Ryan, I've stated many times that I think kundalini is not a different energy from libido or psychic energy, but is an intensified and purified manifestation of the same. Even people who don't know much about kundalini have long maintained a connection between sexuality, creativity and spirituality. One could even cite Jesus' own teaching about becoming a "eunich" for the kingdom of heaven, or Paul's encouragements to celibacy, as examples, in a way. It's all the same energy, imo, only with K we're dealing with a specific orientation -- the embodiment of higher consciousness.

Ryan, thanks for an interesting article.

I don�t know if kundalini energy and sexual energy are the same thing�surely they are deeply related. But it sure seems to me that sexual energy as we commonly think of it awakened in me a long time before the awakening of the kundalini, and that the k. involves my body in very different ways. So, is it an expanded kind of sexual energy? I don�t know.

I do know that it is frustrating to have to "look east" for the language to describe what we are experiencing, and for validation of our experience. Personally, it has made me feel weird, lonely, in doubt of my experience, and reluctant to see it as being of God. What a stumbling block our silence about the connection between spirituality and sexuality puts in the way of the seeker! Yet, when I asked my spiritual director �Why didn�t you tell me about this?!� she just smiled and said that if you�re not ready, not only can you not hear it, but that most people would run the other way. I think she�s right.

During my time at the monastery last week I scoured the library shelves for anything in the western tradition that could help me make sense of the new dimensions that have been unfolding in my spiritual journey. There was not much! Most of the books, either on sexuality or on prayer, either didn�t mention or were very coy about the connection. One, the German mystic Mechtilde of Magdeburg�s �Flowing Light of the Godhead� was pretty amazing in it�s use of sexual imagery to describe Divine love (although in the preface the translator assured the reader that she was describing something strictly spiritual, surely not anything that is actually experienced in the body. Yeah, right!)

I also found an interesting article in Mary Giles� book "The Feminist Mystic". It was written by Dody Donelly, and was entitled �The Sexual Mystic�. She speaks about our sexuality as being created by God, for God, for the purpose of Divine love, with human expression of sexual love as being secondary: �Divine love is the original, human intercourse is the copy.� So � it�s not like God "borrows" our sexuality for occasional deep communication and loving�it�s like God graciously permits us to use God�s own channels to express human love. (Awkwardly put,but I think that's the gist of what she was saying) It made me look at sexuality and also the gift of celibacy in a whole new way.

It also made me think differently about sexual abuse. Part of the terror of this whole experience for me comes from clergy sexual abuse that I experienced when I was 20. The perpetrator, a much older minister and also my boss, mixed prayer and sex in a way that was almost irresistible, and deeply, deeply confusing and guilt-inducing. Sadly, for thousands of women, this is the form that a connection between sexuality and spirituality takes. I thought that he had mixed together two things that didn�t belong together at all, and so when the two recently began to converge in my prayer life, I felt it as a return of the shame and confusion that I felt many years ago. But now I think that what he did was to uncover a sacred connection that wasn�t his to uncover. And I am experiencing wonderful new levels of anger! And wholeness.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb]One could even cite Jesus' own teaching about becoming a "eunuch" for the kingdom of heaven, or Paul's encouragements to celibacy, as examples, in a way. [/qb]

Hi Phil,

I like that phrase, "in a way." The problem/gift those of us Christians with this particular intensification of libido turned toward transformed consciousness is that we see something in the gaps of scripture what probably cannot be seen without such experience. And the experience remains rare.

I think I get what you�re saying about Paul's encouragements to celibacy and Jesus� cryptic statement about some being a eunuchs for the kingdom. It is not so much of a deprivation or somehow shutting down the sexual energy (as it might have appeared in an earlier stage of my life); rather, it has to do with conserving sexual energy and turning it to spiritual purpose.

It is frustrating though that our scriptures don't have more positive and direct to say about the inner workings of such a transformation. Since we are reading in the gaps, we are vulnerable to a criticism of seeing something not intended by the author. No wonder the Kundalini literature provides us with helpful insight and guidance. It is positive and explicit. But then we are dipping into a whole other religious tradition, one that we know very little about.

