Brad,
Honest Abe was very charitable in his remarks.
In a study on alcoholism in the 1950s, the common traits discovered in recovering people were immaturity, oversensitiveness and grandiosity.
It shocked the recovering community of the day, but it was probably good for them. Then I hear alot about how brilliant alcoholics are, yet IQ studies reveal no difference from the general population.
Still, after losing all those brain cells...

"I wake up in the morning and the vultures are there on the headboard waiting for me. My left arm
aches and I'm sure it's bone cancer. I can't go to work today, which means I've lost my job, which means that I can't pay the mortgage and I'm homeless. I've been awake five minutes and already
I'm homeless with bone cancer, AND I'M FIFTEEN YEARS SOBER! --circuit speaker Bob E.

This guy is hilarious, but the scary thing is that I understand him. Yeah, I try to revel in my insanity, but I study mental health since everyone
needs a hobby.


The fellow who "took my inventory" prefaced his remarks by admitting that he was also what he was calling me, so I think he has taken his own inventory as well. There is a saying, "If you can spot it, you got it." So true....

have a nice day

Honest Abe was very charitable in his remarks.
In a study on alcoholism in the 1950s, the common traits discovered in recovering people were immaturity, oversensitiveness and grandiosity. It shocked the recovering community of the day, but it was probably good for them.

Yeah, I agree that honest Abe was charitable in his remarks. Good call, MM. And I wouldn�t want to discount the hard work and discipline of those who are brilliant and have abstained from addiction, but I think Abe also had a point. We may not be smarter, overall, when all things are averaged out. But I think we have certain areas of aptitude where we are quite brilliant and warm-blooded. Addiction is just another way to try to escape the pain of unmet potential.

Again, we ought to cherish, support and honor those hard-working people who have had just as many pressures and faced just as much (probably more) hardship and have kept their act together. But that said, it may be difficult for some people to understand (or for us to relate) the special nature of the ghost that haunts us.

Have a nice day yourself, [expletive deleted].

A couple of things that I want to respond too. First is the idea that all addiction is just unmet potential that is simply untrue. For some it is a way to cope from pain, others to deal with an abusive situation or poverty and the list goes on it is usually a coping mechanism.
I disagree with the response on anger. I guess here I get to admit being human and can think irratonally and not like myself. The way anger self justice was described made me feel like an automaton. Just some thoughts. Had a tough weekend so Iask for your prayers.

Sorry you�re having a rough time of things, brother Jaan.

First is the idea that all addiction is just unmet potential that is simply untrue.

Agreed. The way I said that made it sound like it was the onlyl factor. But I think it is a significant one.

I disagree with the response on anger. I guess here I get to admit being human and can think irratonally and not like myself. The way anger self justice was described made me feel like an automaton. Just some thoughts.

I wonder if you�re thinking that I might be saying that we have to have reasons worked out ahead of time first in order to be angry, that one can�t just going ahead and be angry simply because that�s how you feel. I�m not sure. I�m sort of guessing at what you meant, Jaan. But I think it�s common, especially for those who have had addictions, to try to numb or forget the anger via doing an addiction. Usually we come from a place where the expression of anger wasn�t allowed. We were either out-shouted or shamed for it. Either way, it wasn�t safe to express it. It gets stuck. It builds up. It usually then doesn�t come out in appropriate amounts to meet the small little injustices or infringements we might meet n everyday life. No, it tends to get bottled up and then if we do let it out it tends to come out in large bursts of rage.

Learning to express anger is definitely something that a group should be a LOT of help with. You should be in a setting where you can say EXACTLY what it is you want to say knowing that no one will condemn you, that it is okay. Maybe 12 step programs don�t facilitate this. I don�t know. But other groups do and I would look into one in case the 12 step doesn�t. You might be surprised how much can come out and how much you can free yourself�almost in an instant.

How about this? "Addiction is the spiritual emergency
which can bring about spiritual emergence."

Just listened to a talk by Patrick Carnes, who is likely one of the most aware people on the planet,
and he was speaking on Varieties of Sexual Trauma:
Addiction and Recovery. It's difficult to absorb
that much truth in an hour and a half, but those tapes used to send me tripping out for days. I found
a couple of recovery bookstores and went through everything on the shelves in about eight years. Still really sick, but very aware of it now. The whole planet is messed up, so there's lots of company. This was a 1993 talk, and he was in L.A. speaking of the riots and how we might all pay attention to those kind of symptoms. We're all in this together.

caritas, mm <*)))))><

Hi Everyone
Been reading some of the posts especially on shame and can deeply relate. I had a couple of things as of late falll into my lap car repairs dead end job hunts and inability to pay bills etc. A normal person would ask for help but I find myself stuck in depression or feeling sorry for myself and then I emotionally dumped on my soon to be exwife which was very unhelpful. I am having a hardtime letting go and caring about myself.

brjaan,

It can take a long time for the energy to return. Much energy is wasted either living in the old character defects, or in recovery, in fighting the character defects. A friend about two years sober who hasn't done the work yet is having a breakdown.
Nothing I can do for her. This is what she needs to
experience to bottom out in recovery.

