"Buddhist teachers agree and teach that it is important to watch the anger and deal with it before it GROWS and becomes resentment."

I think this teaching is as old as Buddha and contemporary Jiddu Krishnamurti emphasised to watch and observe without the disruption of thought. About four years ago I was thinking a lot about this issue and I even tried to watch as the teaching says. My experience of this type of watching was very difficult and sometimes it seems it is impossible.
I think the difficulty lies to differantiate on who observes who. Which one is the disturbance thought? I had these types of questions in my mind.

We all know our mind calculate and analyse to achieve something both materially and spiritually. Mostly this movement doesn't produce meaningful results and this lead to the classical question: What is the meaning of life? On the way to search an answer we will encounter many philosophies, religions, political ideologies, sacred books, ancient civilizations etc.. and it will be very easy to stick on the one idea we think is sensible and genuine. That means we become part of something and attached to it. Consequently, in believing we find the right answer, we seize our search. In another word by believing we have found God we seize to search God. But if we continue our searching sincerly without stop something unknown power (God) will appear at the end of the journey. This power is totally unknown to the ordinary mind and has difficulty to understand it. If the mind follows this power unknowingly the power begins to modify the mind. Following God unknowingly as John of the Cross put it perfectly hints alot. This ending of the journey is actually the beginning of authentic spiritual journey. At this stage under the guidance of this power we begin to act differently. Under the guidance of this power we begin to watch anger and other staffs without the hindrance of thought. This has been my experience. Many apply different spiritual techniques to attain some kind of peace in mind. It is not bad to try this. However, the most important thing is to have an open mind throughout the way without attaching to any path. If the mind begins satisfied and feel comfortable on the object it cling on (for example religious or political organisations)and then it is a sign of interruption to that sincere seeking. It is not the sign of blessing as the mind wants to believe.

What I wanted to say is watching the anger as it is not an easy task. Buddhists and Krishanamurti says watch the anger and deal with it before it GROWS and becomes resentment. Although the statement is correct I wonder how the unmodified mind, the creator of resentment, can see clearly. According to my experience this mind is not capable to watch the anger as it is unless it is assisted by the above mentioned unknown power(God).
It seems the core issue is how we handle with our mind consciously.

Although the statement is correct I wonder how the unmodified mind, the creator of resentment, can see clearly. According to my experience this mind is not capable to watch the anger as it is unless it is assisted by the above mentioned unknown power(God).
It seems the core issue is how we handle with our mind consciously.

Yes. Well said, Grace. It seems that so many of these problems are of the nature of "trying to see the back of one's own head". How do you look through a telescope in order to see yourself looking through the telescope? How can we use our "unmodified" mind to see above and outside our normal self and gain a larger perspective? It's seems forever paradoxical, and yet it seems we can do just that. I think as soon as we stop seeing exclusively through the lens of our own egos that we can accomplish this. Whether God is the catalyst for this I do not know, but it's as good a theory as any.

A few questions relating medication.

Do some people need it?

Is it overprescribed? Are doctors some of the biggest drug pushers around?

Is it underprescribed? Are there persons who could use it and don't take it?

Do some people find that after working the steps they no longer need it?

Are sponsors tempted to play doctor?

Should you talk to your sponsor about medication?

Have alot of people done themselves in when their sponsor advised them to stop taking it?

Should you make an informed decision based on
consumer information, doctor's advise and some sponsors and freinds?


YES!

caritas,

mm

Brad, my statement is not based upon some theory or another's experience. It is not either the calculation of my ordinary mind. Otherwise I wouldn't put such a big statement without experiencing it. I agree, if you don't see it through experience it remain to be as any other theory.

Picking up where I left off in the Big Book:

Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened? Though a situation had not been entirely our fault, we tried to disregard the other person involved entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the other man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us in black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set these matters straight.

