Whether is feels like the twelve-step olympics or
Special Olympics, it's a real kick in the behind. Just hung out with some old timers. One of them has cared for a wife with dementia for 15 years of their half-century together. This is the kind of fruit that long time recovery can bring. He is joyful. If you want what he has, do the work. It is so worth it, and so are you, bryann! <*)))))><

caritas, MM really!

I guess I caused some issues in my reply .
Lately I have been focusing on the rule of St Benedict which I am finding helpful in my recovery and life. I have been reading heavily about obedience fidelity wishing I had read it years ago.

I guess I caused some issues in my reply

Brother Jaan, I don�t think there�s anyone here that doesn�t have great sensitivity to the healing power of someone speaking their mind. I don�t think you need to walk on eggshells here. Goodness, that would just sort of be opposite to what any of us who have had addictions needs to do. And the other thing I always recommend is humor. It may be God�s special gift to us in that, no matter how high the sh*t is that we�re in, a joke can transcend that and, if only for a moment, put a smile on our faces and let us forget our troubles. Or as MM would no doubt say�.

www.deepsh*t.com

I don�t think you need to walk on eggshells here. Goodness, that would just sort of be opposite to what any of us who have had addictions needs to do.

I copied that statement and put it on my desktop. Certainly speaks to me.

Certainly speaks to me.

I get a kick out of that, Tate. Really, I know I'm too much of an ideologue. I tend to be argumentative, so it's not very often I say something that speaks to anyone, at least on a level that matters. There's always hope, I guess.

Benedict's rule was intended to be attainable by the average individual. That was the whole idea, about average and doable, yet, it seems quite ambitious for the average undisciplined twelve-stepper. Real Jedi stuff to follow The Rule, which is why I admire
Padres Merton and Keating, Pennington and Menninger and Theophane so much. Order of Cistercians of the
Strict Observance. I don't do strict very well, and
have a distinct tendency not to play well with others. I still get very nervous around cops and other authority figures.

Maybe I could become an oblate or a Third Order somethingorother,oh, brother!

I'm so great-full that it's a program of steps, as is a thousand mile journey, since I'm quite certain that I could never make the leap!

day@atime.org

Brad, on your "Public Enema" thread, I often felt you spoke to me. For instance:

It was then and there that there was no longer any question in my mind that I do not want to hide from the world. I want to learn how to exist in it.

I cried because it's what my heart says to me too. After years of trying to escape the world, I TRULY want to learn how not only to exist, but to live and flourish on this beautiful planet. Only I can't seem to find the niche, place, vocation, community, whatever that is right for me. So I just keep doing the best I can, trying to abandon myself to God's will.

Oh, and since this is the 12-step thread, I'll share that tonight I went to my first 12-step meeting that uses a Christian workbook. I've been attending regular 12-step meetings for a couple months now. Tonight though was the first time in over 15 years that I went to church with my bible in hand. I felt shakey because my church experiences (as I've shared in other posts) has not been so good. I was hoping for a positive experience but, well, sadly I really didn't like the meeting.

Maybe I could become an oblate or a Third Order somethingorother,oh, brother!

Seriously, Michael, I'm convinced that there's room in this world for something new, something not particularly traditional but still respectful, soulful and deep. Perhaps this could be done virtually. What if one started a thread and called it a Virtual Monastery/Convent (surely the two may be mixed in this context)? There would be rules. Procedures. Traditions. Sort of like the care and maintenance of a virtual pet, if you know what I mean. Each day you would give a small sermon and perhaps words to meditate on/by would be posted. Heck, even post a picture of a lighted candle at a certain time.

Stretch your spiritual and mystical muscles, MM. You seem to have such a deep calling for such things. Just an idea. You can own the patent.

Only I can't seem to find the niche, place, vocation, community, whatever that is right for me. So I just keep doing the best I can, trying to abandon myself to God's will.

We really ought to have t-shirts printed up with those words on it, front and back. I think you'd have people stopping you on the street and saying how they could relate to that. I've been searching since I was probably about 12 years old for that niche, place, vocation, community, whatever, and I mean that sincerely. And I know I�m not alone. Perhaps it's all about knowing how to search and particularly what to search for. Because we're so handily equipped with tons of automatic, instinctive responses to life (and this is fortunate because life is constantly throwing us tons of things we have to instantly respond to), it is with good reason that it is often only later in life that we begin to have some idea of the what, let alone the how. We need a chance to catch our breath. And it may seem strange, but I think whether talking about a cult, an addiction, a few bad marriages, or whatever, we seem to need these things. We need to hit our heads against the wall at least a couple times to learn that running faster, trying harder, thinking deeper, and living louder are usually not the paths to peace, that more is not the answer, that another paradigm or scheme if what we need.

