I am doing a lot of self examination these days. my wife continues to talk about leaving and we get to the brink of seperation and then stop. I am also confronted with my weaknesses and mistakes daily.

I am doing a lot of self examination these days. my wife continues to talk about leaving and we get to the brink of seperation and then stop. I am also confronted with my weaknesses and mistakes daily.

Well, it would seem clear that she (probably you too) wants something to walk out that door and not come back, but it isn't you, per se. If you could both agree on what that thing is, what that behavior is, what would it be? And what thing about you wife could walk out that front door and you'd never miss it? Talk to her.

The Big Book has a Chapter to the Wives and another
for The Family Afterward. She has to work on her own stuff. If she changes partners, she will likely have the same stuff to work on, unless she has a psychic change. You seem about average as far as twelve steppers go. Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, but the promises always come if we work for them.

Happy Easter and our prayers are with you!

Marriage counseling, Br. Jaan?

When you get a hold of this thing and the power it can work within you, you will feel very different than you do now, but there will still be problems and bad days. Hang in there until the miracle happens.

your freind,

michael

I agree that marriage counseling will be a good idea down the road. Currently both of are counselors feel we need to tackle the personal issues at the root of my acting out, her mental illness and the codependency and dependency in the marriage. Joanne is staying but is uncertain what she wants. I also have some choices ahead of me. I am looking at returning to the Episcopal Parish that taught me liturgy because the Parish is smaller the people know what I have done and still associate with me and has a community feel and the liturgy has more of a vertical feeling than its modern catholic counterpart.

I agree that marriage counseling will be a good idea down the road. Currently both of are counselors feel we need to tackle the personal issues at the root of my acting out, her mental illness and the codependency and dependency in the marriage. Joanne is staying but is uncertain what she wants. I also have some choices ahead of me. I am looking at returning to the Episcopal Parish that taught me liturgy because the Parish is smaller the people know what I have done and still associate with me and has a community feel and the liturgy has more of a vertical feeling than its modern catholic counterpart.

oops it appears I posted twice.

Currently both of are counselors feel we need to tackle the personal issues at the root of my acting out, her mental illness and the codependency and dependency in the marriage. Joanne is staying but is uncertain what she wants. I also have some choices ahead of me.

In my experience, people who concentrate on looking for "roots" of acting out are pleasantly guaranteeing themselves that they can continue to act out with impunity. Those roots can be horribly difficult to ever, err, root out, and deep down we know that. By waiting around for "causes" we convince ourselves we are doing something and the side benefit is that we don't have to change and we can continue to indulge our acting out.

You two just need to take responsibility for your actions and, at the very least, lower the pressure and temperature immediately (not tomorrow, not next week, and not when some counselor has supposedly figured it all out) by simply putting a stop to doing the things (and you know what these things are) that each of you are doing to make each other miserable. If you discover, after the smoke has cleared after the cease fire, that there is no love left well then make some of those hard choices. But any choice made now I think is just made in a fog.

Best regards to you, Br. Jaan, but it's time to s**t or get off the pot. Either your marriage is worth saving or it isn't. It's not an idea that has to be look at "down the road". It either is or isn't.

I guess if I were to wiegh everything I would have to admit I am still stuck between steps 1 thru 3 and feeling that I am making little progress.

Br. Jaan, feeling like you are making little progress is one thing, but how do you evaluate that?

A. If you're remaining abstinent, that's a good sign.

B. If you're still working the Steps, going to meetings, etc., that's good, too.

C. If, in addition, you're pursuing other avenues for growth and healing (e.g., counseling), that's good.

So you just have to keep going and let your being find ways to shed the old, addictive ways in favor of the new self born of the Spirit.

There is a navigational metaphor that frequently comes to mind. Even if my life is one degree off true north, after a number of years I can find myself to have drifted very far from it, and if I wish with all my heart to reach true north, am I willing to give the recovery process the same amount of time and energy I so enthusiastically put into drifting?

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

How many apple trees are in one seed? I don't know,
but I went to a memorial today for a truly great and humble man who "graduated" from 36 years of helping other people to help other people. There were 600 in attendance and another 900 or so who could not make it because of up to three feet of snow. Lots of Kleenex, laughter and fellowship!

How can a convicted felon become so beloved to such a large number of family and freinds? Amazing grace!

I hope that I can scrape up six freinds to carry the box!

johnnyappleseed.com

I hope that I can scrape up six freinds to carry the box!

A box? Luxury! I'll be lucky to be buried in a cellophane bag.

I could sell myself as a cadaver for medical students, which would not require a box or a friend...

There is a company catering to the Beverly Hills set
which can compress under horrific pressure the ashes
into a diamond, and set it in jewelry so grandpa can be forever wrapped around your finger.