This too shall change. You won't always feel like this, but it's hard to see that in the tunnel.

caritas, mm <*))))><

Been reading some of the posts especially on shame and can deeply relate. I had a couple of things as of late falll into my lap car repairs dead end job hunts and inability to pay bills etc. A normal person would ask for help but I find myself stuck in depression or feeling sorry for myself and then I emotionally dumped on my soon to be exwife which was very unhelpful. I am having a hardtime letting go and caring about myself.

I think, at core, everything circles back to these unfilled desires we have in our hearts. They (often rightly) keep us unsettled and off balance. Some of these desires are healthy. They might spur us to grow and to take necessary chances. Others are little more than cravings of the ego that tells us we won't be good enough unless we do some thing. Distinguishing between one and the other is our task. The call of the ego, especially depending on our history and childhood, can be so loud that it drowns out our other heart's desires, the kind that we would find life-enhancing. Mix into this equation the basic requirement to earn a living, pay bills, etc., and you can run right into the situation that you, brother Jaan, and others (including myself) are struggling to deal with. There seems no way to take some of the pressure off in order to get regain perspective and a sense of direction. We lash out. We get angry. This further enhances our shame and sense of helplessness and the cycle continues. We'll also undoubtedly try to both enter life more fully, and provide some relief, by going for the short-term "sensation-al" fix; aka addictive behavior. But what else can one do? The deliberate, accumulative, slow-but-steady approach doesn't seem to work. It doesn't seem to offer much hope.

I don't have an ex-wife to dump on me, brother Jaan, but everything you just said I could have said. It is where I am now and have been for some time. All one can do � what one has to do � is to let go of the "should-do's" and the "should-be's" and the "oughta-have's". Perhaps the paradigm that we have now is of flypaper: everything that comes along, or has come along, seems to stick to us. And just as you're able to sort of flick one thing off of yourself, another couple problems come along and attach. Perhaps you remember that guy who gets suffocated in paper in the movie, "Brazil." But the paradigm we need to work on is the paradigm of a duck's back and to consider all the various things out there as water that can roll right off it � even (and especially) our own annoying and demanding internal recriminations. All this sh*t really just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. We can, at any moment, have perfect piece of mind�but, admittedly, we can't have that if we are at war with our internal expectations of life and ourselves. We are trying to play up to some totally artificial image in our heads and it is robbing us of life. It is time to just let those things go. We sense that something needs to die, to be murdered, but it isn't our very lives. But it is a piece of us that surely needs to snuff it. But it's a piece that doesn't have to be killed. It just needs to be tamely and unceremoniously let go so that one can sit at the corner coffee shop and have a cup of coffee and have that be the most important thing that one could do with one's life. Because it is.

I read the last reply and realize I am not doing a third step on this marriage. It is over but I am hanging on for dear life. My wife is seeing a lawyer monday which will speed up the process. When she told me I could not contain my tears and have been a emotional wreck since. She is right parts of the marriage have been unhealthy for both of us but how do you deal with issues like the permanency of marriage promises made I mean she has been my little princess for 13 years I feel so empty shame ridden and yes lost. Pray for my wife and I.

I read the last reply and realize I am not doing a third step on this marriage. It is over but I am hanging on for dear life. My wife is seeing a lawyer monday which will speed up the process. When she told me I could not contain my tears and have been a emotional wreck since. She is right parts of the marriage have been unhealthy for both of us but how do you deal with issues like the permanency of marriage promises made I mean she has been my little princess for 13 years I feel so empty shame ridden and yes lost. Pray for my wife and I.

That sounds really, really rough, brother Jaan. I hope you're seeing a counselor of some sort right now because you really do need someone to talk to and to give you some support and perspective. I would recommend you also seek out a group, whether in real life or online (or both), where you can talk to others who are going through, or have been through, separations and divorces. At the very least, go to the library, or find a book regarding the subject on Amazon.com. You need to hear from others who have gone through this process. They can give good advice on dealing with the emotional issues and with the fear of the unknown, which is probably a huge part of your angst right now. But if you stay alone with this, it's going to eat you up and, although this is certainly serious, it's not like either one of you is dying from cancer. Staying alone with this issue is going to make you lose all sense of proportion. Do talk to someone, especially someone who has been in your situation. It will help and you will find that there is much reason for hope.