About reading into the gaps, I was part of an interesting lectio divina/centering meeting Saturday. Our reading was the following from Mark 5:

35"While Jesus was still speaking, some men came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue ruler. "Your daughter is dead," they said. "Why bother the teacher any more?"

36Ignoring what they said, Jesus told the synagogue ruler, "Don't be afraid; just believe."

37He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38When they came to the home of the synagogue ruler, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep." 40But they laughed at him.
After he put them all out, he took the child's father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" ). 42Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat."


I am now seeing the text in terms of our discussion of resurrection and specifically �sex in heaven.� When believers die, as Paul teaches, we are asleep with Christ until the resurrection. That is like Jesus saying, �she is not dead, but asleep.� When she rises, we learn that she is twelve, old enough, or nearly old enough to marry and bear a child, but since she is still in her parent�s care, and is only twelve, we can assume she is a virgin. I wonder, is that suggestive of the character of our resurrection bodies � sexually present, but virginal?

The characterization is, in my view, suggestive of awakening to our latent (that is, not dead but sleeping) capacity for reversal of sexual energies. We are all there in our ordinary biological sexual capacity, but something extraordinarily pure, virginal is recovered within. It is like beatific communion with Christ (signified in giving the girl something to eat). It cannot be understood without experience; thus, we must be careful not to "let anyone know" who might not understand it -- We are already participating in that resurrection, incompletely, of course, but to a rare degree.

Am I reading in the gaps or what?

quote:

Originally posted by revkah:
[qb] ...I asked my spiritual director �Why didn�t you tell me about this?!� she just smiled and said that if you�re not ready, not only can you not hear it, but that most people would run the other way. I think she�s right. [/qb]

Yes, Revkah, I too think she's right.

Last evening after centering prayer I shared a little about my experience and on one level wish I hadn't. The others "ran" to another topic oh so quickly.

Maybe I would do well to share it here.

Over the past year, I've often had the feeling of energy coursing through my body, pulsing and almost bouncing up against my skin and skull. It is like the outside of my body is a barrier. But lately, I've noticed a shift where the energy seems to flow out. Saturday, it happened during centering. The flow of blissful energy was not limited to my skin as I surrendered in ever deepening stages to the flow. It seems like a beneficial shift. I'm grateful.

revkah, What a stumbling block our silence about the connection between spirituality and sexuality puts in the way of the seeker! Yet, when I asked my spiritual director �Why didn�t you tell me about this?!� she just smiled and said that if you�re not ready, not only can you not hear it, but that most people would run the other way. I think she�s right.


Yes indeed, and I hope that means, too, that she really does know something about these connections. Most Christian spiritual directors don't; there's also nothing in their training to prepare them for the kinds of experiences you've shared.

. . .it�s not like God "borrows" our sexuality for occasional deep communication and loving�it�s like God graciously permits us to use God�s own channels to express human love.

That's very nicely put! And I think your continuing reflection on the implications re. sexual abuse are very incisive.
- Sorry to hear of the abuse you experienced from your mentor: But now I think that what he did was to uncover a sacred connection that wasn�t his to uncover. And I am experiencing wonderful new levels of anger!

Wonderful? As in cathartic? Healing?

----------

Ryan: Am I reading in the gaps or what?

Or what!

I'd never thought of that story of the raising of the young girl in the light of spiritualized sexuality, but I can see how one might interpret it so. As you know from previous exchanges on this topic, I think this somewhat occult angle can have merit so long as we hold it in context with other interpretive perspectives -- historical, moral, theological, etc.

. . .lately, I've noticed a shift where the energy seems to flow out. Saturday, it happened during centering. The flow of blissful energy was not limited to my skin as I surrendered in ever deepening stages to the flow. It seems like a beneficial shift. I'm grateful.

I know what you mean. Sometimes it seems as though the physical body is something of an epicenter for a larger, more expansive energy body. The yogic idea of a causal body containing the physical and psychological levels makes sense, here, and resonates with the western notion of the spiritual soul containing the vegetable (physiological) and animal (psychological) souls.
- see http://shalomplace.com/res/bodies.html

�Divine love is the original, human intercourse is the copy.� So � it�s not like God "borrows" our sexuality for occasional deep communication and loving�it�s like God graciously permits us to use God�s own channels to express human love. (Awkwardly put,but I think that's the gist of what she was saying) It made me look at sexuality and also the gift of celibacy in a whole new way."


