Freebird, like you my kundalini awakened without having prior knowledge about it and I have never been engaged in any spiritual rituals. This doesn't mean k awakens in any person at any time. In order k awakens in us naturally our personality must be balanced both psycologically, physically, mentally and emotionally. I don't think k awakens in unbalanced personality unless it is forced.

Phil,

OK, I�ve read Ray Browns appendix on virginal conception found in his book �The Birth of the Messiah.� He regards the conception by the Holy Spirit as �non-sexual.� That in contrast to parallels in world religion or myth that he says, �consistently involve a type of heirs games where a divine male, in human or other form, impregnates a woman, either through normal sexual intercourse or through some substitute form of penetration.�
I feel chastened for my flip comments earlier about the virginal conception.

Following your lead, Phil in turning to reflection on the new birth in Christ, my attention has shifted to John 1:12,

��to all who did accept him, he empowerd to become children of God. That is, those who believe in his name -- who were begotten, not of blood or of carnal desire, nor by man�s desire, but of God.�

Here all believers are in a figurative sense begotten of God. While I could affirm that claim before my rapturous awakening to inner energy, I never felt so palpably �begotten of God� before that night. �I� was noticeably freed, at least for a brief blessed time, from carnal desire. �I� still had my memory of my past, but was, by grace, given a fresh beginning. What is affirmed by all believers by faith, was given to me, that night, by experience.

That was the night I knew there was an experience "better" even than the best sex -- a build-up more pleasurable than intercourse, a climax more ultimate than orgasm, an afterglow that transcends by far the passing satisfaction of the refractory period. But unlike the sex I had experienced, I had not sought this out. It was simply given. And not of my choosing. Rapture�s etymological association rape seems apt. It was an initially terrifying violent, sudden overthrow of my resistance by a greater power. But unlike rape by a human, it seemed entirely justified and beneficial � a gift of God reflective of reversals in the beatitudes.

In times like this, I�m glad to be writing under a name that is not my public name. For although I�m not proud of what happened in the sense that I might be proud of an accomplishment, I have a sense that it could appear that way and evoke envy. So I have learned not to talk openly about it.

However, on this forum, I know that there are others with similar experiences, so here it seems more fitting to share. I hope that is so.

Ryan,

How well I understand you, not with human ears, but with the understanding of the internal spirit.

quote:

"....to all, who did accept him, he empowered to become children of God. That is those who believe in his name.........who were begotten, not of blood or of carnal desire, nor by man's desire, but of God."
------------------------------

You have described our new births as spirits. Hallelujah!. "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit." We will see Christ as He is because we shall be like Him, the most glorious Spirit Son, our elder brother who beckons us to come and share the throne with Him and the inheritance from our Father who is Spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and in truth.

Thank you Ryan for all your contribution in sharing. Like myself, we hope and pray that our experiences given so lovingly will help others with a deeper understanding as to who we truly are, spirit.

Within the last couple of months I am experiencing a deep awareness of not needing nor clinging to my physical body. It is a school house that encloses spirit for the sole purpose of learning lessons here on earth. I rarely look into the mirror to look at this school house, since I know that I live and soar higher than the eagles with the wings of spirit.

Did I truly experience death before being birthed anew. Absolutely, it was not just the mention of death as a symbol, but a true death where I descended into hell sharing the words of Christ: "my soul is utmost sorroful unto death". Thereafter the quickening of God's Holy Spirit gave a new life and birth to me in rising anew with the wings of spirit.

The only ones who read my message and understand are the ones who also have embraced this death, for they know within their being the very reality of this death and being birthed anew as spirit by the incorruptible holy seed given by God, our Heavenly Father.
-----------------------------
Thank you Grace for mentioning the gift of the Holy Spirit and kundalini in the birthing of the Christ spirit/body of light within us, which grows daily in its image and likeness of our spirit brother Christ, as we wait for the day to lay at His feet all of our love and our crowns. He is worthy to receive all and everything for His sacrifice in making it possible for us to be born anew. For He is the King of Kings who came to give us eternal life in and through Him. His precious gift is given to all who believe in His name. Amen.

quote:

Originally posted by Freebird:
[qb] Did I truly experience death before being birthed anew. Absolutely, it was not just the mention of death as a symbol, but a true death where I descended into hell sharing the words of Christ: "my soul is utmost sorroful unto death". Thereafter the quickening of God's Holy Spirit gave a new life and birth to me in rising anew with the wings of spirit. The only ones who read my message and understand are the ones who also have embraced this death...[/qb]

Thanks Freebird, you are more fluent in this language of spirit than me. I like your point about the sorroful death before rebirth.