I had this freind awhile back who was having a small
breakdown. She said that people would often make suggestions, but it was like asking a person in a wheelchair to get up and walk. I had to think about that....

There is a Doctor Bernie Seagal who sometimes says to his cancer patients, "Your sins are forgiven, rise and walk."

Step one and two for the time being, I would say.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

MM sagely said: She said that people would often make suggestions, but it was like asking a person in a wheelchair to get up and walk. I had to think about that....

Our Inability To Cast Out Demons
Ronald Rolheiser

quote:

The older I get, the more I realize that there is a huge difference between speaking effectively, perhaps even brilliantly, and actually changing anybody�s life. It�s one thing to impress a person, move a heart, inspire someone, reveal the depth of some truth, help someone to understand himself or herself more deeply, or to teach and minister in a way that brings admiration. No small thing. But it�s something else, something much more difficult, to move someone in such a way that he or she actually changes and gives up the habits, compensations, addictions, indulgences, fears, and angers that stand between him and her and the joy of being a saint.

Even when we are at our best, we are still not very effective in helping each other better our lives. In effect, people listen to us and say: �You�re wonderful, but this isn�t going to change my life!� Like John the Baptist, we are able to point out the way, but not able to help affect the transformation that�s needed for someone to actually change his or her way of life. That�s why there�s a lot more admiration than transformation inside religious and moral circles.

And that�s true too in the world at large. In the arts, politics, and academia, we�ve become masters at everything, except actually creating new beauty and actually bettering community. We�re brilliant at showing what�s wrong, but far less effective in actually improving the situation. If we�re honest, we can all truthfully speak these words (which John Shea puts into the John the Baptist�s mouth): �I can denounce a king, but I cannot enthrone one. I can strip an idol of its power, but I cannot reveal the true God. I can wash the soul in sand, but I cannot dress it in white. I can devour the word of the Lord like wild honey, but I cannot lace his sandal. I can condemn the sin, but I cannot bear it away.� Why? Why is our power less than our knowledge? Why, when we know so much, are we so powerless to change things?

..but it seems this is what Rolheiser is suggesting.

That sounds good to me. It�s an interesting conundrum, one that I think relates to the 12 step approach. I agree with Rolheiser that we might be a true and good influence on people only if we have the moral authority to do so (if we are not, that is, hypocrites). And he speaks about this moral authority as something that is intangible. Surely Gandhi might have said the exact same thing to that child, and in the exact same tone of voice, but why was it effective in one instance (so we suppose�we�re not given this detail, but we might intuit from our own experience that this is true) and yet it might have little or no influence if Gandhi himself were addicted to sweets. There�s a definite suggestion from Rolheiser that some other process is layered on top of our mere words. It may have nothing to do with the subtitles of our tone of voice, our gestures, even the exact words we use. There just seems to be a "something else" that (it is purported) proves to be effective where in other cases (such with any advice I give out, for instance) is not.

On the other hand, the amazing thing about the 12 step approach is that one is being truly reformed by the help of others who are sinners�people who may, in fact, be struggling with back-sliding, who may be extorting others to abstinence even while they may be having trouble doing so themselves and thus, technically, are be slightly hypocritical (at least inconsistent or imperfect). And yet this 12 step approach obviously is very effective.

Maybe it is all about one�s intention. In the case of Gandhi (or any similar case), if one was a devoted smoker and was being enlisted to convince someone else that they should quit, then the advocator of non-smoking might pollute any such advice he gives with guilt and thus that advice, while on the surface seemingly composed of great wisdom, would not be particularly effective in changing behavior. On the other hand, if he just came out and said "I�m a smoker and can not stop or don�t want to stop" then perhaps this honesty is the "magic" in any effectiveness his words might have on another.

When Feeling Down and Out

quote:

First, don't be surprised to feel so lonely and shackled:

"Don't be shocked at the loneliness and desertedness of your inner prison, which seems to be filled only with powerlessness and hopelessness, with tiredness and emptiness! Don't be shocked!"

To feel shocked and abnormal at the chaos of our own loneliness and complexity is to not yet have been properly introduced to ourselves. To sometimes feel emptiness and near-despair is normal, a sign of sensitivity and emotional health.