Notice that the word "fear" is bracketed alongside the diffiuculties with Mr. Brown, Mrs. Jones, the employer, and the wife. This short word
somehow touches about every aspect of our lives. It was an evil and corroding thread; tha fabric of our existence was shot through with it. It set in motion trains of circumstances which brought us the misfortune we felt we didn't desrve. But did not we, ourselves, set the ball rolling? Sometimes we think fear ought to be classed with stealing. It seems to cause more trouble.

Brad, my statement is not based upon some theory or another's experience. It is not either the calculation of my ordinary mind. Otherwise I wouldn't put such a big statement without experiencing it. I agree, if you don't see it through experience it remain to be as any other theory.

Ah, I see now where it looks like I�m putting words into your mouth. Certainly, Grace, you never referred to your experience of God as a theory, although the word �theory� needn�t, at least in my opinion, seem so pejorative. Gravity is a theory. The idea of a loving, all-powerful God is a theory, and as I�ve been so well informed on this very forum, it�s a theory that is supported by many different kinds of evidence, including exactly the experiences that you described.

the next page (page 68)

We reviewed our fears thoroughly. We put them on paper, even though we had no resentment in connection with them. We asked ourselves why we had them. Wasn't it because self-reliance had failed us? Self-reliance was good as far as it went, but it didn't go far enough. Some of us once had great self confidence, but it didn't fully solve the fear problem, or any other. When it made us cocky, it was worse.

Perhaps there is a better way---we think so. For we are now on a different basis; the basis of trusting and relying upon God. We trust the infinite God rather than our finite selves. We are in this world to play the role He assigns. Just to the extent that we do as we think He would have us, and humbly rely on Him, does he enable us to match calamity with serenity.

We never apologize to anyone for depending upon our Creator. We can laugh at those who think spirituality the way of weakness. Paradoxically, it is the way of strength. The verdict of the ages
is that faith means courage. They trust their God. We never apologize for God. Instead we let him demonstrate, through us, what he can do. We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our attention to what he would have us be. At once, we commence to outgrow fear.

Good replies I am learning a lot I have to admit though much of the Buddhist theoritical stuff I cannot relate too and yes Grace it is theoratical if it is just experiential. thanks mysticalmike I think for reading from the Big book I did get alot from it especially the fear stuff.
I am now finally ready to begin to look at my personal defects with the help of my sponsor. One of my biggest Character defect is anger but also lieing and I guess at the center of it all is selfishness. I am reading Phil's book Becoming a New Person 12 steps to Christian Growth, I am reading about the 4th step.
I think the chapter on the Third step laid out a really good argument for Jesus being the true higher power. It is funny what we say that comes back to bite us. On the forum board and I do not remember where but another discussion about which should come first the medical treatment or 12 steps I reacted heavily on the side of the 12 steps. I am not so sure; zoloft has helped me to be more focused and less anxious ridden etc. This is helping me explore my feelings and work a better program.

Over the past couple of weeks partly due to Zoloft and partly to working my program I have realized how I am avoiding the Fourth Step. It is incidious how I will try to avoid responsibility for my recovery. I am reading about the 4th step without actually doing it. I am afraid of actually doing it. Why? My defects do not terrify me but I think it is actually having to change and deal with the wrongs inside of me and ones I have done to others in a word change. I recognize if I do the 4th step that will naturally lead to the 5th step and I will have to change. Pray for me as I take on this important endeavor.

brjaan,

I had to put names, institutions, and principles with which I disagreed down on paper and take a look at why I was angry, how they affected me
and where was I selfish, self seeking, dishonest and fearful. I have to do this every day, since I lived in the wrong direction for so many years.
I hate it. Everyone does, but I like the results.
Right at the moment I see a very messy room, and I can live with the pain, guilt and self loathing which my denial keeps me in, or I can grab a broom, dustpan, vaccuum cleaner and get busy. Just thinking about it makes me tired. I think I'll lie down

caritas,

ps(maybe I should run this
slothfulness by my sponsor) mm <*))))><

I love mysticalmike's last post because it is so true the SA white book talks about the 4th step being the step everyone hates because they have to change but goes on to say taking the inventory and moving on to steps 5 and 6 brought wonderful gifts grace and a closer relationship with other and ultimately a person's higher power. I am paraphrasing this badly but this is the gist of it.
I have also been reading Mr Romain's book BECOMING A NEW PERSON Twelve Steps to Christian Growth especially the chapter on the 4th step. the questions have really helped me begin the process of self examination but not totally in a negative way.