Don was a very wealthy man. He had love, which as the Fab Four know is all you need. They played Elvis' The Garden and Willy Nelson's Amazing Grace.

Don said that love was ACTIVE concern for another.
I kind of like that philosophy.

ohwhataluckymanhewas.com

P.S. (I think he had a Yorkshire terrier)


How did the twelve-step approach evolve?

http://dickb.com/articles/oxford_roots_dsb.shtml

I liked all of the reponses. I guess the biggest issue I face is my job and feelings of frustration and anger with myself and the situation at home. I guess this would be the Third step or my need to let go and embrace God and the fourth and fifth part of the amends making process. My counselor thinks a lot of my issues stem from my inability to focus and living in a lot of fear. He feels that I have ADHD I am not sure but would explain some things.

I know what Joanne wants a husband who is not broken and healthy. I am niether of these things. Are relationship has many strands of codependency that have reinforced are negative behaviors and addictions so as I pull away to find healing Joanne's anxiety worsens.

Are relationship has many strands of codependency that have reinforced are negative behaviors and addictions so as I pull away to find healing Joanne's anxiety worsens.

Br. Jaan, I think you�ve just outlined one of the most difficult things about addiction. We know we need to change, but the rest of the world, at least when it comes to people, is very conservative. It likes people to remain just as they are. But it gets worse. If other people have their own problems, particularly with addiction, then any change that we make threatens to expose and undermine their whole support/delusional system. It can get so crazy that if feels like the only way we�ll ever be able to successfully change is if, first, the entire world agrees to change right along with us, otherwise any one person could undermine us anywhere along the way.

Happily this is not so and is where the 12 step program perhaps shows it�s real strength. You can remain in contact with people who are not unhealthy to be around and who will help to lift you up when you feel down. They will help you to see that the world is right-side up when all your crazy friends insist that it is upside down.

But ultimately each person must take responsibility for him or herself. To let someone else make you responsible for their problems is to rob you of your life AND to rob them of their life. You must come to terms with this. You must recognize that it is not selfish to take care of yourself first. It is not abandoning anyone to take steps toward recovery. The best will happen for everyone in the end if you do what is right.

Take a moment to think about those small things in your life that bring you some semblance of peace, even if they are just passing moments. I read somewhere once that the things that are best for us are the things that bring us peace. Alternately, the things that aren�t good for us don�t bring us peace. See if right now you�re not pounding your head against the wall in an attempt, for possibly the thousandth time, to make the things that have always, without fail, given you grief give you peace. It won�t happen. It can�t happen. And although needed change isn�t going to feel particularly peaceful in the short run, keep an eye out for it. It will start to happen in small bursts, here and there. Be keenly aware of it. You�ll want to catch hold of those moments and protect them. They represent your life.

I have not posted in a while because I started a new position. In some areas I have seen slippage in my program do to my inability to attend meetings. One character defect I have is fear and when I make time for prayer and meditation or just to connect with God my addiction has a weaker pull on me.
One of the biggest struggles I have is with codependency in my marriage. Both of us struggle with it.

I have not posted in a while because I started a new position. In some areas I have seen slippage in my program do to my inability to attend meetings.

Brother Jaan, don�t make me be hard on you. Miss breakfast. Miss the bus. Miss a morning meeting. Miss the latest episode of CSI. Heck, even misbehave, but don�t miss those 12-step meetings. But if you do, and if you must, then please recognize that it may not be fear driving you. It may be the fact there that are some things you don�t want to give up, that you�ve become quite comfortable with. Yes, we really can become quite comfortable with the things that cause us pain. That is because they, at least, are known and familiar things.

When you are ready to change you will start the process. But for god�s sake, don�t add to your feelings of failure or pressure because of how you�re doing in a 12-step program. You see how crazy that could make anyone feel? It�s a horrible thought to be thinking, "I�m so screwed up I can�t even do a simple 12-step program."

First, you gotta lighten up on yourself. Second, you�ve got to recognize that it isn�t fear, per se. It�s just a matter of readiness, which is another way of saying that you don�t have to worry about the fear going away before you can improve your life. Yeah, we all have fears and they can be RAGING fears at times. But fears aren�t the only thing motivating us, although it can seem that way sometimes. Our fears will sort of spread out and cover the other factors and motivations that are involved. In fact, you�re talking to a world class fraidy-cat himself. But you might just be surprised how we lose the fear, or how unimportant it becomes once we start to get to our truths, once we start stumbling upon the things that are really important to us. Then we�ll recognize that much of the fear (not all of it, for sure) was simply a wall between what we didn�t want and our true selves. We learn that the fear is not some hundred pound gorilla on our shoulders that we can never escape, that it is not some inherent reflection of our weaknesses. We learn that it was there all along protecting us and guiding us.