Second, stay inside of that emptiness. Don't run from it.

The natural temptation is to try to get out of loneliness by plunging ourselves into busyness, distractions, amusements, and social life with the hope of fooling ourselves about our own despair. Part of that too is the tendency to see our emptiness and frustration as a sign that there isn't any God. Emptiness and chaos can easily cause us to doubt�

Tough words, but true. When we break down, it's not the real God we despair of, but only God as we imagined him. What we feel in emptiness is not the death of God but rather the space within which God can be born. What loneliness and despair deprive us of is not God, but our illusions about God. The finite, not the infinite, is what's taken from us.

From Depression to Delight

quote:

The air we breathe out into the universe is the air we will inhale. That's the law of karma. When we act like God, we get to feel like God. And God is never depressed.

It is true God is never depressed but I am. Actually because of the divorce and I am holding the paper in my hand my emotions have been all over the place mostly angry at my self and sad lots of fantasy to escape my feelings.

Hypocricy, a topic I have some considerable experience with, came up at group tonight. Feedback
from several individuals, and people who know me well, is that I can be arrogant and presumptuous.
That's the wonderful thing about a home group, they
can call me on my stuff. They know how to do this very effectively after having had the benefit of others doing it for them. If my thin skin can't take it, then that's just too bad. They have done their duty. If I can receive it and learn from it, then their efforts will not have been in vain.

Lots of shadow exploration, then some more...

I felt better about smoking a pack a day after learning yesterday that C.S. Lewis was up to three packs, between pipes.

Better methinks, to stay busy enough to not think about myself and make all these useless comparisons. EGO = Easing God Out

blessings2all

It is true God is never depressed but I am. Actually because of the divorce and I am holding the paper in my hand my emotions have been all over the place mostly angry at my self and sad lots of fantasy to escape my feelings.

Feeling God in Vulnerability

quote:

Sometimes we understand things through their absence. The experience of loneliness teaches us about love. Sometimes too the more painful the absence, the more we�re opened to what we�re missing. The more fierce and raging the loneliness, the bigger the cavern for love it creates inside of us.

That�s true too for our understanding of God and what it means to draw life from God. If loneliness is what we feel when love is absent, what do we feel when God and grace are seemingly absent? And if loneliness stretches our hearts for deeper love, what does a feeling of God�s absence create inside of us?

We feel the seeming absence of God whenever we feel these things: anxiety for no apparent reason, feelings of guilt we can�t explain, a helplessness we can�t do anything about, fear of death, a nagging sense that something isn�t right, a feeling that somehow we aren�t good enough, a restless drive to make a name for ourselves, a greedy need to drink in as much life as we can, and the inchoate feeling that nothing�s enough, that we aren�t enough, that life isn�t enough, that we�re standing on the edge of nothingness.

At one level, these feelings can all be explained away as nothing more than neuroses, hang-ups, signs of immaturity, lack of robust health, lack of resiliency, over-sensitivity, as signs that we�re weak, over-timid, out-of-sorts.

That can be true, but sensitivity also indicates life, humanity, depth, feeling, faith. What�s alive is sentient, tender to feeling. It�s what�s inanimate and dead that�s never crippled by feelings. Brute things don�t suffer anxiety, rocks don�t worry about betrayal, and self-centered egoists aren�t concerned about sin.

The short-term message, Brother Jaan, and perhaps the only message that is possible, is to not run away from those feelings. You�re deathly afraid (like most of the human race) to let them in because that would mean a sure plunge to the bottom, to the depths of despair, to the pit of emotional hell.

First off let me say that if you or I ever found a foolproof way to stay with unpleasant feelings instead of avoiding them (and thus become healed) we would unquestionably win the Nobel Prize. This is such a huge issue in human affairs, if not the issue. We don�t tend to easily face painful feelings. We are usually far more ready and able to deal with issues involving our physical survival than we are dealing with issues involving the survival of some idea about ourselves or the world. We have no problem removing, say, a splinter and thus ending our pain but to do the same regarding an idea in our heads is devilishly difficult�often nearly impossible. And that�s probably the real issue here, Brother Jaan. To come to terms with rejection is to face �standing on the edge of nothingness�. If we believe we can be confirmed only by other people then there is simply no place to go, no place to settle with those feelings. They MUST be avoided or denied because there is no resolution to them other than to come to the logical conclusion that we are unworthy of love and acceptance.