I might well read Mr. Romain's book also. Have not heard from you in a while and wondered how you have been. When I got into the fellowship I was quite unaware that people in the program actually cared for me more than I cared for myself and I wondered why. Now I see new people come in the same way and I experience the other side of it. Addiction disolves genuine self esteem.

After a fifth step, I always feel relief. Ahhh!
Then comes a bit of an empty feeling of who am I without all this junk? You might have heard in meetings of feeling like the holes in Swiss cheese. I don't mind being a PEACE of Jesus cheese
today. We are only as sick as our secrets...

"Resist Satan and he will flee from you."


caritas,


mm <*)))))><


;

I had a great meeting last night that will really drove home the 3rd step. We read an article from the Essay magazine SA's magazine and it brought up a couple of thoughts about how my view of God has changed over the last couple of months This morning I was reading a question out of the book Becoming a new person 12 steps to Christian Growth written by Phil. The Question can be found at the end of the chapter about step 4. I am going to paraphrase it and probably poorly but the gist was What do I believe about God? I spent some time thinking how to approach this question. Finally I decided to write what I have been thinking about since last night's meeting. My view of God was heavily infleunced by my conflicts with my father and his rejection and how I viewed all authority. Though intellectually I knew God Loved me and was not out to get me emotionally I felt like a pile of useless cow dung. I felt God could not love me and I hated myself.
I dont know how others might view this but in my own experience being sober does not necessarily mean I'm in recovery. I have been sober from my sexual addiction since April but still felt the overwhelming urge to act out and came close to losing my sobriety on numerous occasions.
But what I did see because of the program during this period more of a willingness to call my sponsor and go to meetings which probably laid the work for what I am calling recovery.
In the last few weeks maybe three to four my life began to change I cannot put my finger on it but acknowledge the work of God in my life and gift of the 12 step program. I think though one of the keys has been an emotional shift on how I view God it began with a shift on how I view myself. I actually began to love myself and from that has sprung the attitude of acceptance toward my family and my wife. This may seem small but it really changed how I felt about God enough to really see and accept myself for who I am an addict in need of Christ.

Brjaan:

A belated response to a previous post of yours. Re: the difference between rage and anger, the former is usually riddled with shame. Anger, OTOH, in my experience, is consciously connected to the feeling of hurt, and more easily contained in terms of the relationship to the other person. One's sense of reason isn't lost, and cotaining it and soothing the hurt is possible. Anger doesn't require me to blame the other person, whereas rage needs to have a perpetrator. But this isn't to say rage isn't a legitimate emotion (more complex), given that severe wounds can fester for many years, and getting to the original grief can require traversing the shock and rage and shame first. But sometimes the shame can be so severe, and pervasive, one is inhibited from grieving, treating it as a "pity party," or an offense to others, or even a sin, since it often involves holding others who were abusive accountable, even confronting them. As such, anger can be an energy that mobilizes change, not always needing a target, and a kind of power leading to a form of basic self-worth.

This is something that my sponsor continues to drive home he also suggests that when I fall or have an angry, sad or anxious that is God telling me how much I need him. I am sick home today and had some difficulty with my own thinking. I am glad that I had the courage to call my sponsor and a good friend.

Brjaan:

Are you familiar with Lectio Divina? I know my suggestions are often off the beaten path, but this one isn't, one that Phil might recommend as well. I mention it because it sounds like you are finding more and more intimacy with God, which implies, to me, that some of the shame is healing as well.

Although Lectio Divina emerges from a long Catholic tradition, it reaches back even further into Christian antiquity, to the desert Fathers, who knew so well the psychological perils of spiritual development. It certainly is compatible with the 12 Step process. Phil can advise you regarding using the two in concert. Here's a web link to the practice, something you can print per the author:

http://www.valyermo.com/ld-art.html

Excellent link, w.c. We also have this resource on this web site.