What I didn't mention in the account above is that I thought I was really literally dying. And in a sense, I did die. After a flash of overwhealming compassion for all mortal humanity, I had a sense symultaneously dying and being raised up in glory. Then when I found myself alive again, in beatitude, it was like being, by sheer grace, begotten of spirit and in a sense, "resurrected." I died to the flesh and was raised in the spirit.

Ryan's quote:

........it was like being, by sheer grace, begotten of spirit and in a sense, "resurrected." I died to the flesh and was raised in spirit.
---------------------------------
Ryan, great spiritual awareness within you in the realization that there had to be a death before the "resurrection" and new life received of spirit by the graces of God. The hardest thing is to die to the flesh before the raising of the spirit's "resurrection. Apostle Paul speaks of his own battles.

Do you recall having a choice in this death of the flesh?, or was it something that just happened. Wish you would share a bit about the dying of the flesh, if you can.

I remember the death pangs so vividly and my state of frenzy in choosing death and surrender to spirit over the life of the flesh. I truly experienced the greatest battle in my life before my full surrender to death of the flesh, and finally the love and the flowing of bliss and joy of the spirit. The desire for both was so overwhelming until the final death pangs of the flesh were defeated by the power and love of spirit. The death process was long and agonizing, a state of being for many months, which started many years before. One must truly go through same to understand it because it is so difficult to put into words for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Freebird:
[qb]
Do you recall having a choice in this death of the flesh?, or was it something that just happened. Wish you would share a bit about the dying of the flesh, if you can.
[/qb]

That is a helpful question, one that I have already thought about some, but more is coming. Choices. The first choice was the choice for Christ. I chose to be a Christian as a child and was baptized at 12. Once, during young adulthood I despaired and mentally gave up my baptismal vows. But months later, my soul-life an emotional wreck, I recommitted myself to Christ.

Then there were other choices such as embracing infertility, accepting my sense of call to leave paid employment for a time... these were life choices that put me more in touch with my mortal limitations.

When the moment came of feeling I was actually dying, it was fast and a surprise as death so often is.

From Grace: Phil, I think we have to differentiate between Kundalini with Holy Spirit and kundalini without Holy Spirit. According to my understanding the first one is more related to the emergence of Self-consciousness while the later one has to do with embodying the energy/spirit of Christ in our body. Faith and baptism is the crux of the process and kundalini with Holy Spirit consolidate our faith in Christ. For this reason, I believe, kundalini if it is properly guided by Holy Spirit can be essential for our growth in Christ. Please correct me if I�m wrong.

I agree. That's how I see things as well, Grace. Nevertheless, I cannot rule out the influence of the Spirit in those who do not explicitly profess Christ, and so on that point I wish to remain non-judgmental.

Ryan: OK, I�ve read Ray Browns appendix on virginal conception found in his book �The Birth of the Messiah.� He regards the conception by the Holy Spirit as �non-sexual.� That in contrast to parallels in world religion or myth that he says, �consistently involve a type of heirs games where a divine male, in human or other form, impregnates a woman, either through normal sexual intercourse or through some substitute form of penetration.�
I feel chastened for my flip comments earlier about the virginal conception.

That's OK. No one really fully understands how the pregnancy of Jesus came about; it's really a mystery.

I'm not entirely following some of the sharing about death. Psychic death experiences are one thing, but actual death is another. I don't see how anyone can claim to have experineced that as long as they are typing on computers with their physical bodies.