No surprise that I'd be-labor the developmental angle on this. While I agree entirely with the description, there is the experience of the infant and young child in terms of heart-centered resonance with the parent that seems essential to allow that flow of energy to continue as a primary feature of God's design into later adolescent and adult stages of maturity. I'd wager that the over-genitalized version of sexuality mainly stems from attachment disorder, where the energy in the lower chakras is impeded from reaching the heart, as it is the empathic heart communication between them that allows the child to let go of mother as object and accept her as her, and himself, as their own inviolable selves. Addiction in its various forms is, imo, precisely this: the distortion/disturbance of attachment energy not fulfilling itself in the heart. Now, none of that can be perfect in the fallen human condition, but without the relatively intact attachment experience, severe distortions are likely.

Phil,
Yes, cathartic and healing. There has been such incredible spiritual/sexual/psychological healing in my life in the past year, and it continues. Funny, I didn't enter spiritual direction consciously asking for healing...I had had boatloads of therapy and considered myself pretty healthy. I simply went looking for "more of God"...and look what I got!
I am sure that God led me specifically to this spiritual director, as she not only knows about, but has experienced deeply the connection we are speaking of. Yet one of her gifts is that she has been incredibly patient, letting God unfold in my life, and has never pushed or suggested things that would make me doubt the genuineness of my own experience or wonder if I had been somehow manipulated into it. Having experienced such damaging manipulation in the past, this is a gift.

Ryan �
I had heard this text partially explained in terms of the sexual awakening of the girl, but never quite like you expressed it. We all have to read in the gaps, at least at times, don�t we?
You say, "We are all there in our ordinary biological sexual capacity, but something extraordinarily pure, virginal is recovered within." I really like that. One of my recent responses to re-visiting the clergy sexual abuse was to write a poem about the rape of Bathsheba, who had just emerged from the mikvah bath when David sent for her. It got me to thinking about the ritual of the mikvah, which (if I understand this right) restores a virginal purity to the woman. I found myself wishing that we had an equivalent in the Christian faith, feeling tainted by my experience even though it was so long ago, and longing to be �re-virgined� and pure again. And yet now that I think about it, something like that did happen, within. And that purity was carried into the recent experience with God that has been so amazing to me�it was like God claiming me as my first, my rightful Lover. What a gift of grace.

w.c. - I�m not always sure I follow your developmental stuff. You say, ��there is the experience of the infant and young child in terms of heart-centered resonance with the parent that seems essential to allow that flow of energy to continue as a primary feature of God's design into later adolescent and adult stages of maturity.�
So � what if that was pretty much absent? Because my infant/young child experience of my parents was pretty abusive. Not much heart-centered resonance there.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] this somewhat occult angle can have merit so long as [/qb]

Thanks Phil,

In regard to the word "occult" I think you have used in correctly here, still it is a problem for me: it has a connotation of doing the opposite of holding interpretation "in context with other interpretive perspectives -- historical, moral, theological, etc."

Is there another word? Maybe "secret" or "spiritual" or... here is a new one: "ortho-gnostic."

I'm on vacation for a while. See you in a day or two.

quote:

Originally posted by revkah:
[qb] ...longing to be �re-virgined� and pure again. And yet now that I think about it, something like that did happen, within. [/qb]

Ahh the sheer grace Revkah. I'm touched by your testimony... tears press against my eyes as the cool breeze from the screen door dries my face.

Peace,

w.c. - I�m not always sure I follow your developmental stuff. You say, ��there is the experience of the infant and young child in terms of heart-centered resonance with the parent that seems essential to allow that flow of energy to continue as a primary feature of God's design into later adolescent and adult stages of maturity.� So � what if that was pretty much absent? Because my infant/young child experience of my parents was pretty abusive. Not much heart-centered resonance there."