I told someone the other day that life is very much a case of eat or be eaten. Or as the old proverb goes, "You eat life or life eats you." One need only spend five minutes looking at how nature works to see the truth in this. This is how things are. This is the paradigm that is most obvious and that usually first confronts us. It seems an inescapable dichotomy. We surely are quite aware of this, especially if we have been preyed upon and the people who did the preying seem to have actually benefited from it while we're left sucked dry. And I don't think it's a false dichotomy, per se. One can exist in that paradigm and it is a very real one. You'll find no end of people to reinforce this reality. Heck, there are entire other religions (not mentioning any names) that exist primarily within this paradigm. But there is a least one concept that rises above it, a concept that creates a new paradigm, and that is the paradigm of Christ. If one gives one's self willingly to be consumed then one takes part in a different type of existence. One transcends, at least partially, this "eat or be eaten" dichotomy and finds a way where giving one's self to others for their benefit is, strangely, also to one's own benefit. And whether one believes or doesn't believe totally in the religion of Christianity, it is undeniable that those who live the purest form of this paradigm (the saints, for instance) show that at least something is undeniably real about this paradigm.

Oh, and since this is the 12-step thread, I'll share that tonight I went to my first 12-step meeting that uses a Christian workbook. I've been attending regular 12-step meetings for a couple months now.

That sounds like terrific news, Tate. Your courage is truly inspiring. And so what that the service was crappy. There'll be others.

I had a very positive experience actually one of those two by four experiences. As many of you realized by my posts I have been struggling with my divorce and getting stuck or stalled in my recovery. Thank you for helping me to see what is important an open honest working of the steps. I was wacked in the face when I read Galations 5 and watched Mel Gibsons movie on the passion. I have wasted so much time.

Lumps all over my head... Stay hungry!

I was wacked in the face when I read Galations 5�

quote:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, self-control. Against such things there is not a law.

Yeah, I like those two.

quote:

I have wasted so much time.

Wasted on the Way
by Graham Nash

Look around me, I can see my life before me
Running rings around the way it used to be
I am older now, I have more than what I wanted
But I wish that I had started long before I did

{Refrain}
And there's so much time to make up
Everywhere you turn
Time we have wasted on the way
So much water moving
Underneath the bridge
Let the water come and carry us away

Oh when you were young, did you question all the answers
Did you envy all the dancers who had all the nerve
Look around you now, you must go for what you wanted
Look at all my friends who did and got what they deserved

{Refrain}

And there's so much love to make up
Everywhere you turn
Love we have wasted on the way
So much water moving
Underneath the bridge
Let the water come and carry us away
Let the water come and carry us away

-----

That last verse I think is quite appropriate. No doubt we could easily get in the same (or worse) messes by trying to make up for lost time. Such things (achievements, mainly) can never be made up. Enough is never enough on those terms. But love, humility, ease, gentleness, kindness, patience�they all begin a new story in our lives; a story that needs no introduction. It's complete in itself so there is nothing to compensate for, no lost time to make up.

"Today is the first day of the rest of my life ain't just a river in Egypt. That's a thought that is real wisdom. Combine that with the concept of Divine forgiveness and the waters can just rush right over you. Let the water come and carry us away. Indeed.

We come out of our little madnesses and we wonder how many more there are. I think I'm sort of coming out of one now. What is stable ground? I honestly don't know. But although I'm not exactly running rings around the way it used to be, I partially see what used to be which therefore means I'm not in that same place. I'm looking at it from a different perspective. And that's what life offers, a constant string of different perspectives. When we stay in one place too long we may surely have an acute feeling of lost time. And it's surely true that we haven't grown in ways that we could have. But nature is a wonder. There is deep psychological and spiritual growth going on in the midst of apparent stagnation and pain. Not so much was wasted. Give it time for that soft wisdom to emerge.

The last ice age was 10,000 years or so ago. Mile-thick glaciers covered much of the area where I live. Even though they receded long ago, they say that the land is still rebounding from having the weight of all that ice removed.

I've always liked that Graham Nash song and it means more to me as I get older. Crosby spoke of Graham Nash as being one of the most evolved people on the planet.

Galations 5 is a constant guiding star in my revovery and a few wise persons have made reference to it. What did the early twelve steppers read? The Sermon of the Mount (how to practice) The Book of James (faith without works is dead) and the thirteenth chapter of Corinthians
(the love chapter).

It's in the AA history books...

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

Crosby spoke of Graham Nash as being one of the most evolved people on the planet.