This is what the author of the above article surely means by �standing on the edge of nothingness�. And frankly, I�m not even sure god exists (and other times it scares the hell out of me to think that he does), but I do know that there is a place, a platform, or some solid structure that we can indeed rest on. We don�t have to keep ourselves inflated over the �edge of nothingness� with drugs, sex, bursts of ego, pride, etc. That�s an awful lot of work. Living is no longer living. It�s like being employed at the circus as a juggler. One has to keep all these things in the air at the same time because if they ever fell to earth there would be nothing to keep them, and us, from sinking completely into the abyss�or so we think. But this is not so. There is something solid in just being. That takes no mask, no effort, no games, and no fancy juggling. And right now, for you, being is being with some pain. It�s not trying to figure anything out, for there is likely nothing to figure out�but there is plenty to feel. Bad feelings, even the worst of the worst feelings, do not weaken that sturdy platform on which we can all depend. One can have any kind of emotion and still sit comfortably and surely on that solid structure.

Here's a little essay I thought you might appreciate, Brother Jaan. I know I did:

Lost is a Place Too

quote:

"There's nothing wrong with you; indeed, there's a lot right with you. You're where you should be right now: in the desert, letting the merciless sun do its work; in a dark night, undergoing an alchemy of soul; in exile, lamenting on a foreign shore so that you can better understand your homeland; in the garden, sweating the blood that needs to be sweated to live out your commitments; being pruned, undergoing spiritual chemotherapy, to shrink the tumours of emotional and spiritual dead-wood that have built up from wrong-turns taken; in the upper room, unsure of yourself, waiting for pentecost before you can set out again with any confidence; undergoing positive disintegration, having your life ripped apart so that you can rearrange it in a more life- giving way; sitting in the ashes, like Cinderella, because only a certain kind of humilation will ready your soul for celebration; and undergoing purgatory, right here on earth, so your heart, soul, and body can, through this painful purging, learn to embrace what you love without unhealthily wanting it for yourself.

Knowing this, of course, doesn't make it easier to accept feeling lost and on the outside, especially in a world in which being successful is everything. That's why it's hard to ever admit, even to our closest friends, that we're struggling, tasting more ashes than glory. Small wonder that our Christmas letters to our friends each year invariably are a list of all that's gone well in our lives and never an admittance of struggle or humiliation.

The same holds true in our personal lives. We have our good seasons, but we have seasons too where we lose relationships, lose health, lose friends, lose spouses, lose children, lose jobs, lose prestige, lose our grip, lose our dreams, lose our meaning, and end up humbled, alone, and lonely on a Friday night. But that's a place too, a valid and an important one. Inside that place, our souls are being shaped in ways we cannot understand but in ways that will stretch and widen them for a deeper love and happiness in the future.

Well everyone I find myself back at the third step. I have a new spiritual director a benedictine monk from Holy Cross monastery. after talking with me he was convinced that I do not believe but just intellectually assent to the faith. He said I need to make faith an act of the will before I can surrender anything. I honestly think he is right feeling bad is my idol and my addiction is how I escape. The monastery has been good for me a place of quietness and reflection. I always come back feeling lighter.

Hey brjaan, that's great!

"When we sincerely took such a position, all sorts of remarkable things followed. We had a new employer. Being all-powerful, he provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well. Established on such a footing, we became
less and less interested in ourselves, our little plans and designs. More and more we became interested in seeing what we could contribute to life. As we felt new power flow in, as we enjoyed peace of mind, as we discovered we could face life successfully, as we became conscious of his presence, we began to lose our fear of today, tomorrow and the hereafter. We were reborn."

Big Book, page 63

Thank you very much for reminding me.

Well everyone I find myself back at the third step. I have a new spiritual director a benedictine monk from Holy Cross monastery. after talking with me he was convinced that I do not believe but just intellectually assent to the faith. He said I need to make faith an act of the will before I can surrender anything. I honestly think he is right feeling bad is my idol and my addiction is how I escape. The monastery has been good for me a place of quietness and reflection. I always come back feeling lighter.

Wow. I think you've already shown that those guys know their stuff. That all sounds really good, Jaan. And I think that's a fantastic insight about feeling bad being an idol. Somebody who is struggling with something similar is not sitting a million miles away from you. And how cool to be in a monastery! That sounds wonderful. Be at peace. You deserve it.

Thanks Brad

The last couple of days have been a very fourth step for myself. I have always taken out my anger on myself making myself sick and isolated. The last couple of days I have been think my stuff and others in a different light. I am not angry at myself and maybe I am okay. For me it is a scary thought and it is making it easier to forgive myself and let go of the responsibility of others.