Revkah:

What I'm describing comes both from the concerns of monks and lay teachers who talk about the way the false self system can interfere with its own dis-integrative process during spiritual growth, where we are being called to aridities and detachments that can activate the deficits in the nervous system, especially with an active kundalini involved. On a practical level, it seems to mean that these deficits prompt a continual search for consolations in response to the nervous systems deficits. Now, I don't mean to imply that God through Christ can't heal these, but it seems that this may be via the "love thy neighbor" dimension of growth, which could include the kind of developmental-based psychotherapy I've been peddling.

So, as we let go through grace, there may be heightened existential and developmental pains complicating the aridities of the spiritual path, especially the apophatic. Having inside us the experience of being held in the heart and mind of another human being may be necessary for such deep surrender. I'd like to think it's not necessary, as a way of saying Christ completes this without need of special human intervention, but again, what I'm hearing from monks and lay teachers really does suggest that developmental, or early relational traumas impacting the nervous system's growth needs a human intervention for its readiness re: spiritual formation.

So a particularly difficult time with addiction as kundalini is stimulated via the Holy Spirit's graces may be an indication the nervous system is needing further and deeper contact via empathetic human resonance in order to engender the containment and self-soothing that makes letting go not re-awaken primary early abandonment reactions, mostly non-verbal and beyond simply knowing where they come from historically. Other indicators of attachment deficit arising during the kundalini process in response to the Holy Spirit might be regressive states that persist, or intense rage and/or sense of entitlement regarding the need to be loved and understood, be cherished, special, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan:
[qb] (re. "occult"

Is there another word? Maybe "secret" or "spiritual" or... here is a new one: "ortho-gnostic." [/qb]

Maybe "esoteric" doesn't have the negative inferences that "occult" does? That works for me.

"Ortho-gnostic" - hmmm . . . Interesting.

w.c.: . . . I'd wager that the over-genitalized version of sexuality mainly stems from attachment disorder, where the energy in the lower chakras is impeded from reaching the heart, as it is the empathic heart communication between them that allows the child to let go of mother as object and accept her as her, and himself, as their own inviolable selves.

What about testosterone, w.c.? When women receive higher doses, they often report an increase in sexual interest, so much so that they want to reduce the levels. Even without the Fall, this would be a bugger to deal with, no? I've often wondered how kundalini affects testosterone levels, and if the "reversal" Ryan and others have alluded to is attended by corresponding reductions in testosterone? Likewise, I've wondered if K awakening in women bumps up their testosterone levels a bit for awhile?

Anyone looking for a really different kind of thesis or doctoral project?

Phil:

Given the function of the heart, per some recent research showing it produces much of the body's dopamine, has its own nervous system and can indirectly prompt, through meditation, increased DHEA in the adrenal glands, I'd wager that testosterone levels would either increase or remain stable, given the relative increases in overall stamina that result from the inversion of kundalini. So while testosterone is mainly produced in the testes and ovaries, the heart seems to alchemize many of these energies and hormones as a kind of regulator.

Of course, one can artificially increase testosterone, but this is dangerous, or in the case of herbs like Cordyceps known to increase it, results in increased "Jing," or Essence of the kindneys/adrenals, which can drive one to horniness unless, as the Chinese describe, the Jing can be converted to Qi and the Qi to Shen in the heart. Shen is described as the heart spirit, which has a unique relationship with the kidneys, viewed as grandmother to mother, I believe.

As for attachment between mother and child, we can see how the attuned (never perfectly) mother helps bring the energy of her child's kidneys to the heart over and over and over again through moments of cherishing eye contact (the largest bundle of nadis or meridians emmanating from the back of the heart chakra connects to the back of the eyes, per the Vedas), both in and through the heart-centered sensuality of breastfeeding (I've heard that children are known to have penal and clitoral erections, and mothers orgastic feelings http://www.ipce.info/booksrebo...s/1994_children.html I'd imagine many mothers not comfortable with their own sexuality and experiencing the power of this connection, especially if they suffer from personality disorders (disconnection of kidney and heart energy), would be frightened of this intensity and cease breastfeeding, or perhaps more rarely exploit their children either physically/sexually or energetically with the need to be needed arising from their own abandonment issues.