As I read recently from someone, we're all put here on this planet to produce our own kind of poetry. And this makes sense, and it seems to me that this is as it should be. And because even trying to define poetry is poetry itself, we thus have free reign to step outside the normal bounds of thinking and find our poetry in our gardening, in our writing, in our nurturing of others, in the raising of our children, in our human relationships, or whatever. But I wouldn't want to get overly restrictive about what constitutes poetry or art. Some, regrettably, have even made war an art form. Not all art is unambiguously good. But the weird thing about art is that it both destructive and constructive and often both at once. Art is laced with love but there's no doubt that art is also laced with the prankster, the provocateur, the anarchist. For art to be deemed art in the first place it has to shake something loose, whether that is our emotions of love or our emotion of disgust. The idea is to create some kind of new perspective or understanding via contrast and activation of emotion and thought.

Art can activated by, and be the conduit for, either love or rage. We all tend to be squeamish of rage and rightfully so. We can think of no tales where too much genuine love was a bother. It's not possible to have too much of it. But we can unhealthily feed rage. There is a difference, no matter how fine a point this may be sometimes, between expressing it, and thus emptying it, and simply magnifying it like a cancer. Yes, even handling one's rage is an art.

People such as Graham Nash are great. We're all poets but we haven't all necessarily mined that trait yet. We often get too drowned in the details of a life; a life that seems more thrust upon us than having evolved from our core natures. So it's quite a treat to be able to live poetically and vicariously through such public talents as Graham Nash.

My, you are tapping into something today! Special K?

great-full mm

My, you are tapping into something today! Special K?

I�m truly happy to be able to put more than two words together that are constructive, MM. I am grateful as well.

Hi Everyone
Again I have enjoyed reading all the posts. I think I understand the comments about the traps in the program. Recent events brick walls probably a better description have shown me that my recovery will be successful when I let go of those things in my life that keep me from deepening my relationship with God. I cannot be dependent in a unhealthy way on others and trust in God.
I am waking up without my drug of relationships and it is scary.
Sunday I go to the benedictine Monastery in Chicago there website is
www.chicagomonk.org
Your idea of a virtual monastery is kinda being done by anglican benedictine group that is practiced in the world.

Copy number twenty-five million of Alcoholics Anonymous was presented at the 70th anniversary International Convention this year. Representatives
of Cuba, the PRC and Mongolia attended for the first time to a standing ovation! Exciting!

I began the actual rewriting of my first step today and have been inspired to work a more honest program. Today I have been xposed to a form of the mass that gripped my heart I guess the best way to describe it is new met the old form. It was beautiful. I visited a benedictine monastery in chicago called Holy cross website is www.chicagomonk.org

I also attended the benedictine version of the secular franciscans the lay oblates (oblate means offering) the talk was on inner silence.

Back to the mass it was completely chanted and parts chanted in Latin. The singing was heavenly. I think alot of modern churches do alot of the community thing well here was vertical thing or otherworldly feel.

I was reading a magazine on divorce probably not the best source for info anyway I read an article on anger and realized I am living in a perpetual 4th step and am seething with anger and resentment. My anger is aimed at myself. I realize nothing will change until I fall in love with myself so to speak. My prayer is Lord help me to love myself an not abuse myself.

I was reading a magazine on divorce probably not the best source for info anyway I read an article on anger and realized I am living in a perpetual 4th step and am seething with anger and resentment. My anger is aimed at myself. I realize nothing will change until I fall in love with myself so to speak.

From my point of view (and it is a far less experienced and knowledgeable one than that of Phil, WC and MM), is that addiction is self-abuse and thus is, at least partially, self-hate. And I must say that I�m dubious about being able to turn on self-love as if simply flipping a light switch. I think (to borrow some of Phil�s terminology from elsewhere), this is a process, not an event. In my way of seeing things, to just acknowledge the self-hate is, by definition, the start of self-love. We love the things that we seek to understand, things that we face instead of turning away from. So my advice is not to violently swing the pendulum back the other way and expect to develop self-love overnight, at least not a self-love that is narrowly defined only in terms of having feelings such as "Ooooo�it�s great to be me!"