For a Christian working the Steps, Lectio Divina can be an excellent way to work Step 11. I think I have something about that in the book Br. Jaan is reading, but these links are better elaborations on the topic.

Took a glance at the article about lecto Divina and it looks great I will probably turn the article into a ebook. I also have read some Basil Pennington on the subject. I pray the Office of Readings and morning prayer the computer version on Universalis.com though at times have to admit I enjoy the Anglican version more and can be found at http://www.oremus.org/. Most of the time I use http//www.universalis.com and simplified version of the ignatian prayer which can be found at Sacred space a Irish jesuit site http://www.jesuit.ie/prayer/ Both I find coupled with the daily gospel from http://www.bible.claret.org/dg2004/index.html
I love the translation and the notes that come out of the claretians called the Christian Community Bible the notes have a third world perspective.
I also love to pray the Rosary and other spoken prayers. So I do a combination of things. The one thing that I notice though when I am having difficulties in my thought processes prayer is the first thing I let go.

The Last week or so I have been going to less meetings due to family issues and work schedule and have felt it. One of my main character defects is procrastination. As I continue to work on my fourth step this defect becomes more and more dominant a way to avoid facing myself, my hurts, and ultimately the steps themselves.
My sponsor has told me on numerous occasions this is when I am either reminded of powerless and need for God or slam into a brick wall.

Hi everyone

I am still in the beginning of taking my fourth step inventory though I have found Phil's info in his book 12 steps for Christians I am killing the title. Last couple of weeks has been a reminder of what I need the most and that is God's grace and extra dose of acceptance.

This week has been a good lesson in the Third step. My addiction has been hounding me and I have felt like a dry drunk. The times I feel releived or free of it have been when I am in acceptance of the fact that what I want is my addiction and am able to pray God it is yours I cannot do anything to stop myself only you can. It is here where I find strength to go another day into sobriety. I am still struggling with the personal inventory and live in tremendous fear but it is good to have those moments of serenity.

Keep going with the Fourth Step and don't delay in taking Step Five. As one who's listened to hundreds of Fifth Steps, I can tell you that many find it a great relief to get things off their chest. Some even looked younger when they left the room.

I remember telling Father Keating how much I was getting overwhelmed by the things I was hearing from peoples fifth steps. He looked at me kind of funny and I felt as though I had said something wrong. I've thought about that alot, and I think I said that because I had not thoroughly enough dealt with my own.
Hold back nothing. Do not flinch at anything. Whatever you definitely wish to exclude, put that down first. Take my advise, I'm not using it.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

Hi Everyone it has been quiet here for a little while. I have begun taking my personal inventory and have started with the biggest issue in my life fear. I realize how fear and anxiety have crippled my life and kept me from living. Fear made it easy to resort to my drug avoid work and responsibility and eventually self destructive behavior. I have started with list of how fear and anxiety has affected my marriage. This was difficult but I did it. Any suggestions?

Congratulations, brjaan, as you have taken a significant step. Just shining the light on this
thing is half the battle.
Just the other day I listened to a tape from a minister who was nine years sober from his addiction, which he was practising while serving in the ministry. Alot of this going around and he claimed that in the average congregation of 500 parishoners you can find 50 sexual addicts. This is a very common problem which has been brought to ligh by the Swaggart and Baker scandals and elsewhere in the body of Christ.
I was struck by how tender and caring this man was toward those who still stuggle in shame and secrecy. His lack of judgement was profound and deep.
Just spoke with a fellow who has been kicking around the twelve steps for a long time and is still having experiences of release of carried shame from his family after another round of stepwork. He seemed a new man. Keep peeling that onion and sometimes you cry, but joy comes in the morning! Listening to others share their recovery encourages me as my own recovery story grows in power and hope from year to year.
Just keep doing it!
caritas,

mm <*))))><