Later . . . I'm in the midst of an excellent workshop on the teachings of Bernard Lonergan.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] Psychic death experiences are one thing, but actual death is another. I don't see how anyone can claim to have experineced that as long as they are typing on computers with their physical bodies. [/qb]

That is a fair question, Phil,

Is it not the same as anytime we talk about our baptism in the language of participation in the death and resurrection of Christ? Ordinary, orthodox language, is it not? It is real in the sense that one dies to the old self in baptism: real by participation in the death of Christ. It was already real by faith. The experience adds a further dimension of spiritual awareness.

Lonergan. My John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila teacher, John Welsh, often quoted Lonergan with great admiration. I confess I never caught the Lonergan bug. Rahner made more sense to me.

Ryan, I agree that there are rebirths like that of baptism, faith, conversion, kundalini, etc. that entail deaths that are very real, and maybe even more difficult to consent to than physical death. Deaths to "identity states," in particular, can be horrifying, and very real.

I guess what I was trying to say is that all these deaths and rebirths are part of the paschal mystery, and something of a preparation for the final letting go into God that will come when we move on without a body. No matter what how far we've advanced in spiritual development, I don't think we have the foggiest idea what that will be like. As Paul noted, "eye has not seen, ear has not heard, the marvels that God has prepared for those who love Him." So long as we still live in the body, even our spiritual consciousness is conditioned by life in the body. And the way I understand resurrection is that we are metaphysically deficient without one (just as much as the body is without the soul) . . . that to be fully human in the afterlife, we will be given a body like the one Christ had after he rose (a body that is not angelic or purely spiritual).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:
[QB] I believe we are born anew in Christ through baptism and faith whether we experience K or not. This rebirth happens primarily in the spiritual part of our human nature (the soul), and grows as the mind and will advance in truth and love, respectively. In time, this growth comes to transform the emotional and intellectual roots of our nature through the dark nights of sense and spirit. Eventually (in some, but not all), it even overflows into the body itself, and that's where k comes in. With the awakening of the K process (which might even take place during one of the dark nights), the body itself becomes transformed in such a manner as to better accommodate the intensified and purified psychic energy of the higher Self. This emergence of Self is mediated by Christ through his union with Ego, and facilitated by the Holy Spirit, whose intelligence guides the process of inner transformation... As the body itself comes to participate more and more in the love relationship with God, even one's sexuality becomes caught up in the process.


Hello Phil,Ryan and all,
My this discussion has gone some interesting places in the past couple of days! I have been following with interest but unable to reply due to being somehow locked out (I tried to change my password but also somehow disabled the board's ability to communicate with me...something to do with "cookies"...don't ask.) Thanks to Phil I am back in communication, but it sure looks like, for a discussion of k and sex, this has gotten extremely heady!

I really appreciate the capsule summary above, Phil. It also fits personally, as for me the k was awakened within a dark night experience, which made it even more confusing, I think. At a time when God seemed very absent and prayer seemed very dry, here was this amazing body energy, and part of it was an equally amazing beginning of healing of my sexuality, which was the LAST thing I would have imagined God had in mind for me, but which was achingly needed. What a gift! And as I reflect on why some Christians experience k awakening and so many don't, I come back to thinking that we're given what we most need...in my case, it was to get my body "on board" with my spirituality, so that I could be a whole person. The utterly amazing nature of the k experience was perfectly suited to do an "end run" around my intellect, humble me, and prepare me for..who knows what lies ahead? Already there have been moments of such incredibly bliss and rapture that if God never did another thing for me, it would be enough. And yet I think I have only just begun ot taste this Love.

Phil and Ryan,
I have heard of Bernard Lonergan, but am not familiar with his thought. Any links you can give me?
Revkah

And as I reflect on why some Christians experience k awakening and so many don't, I come back to thinking that we're given what we most need...in my case, it was to get my body "on board" with my spirituality, so that I could be a whole person. The utterly amazing nature of the k experience was perfectly suited to do an "end run" around my intellect, humble me, and prepare me for..who knows what lies ahead?

That could be straight out of one of my journals, revkah. That's pretty much how I've come to view the meaning of the K process in my own life. As to why this doesn't happen to most, I don't know. But neither do I fully understand why some come to faith and some don't, why some become contemplatives and some don't. Even John of the Cross was left scratching his head about some of these questions.