Being a man, my perspective is limited, but I've had more and more experience of this energy rising up into my heart, and I can see where a mother who was fairly intact developmentally would understand, instinctively and intuitively, that this wasn't an objectification of her child, but the fullness of attachment feeling reaching its maturity and release in the heart. It would seem that in the heart of the mother the child remains the child and the mother the mother: two seperate people in a dance that is different than adult sexuality. And, it may account for why breastfeeding mothers have less interest in genital oriented sexual relations with their husbands.

All very very taboo.

I do not recall any mention by Phil nor anyone else as to the awareness in the advanced kundalini transformation of the internal formation of an ethereal body woven of light. Some mystics call this invisible luminary "diamond body". I have also heard it described as the light spirit body of Christ.

I my knowing I see such a body within expanding and being lifted in and through me in awareness as I close my eyes and focus my consciousness on this internal body of light. This is another reason as to why the kundalini process is so taxing to the mind and the body. It entails this inner great work of spiritual transformation of the sexual energies transmuting them into spiritual energies everything within is totally transformed body, mind and soul.

I shall never have another orgasm since I heard the Dalai Lama mention once during an interview that light is expelled during an orgasm. I truly believe that the desire for an orgasm has left me after ten years of celibacy, and I certainly refuse to expend one flash of light from within my body. So being celibate or being gifted from God to live a life as an eunich does have certain advantages should one be within a kundalini process. In the advancement stages of kundalini pursuing a sexual union with another not centered in love will only culminate in having the sexual energies settle in the lower sexual area once again. I believe in marriage and in a true love relationship one is protected from this very disappointing lowering of these energies who had avanced in an ascent.

Another major change I am now experiencing is that although I continue to experience a genital penetration that comes from within myself, (I am very tuned in into my body to have realized this sexual penetration does not come from an external source}. I find that I am no longer experiencing this penetration on a sexual level, but instead experience same within my heart. It appears that God has burned away all the sexual pleasures on the lower, purified this area, and that the continued sexual penetration is a necessary part in the continued lifting of these energies into the higher levels by their transmutation. So it is God who in His graces is giving to me in a sexual union what I would otherwise be receiving from a married partner. My soul has truly returned to Her true love and bridegroom.

Also as Revkah pointed out the sexual joys experienced are also God's healing love from her sexual abuses in the past. This is also a gift of healing for me from God. Any kind of sexual abuse can shut down the sexual area making it almost frozen since there is a tremendous amount of emotions and feelings within that center. One is incapable of advancing in a k integration until this very center is healed and alive once again.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by w.c.:
"So, as we let go through grace, there may be heightened existential and developmental pains complicating the aridities of the spiritual path, especially the apophatic. Having inside us the experience of being held in the heart and mind of another human being may be necessary for such deep surrender...the nervous system is needing further and deeper contact via empathetic human resonance in order to engender the containment and self-soothing that makes letting go not re-awaken primary early abandonment reactions"

w.c.-
This is starting to make sense to me, as I find just those issues (abandonment) rising up with a new ferocity that is stunning to me. I wondered where all this was coming from, and why now. So, you're saying it's a byproduct of spiritual growth and the movement toward deep surrender to God? (At least for those of us whose needs weren't met in childhood)

I know that in marriage, I am truly "held in the mind and heart" of my husband, but it doesn't seem to be enough, or the right kind of intimacy. I keep yearning for a Mother. Lately, I have found myself longing for, yet also resisting, a much deeper connection with my spiritual director. I really resist feeling dependent on anyone, and I have begun to feel like I need her in ways that make me afraid and ashamed of my neediness. We have just begun to talk about this, and it is moving our work together to a deeper level. I continue to wonder if I should be doing this work in therapy instead, but I keep coming back to my sense that this is spiritual work, not just psychological, and it would take an extraoridnary therapist, one who understands mysticism and awakened kundalini, one who has advanced far in his or her own spiritual journey.

Meanwhile, here is the puzzle for me -- I am so obviously a raw beginner on this path, so obviously still attached to the false self, I wonder why I have been given such an incredible, intimate sense of connection with Divine Love...even just a taste of it. Is that a "consolation"? I can see where a constant search for such consolations would completely side-track one; if they are sheer gifts of grace, then we can't control them. But I surely am grateful (amazed!)at each one that comes to me. It's grace that keeps me going.