Go ahead and openly be disgusted with yourself. But there�s a difference between expressing anger and flogging yourself. We heal nothing and resolve nothing if we simply dump on ourselves, shame ourselves, or punish ourselves. The truth is, although we�re likely to be angry with ourselves (perhaps deeply so), it�s unlikely that we truly every hate ourselves. It�s more likely that this self-hate residue was taught to us by someone else. It can be thought of as a foreign substance invading our body rather than a true expression of our grief or anger. Unless we�re really really really really really really really really really (add about ten more "really�s") really screwed-up-foaming-at-the-mouth crazy, a person is just not going to hate themselves. It makes no sense. It runs counter to our being, to existence itself. But we can be VERY angry at ourselves. That�s for sure. But any kind self-punishment or abuse simplymust be looked at with a more objective eye. You can�t keep acting out, say, mommy or daddy�s disdain for us. At some point we�ve just got to get off that wagon even if we still are angry with ourselves (especially for not being strong enough in the first place not to allow ourselves to be so manipulated and screwed up). But it is only nasty adults who expect children to accept that kind of responsibility. We should not mirror those nasty adults by being just as unkind with ourselves. Angry and dissappointed with ourselves? Sure. But spare yourself the abuse. Forget about punishing yourself. The shame is not deserved. Ask God to help you to distinguish between authentic feelings of anger and acts of self-abuse disguised as authentic feelings from deep down. Ask Him to allow you to be able to gain a wider perspective, as if you were up on a step ladder viewing yourself from above. You will see that we wouldn�t treat a dog the way we treat ourselves and that the only reason we treat ourselves to harshly is because we judging ourselves by someone else�s standards, not our own.

brjaan:

I've been saying similar prayers lately. In my 12-step support group, the subject of self-hatred kept coming up for several weeks...before I finally "got it" -- Oh, you're talking to me. Until recently, it just didn't dawn on me to tell the internal critic to lighten up.

I still get into a good shame spiral at least once a day, but I tend to brush off these thoughts much more quickly now. For instance, a guy glared across the room at me during a meeting on acceptance while mentioning that acceptance meant for him that he had
to accept the fact that some people are (reference to a certain part of human anatomy.) That kind of thing could get me going for hours or days before.
This time I processed the rejection within half an
hour or so. Progress not perfection.

Abraham Lincoln addressed the Washington Temperence society of Springfield, Illinois on February 22, 1842:

"In my judgement such of us who have never fallen victim (to alcoholism) have been spared more by the absence of appetite than from any mental or moral superiority over those who have, Indeed, I believe if we take habitual drunkards as a class, their heads and hearts will bear advantageous comparison with those of any other class.

There seems ever to have been a proneness in the brilliant and warm-blooded to fall into the vice -- the demon of intemperance ever seems to have delighted in sucking the blood of genius and generosity.

The victims should be pitied and compassioned, just as are the heirs of consumption and other hereditary diseases, Their failing should be treated as a misfortune and not as a crime, or even as a disgrace."

Megadittoes to Honest Abe and include all addicts
in that assessment. Many languish away on the fringes and the jails and in the isolation of the penthouse suite and the anonymity of the suburban home, when after all, God invites them to come and share the strength found in weakness and dependence on Him with this hurting world.

Carry the mess to a meeting and the mess will gradually become the message of hope.

another_dopeless_hope_fiend.com

I still get into a good shame spiral at least once a day, but I tend to brush off these thoughts much more quickly now. For instance, a guy glared across the room at me during a meeting on acceptance while mentioning that acceptance meant for him that he had to accept the fact that some people are (reference to a certain part of human anatomy.)

Okay. Let me get the laughing out of the way first because you gotta admit, at least from an outsider's perspective, THAT'S funny. I didn't know those meetings were as entertaining as a Jerry Springer show. What have I been missing all these years?

Okay, now with my composure steadied let me just say, Michael, don't you know by now that you're okay just as you are, even if you are a bit of an ass sometimes? Embrace your assness (might have to bend over for that one), for until you do you'll be trapped in it. Go ahead. Take your best shot at me. Tell me how I'm an opinionated know-it-all who can't even figure out his own life but has the nads to tell everyone else how to run theirs. Yeah. Something like that. Come on. I'm braced. Hit me.

The fact is, I know so few people who aren't rear-anatomies. I remember that my first grade school teacher was an angel. Aside from that, most people are asses. The only difference is that some disguise it better or refine it so that it's more socially acceptable.

For you to get through your ass stage you must fully acknowledge it. Don't let that assness just sort of just leak out. Give it your full attention because the fact is, most other people do things that are in need of our (I'll admit) services. People are practically begging for it in everyday life. If you could read their thoughts you might hear something like: "That was so stupid of me. What I need right now is a Mystical Michael of the world to sort of put an exclamation point on it. Here I was, talking on my cell phone when I should have been driving, and I went and ran over a kitty. Boy, was I an ass and I think this needs pointing out by some other ass."

I think you can see from the above example that being an ass isn't just fun, it's darn near a public service. So don't be shy. Next time someone calls you an ass at one of those meetings, look him or her straight in the eye and say "Why, yes I am. And if you'd like lesson for how to become a better one then I�m your man. But I really don't think you need any lessons."