Re. Lonergan, I'll start a new thread on the theology and morality forum. As you noted, this one has already been through enough divergent twists and turns.

Phil's quote:

The Christ is birthed in us through faith and baptism with or without k rising..........
--------------------------------

In my defense, I clearly state that this is my intepretation which may or may not agree with any of you. Phil mentions that I am turning into a Gnostic teacher, which may be true. Phil, I am not certain about your above quote. Kundalini is new to Christianity and well known in the Eastern religions. Way too much spiritual pride within Christianity judges our brothers and sisters from the Eastern religions. The "word" of God is in all children, and we are all the children of God.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever.

Christ tells us that we must be born again. God did not make any separation in His giving of seeds. The incorruptible seed of a new birth in Christ can come alive in a Christian and anyone else of another faith. We all together must go through the same experience of birthing anew, Christian and non-Christian alike. It is also true that no matter how much someone loves Christ, has been baptized, follows a good life abstaining from sinning, etc., there may not be a new birth forthcoming in some Christians and non-Christians.

In the Garden of Eden there are two trees, one that offers life and one that brings death. After Adam and Eve fell the Lord takes them out of the garden so that they would not eat of the tree of life, which is the incorruptible seed giving you eternal life and new birth as promised by Christ, the birth of spirit.

Even in this instance there are some unique types of the word of God. For example those cherubims are waving a flaming sword. Jeremiah 20:9 is saying: Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak anymore in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary and forbearing, and I could not say. God's Word is a consuming fire, and the the sword that the cherubims are waving is in Ephesians 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

To get to the tree of life, we have to go through the flaming sword, the word of God, then we receive our new birth, the incorruptible seed of life. We must eat of the tree of life and then there is water flowing out of it that will cleanse us of all sin.

"Thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart, for I am called by thy name, O Lord God of hosts.

We have no right whatsoever to say to our Eastern brothers and sisters that your k awakening, integration and transformation needs what we as Christians tell you that you need, since they also must go through the fire and the flaming sword of the Spirit, just they same as we do. No one gets to eat from this tree of life and receives their new birth as Christ any other way. In my k process I am most aware of the oneness of us all and the pure spirit of God's love. God, the Father works with us all in a personal relationship and one by one we are redeemed through the narrow gate.

Everyone else who does not receive the new birth will also be made alive by the quickening of the spirit.

1Corinthians 15: 42-45
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness and it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body. it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, the first Adam was a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

We live, all of us. We are all the children of the Most High God. In His love, graces and mercy He does give some of us the promised new birth, and the rest of us are raised from death by His quickening Spirit, all loved by His Divine love.

My love flows and embraces all of God's Creations.
-------------------------

The last few months I am becoming aware of the lifting of the veil and the opening of my third eye.

In my defense . . .

Freebird, I was only pointing out that the Church has never understood our rebirth in Christ to entail kundalini transformation, and that to hold such a position would be very much akin to gnosticism . . . that only those who've had certain "experiences" have the true inner knowledge, resurrected life, etc.

The incorruptible seed of a new birth in Christ can come alive in a Christian and anyone else of another faith. We all together must go through the same experience of birthing anew, Christian and non-Christian alike.

If, by that, you mean to be saying kundalini transformation, I disagree. There is a common pattern of spiritual transformation found among the world religions, but they do not all lead to the same kind of understanding and experience of God . . . which is why there are different religions.

It is also true that no matter how much someone loves Christ, has been baptized, follows a good life abstaining from sinning, etc., there may not be a new birth forthcoming in some Christians and non-Christians.

Why would they love Christ and abstain from sinning if some kind of new birth has not happened?

Maybe we should just drop this topic and move on. I'm happy you've shared what you have about your experiences, and the discussion on kundalini and sexuality is very important, imo. How we theologize about that is another matter.

Phil, the topic was moving along beautifully until you stirred it into another direction and we started to get enmeshed into your desired direction in trying to explain kundalini in terms of science, theology, and philosophy, which were your topics.

I feel this original topic is of great importance in helping people to share their experiences, receive guidance and to hear that they are not alone, but have a place to turn to.

I would appreciate in keeping this topic open for it is a great service. If you feel otherwise, that is your decision.