Lighten up. Back off a bit, and give it another go when you�re ready, Brother Jaan. Remember, your emotions are your most important guide. If your fear is too strong right now then back off a little. Don�t countermand yourself. That�s usually the type of thing we did which got us into our codependent and dysfunctional predicament in the first place. But do give yourself over to god and then just see what happens. I think you�ll be pleased with the result over time.

Brad:

Cold turkey, huh?

Shut up. And a good morning to you too, WC.

I am hoping my reply can be seen had some problems with the website.

That makes me upset the website ate my post. Anyway Brad hit the bullseye. I am at times consumed by fear and anxiety. I guess this is a good time to list my personal defects that lead me to my addiction and ultimately seperate me from God and those I love.
Fear
Anxiety
isolation
compulsive behavior such as constant ebook making at the expense of my program
Fatalist thinking and dreaming
These come to my mind as the main things that derail my program and relationships.

quote:

Fear
Anxiety
isolation
compulsive behavior such as constant ebook making at the expense of my program
Fatalist thinking and dreaming
These come to my mind as the main things that derail my program and relationships.

Each one of those can be see as a positive as well, brother Jaan.

Fear: We usually think of this as being between us and what we want. But very often it is between us and what we may want but that we don't need or should have. Let go of deciding what you want and then see what things are placed before you. Fear will generally be engaged for things that we may want for the wrong reasons, such as because we see other people have them, stuff like that.

Isolation: Thank goodness I'm not inundated by chattering friends who just won't give me any peace and quiet. I'm a quiet person by nature. But you might just be surprised how we arrange for ourselves (or they are arranged) the things we like, even if we don't know it. Oh, we surely are lonely and hurting, but that loneliness likely is not estrangement from other people. It's estrangement from ourselves. We've got to get to know ourselves again. To be friends. Other friends will then follow if that is what we need and truly desire. But "not wanting to be alone" is not the same thing as wanting a bunch of friends and family around us. And if you want to take the fast-track to licking this problem, just take an honest look around you at the world. People everywhere, seemingly almost to the one, are isolated. Take a look into the eyes of a cashier next time you're at the grocery store. Or a bank teller. Or a fellow waiting for the bus. You'll see isolation. Break that isolation with whatever spontaneously flow out of your heart. But don't force it. We're never alone, if only because we all so isolated. That's rather ironic, but it's largely true. I consider myself an expert observer of human nature and I see so much of it that it can almost be a drag. I try to work on connecting to people, even if just in small ways�both for my benefit and theirs.

Compulsive behavior: Thanks goodness we have that passionate energy still waiting in reserve. It's trying to find an outlet but we haven't quite put anything on its plate that is very appetizing because it's usually not OUR stuff to begin with. It's probably somebody else's. There's always a lot of sorting to do in this regard. When we do OUR stuff and get past the feeling of someone looking over our shoulder and criticizing us, things flow much more naturally. Let go a bit to what you think should be and stuff will start to flow in�very slowly but it will flow. That compulsive stuff is just a sign you have a great spirit for living.

Fatalist thinking: Only a fool could look out into the world and see anything but terror and tragedy. Only a severely deluded fool could look at these fragile minds and bodies we have in the midst of this hostile world and not think fatalist thoughts. That's baseline. That's normal. But brother Jaan, you've already done what so many people are so afraid to do: face your fears. You're thinking things that so few have the guts to admit. Why do you do this? Because deep down you're willing to face any kind of fear if it means positive change. Let me just say that it will not be necessary to traumatize yourself 24-hours-a-day by facing fears. Let go to god and see what flows in. Stuff will flow in. You don't have to traumatize yourself. If you are then you know it's not the right path.

Derail my program and relationships: From what I hear there *is* no derailing of that program. There is no perfect way to do it. Everybody does it different. Some, like me, don't do it at all because that's not my thing. Maybe it's not your thing either. Don't force yourself to do something you're not ready for. Maybe all you need is one willing and compassionate listener. You're unique so it might take only 4 steps or it might take 24 steps or it might take some steps not yet invented. It normal stuff ain't working for you then maybe you're not so normal, and I mean that in decidedly a good way. As for relationships, I think I can honestly count on my fingers (don't need my toes) all the good relationships I've seen in all my years. Most relationships seem to be either biological habits, ways to escape being alone, or ways for two people to creatively recreate the misery of their childhood years. Those who want something more, something more meaningful, get on public bulletin boards like this one and scream for a way to do so. Those who can't see past their own nose (and don't want to) deny that anything better can exist. Brother Jaan, you're already halfway there by trying, hoping and dreaming. But cultivate patience. And I do recommend you read and take to heart Abandonment to Divine Providence. It's working for me. Slowly.