Bernadette Roberts, wow...;-) We have here a very long discussion on her, I got just at the end of it, but it was very transforming to just read this discussion since there is a lot about different kind of experiences and types of energy we may encounter in our way to God. So read a bit this thread, because I feel it might be helpful to you somehow, although - as you might find out - Phil and other participants are of an opinion that BR didn't experience the Trinity - it was a different kind of realization.

Phi - about energies...
I was just wondering, because since my visions began I experienced a kind of suspension of the ordinary movements of k. I don't understand it. Even after the visions became rare, like now, the k currents are changed. So there are days when I don't feel k almost at all, although - interestingly - I feel quite clearly the effects of its activity: I can't listen to music, I can't bear noise (inspired by Shasha I keep ear-plugs by myself just in case...), I feel like avoiding alcohol, noisy clubs etc. So the effects on my life remain, but I don't feel the process in the brain so much. Sometimes I miss it, but it's not my business, so to speak, so I let go. Recently, the flow of k became again more recognizable, the 6th chakra energized, but my initial interpretation is that the HS (through the hands of Virgin Mary who in my case seems to be the "guru" that performed the powerful shaktipat in January) awakened k strongly to purify me very quickly and painfully, to lead me to the spiritual death of ego, and then withdrew k activity a bit. The phase of intense visions had its own work to do, also in the energetic body, which I noticed. So at times I feel k flowing without contemplative resting and without visions, sometimes I experience imaginative visions, which have a particular quality to it, and at times I experience contemplative resting with k or with little k, or even without k altogether (which seems similar to what Phil describes). It's very informative, since I can imagine that some people can and do deeply rest in the HS, but without energy moving, while some have both k and the power of the HS active at the same time.

I accepted that the HS leads in my own, particular way, and I'm happy to find similarities between experiences of people here on SP and my own, but sometimes I feel that my own path is different in some aspects, and I learn to accept it.
One of my observations, however, is in accord with Phil's - namely, that intense experience of contemplative grace sort of overshadows the experience of k and enlightened awareness. I like the phrase of James Arraj that greater lights just don't let us see clearly the lesser lights. Contemplation is greater light than k. I wonder if it works that way also in your experience, Jasalerno?

But I'm still left puzzled with my cycle of k - at times it's very powerful, very perceptible, but at other times, like last two or three weeks, it's hardly noticeable, apart from headeaches and brain-freezes... I understand that you, Phil, have experienced k daily in a similar fashion for those 20 years?

Jasalerno, I have also a couple of thoughts about affective ego and the transformation, but I'll write about it at another time. You ask very important questions here and it's very inspiring to dialogue with you :-)

I have many disorganized thoughts about the subject :-)...

I experienced lately spiritual death whose effect is the loss of affective memory. It seems to be a stable situation - I remember things but without emotional charge. For few weeks I also thought that I'm free from all stress because it seemed to me that thinking about possibly scary situations in the future also disappeared. But recently I've started again to face simple anxiety about the future and present problems. First I was a bit disappointed that Jesus didn't free me from all suffering (you sense subtle agenda here, no...? ), but now I accept it. I also experience my wounds from the past - they are in the body and in the unconscious patterns of emotional reactions, and it isn't healed yet. I'm in the process. But I experienced few weeks during which it seemed I'm totally free. Now I see that it was a kind of plateau, and now there's another purification, after which supposedly I'll be more free etc. etc. But I can imagine that this could be stable - fully being here now in love. Yet, I notice that even though I have a hard time now, it's easier, on the one hand, to bear it, since after the pain is gone, it's really gone and I don't come back to it, but if it's there, it's there and hurts. I accept the fact that there may be some wounds that never heal, and that it's also our participation in the loving Cross of our Lord. So on a certain level I can be "happy" that I can feel the pain of my wounds and thus commune with my Lord, and be attuned to the grace that He obtained through His own pain and His own wounds.

But there's of course real peace and real freedom and real purification and healing going on in our lives, too. I noticed two kinds of peace in my experience.

(1) peace of mind - it's achieved through meditation, attentiveness, enlightenement - it means that some "part" of your mind doesn't react and is ever still. In that part you don't "feel" anything, so you don't suffer. If you don't think, there is no fuel for suffering. If this is very thotough, like in BR case, there might be little amount of suffering caused by thinking - but there are still reactions to situations, if we're still humans, and I suppose BR is :-).
There is also here a peace of kundalini, which is similar, but in my experience it's like energy is taking over my mind, quieting it down, making it impossible to worry, be anxious, keeping me by force in the present.

(2) peace of Christ, which surpasses the mind - it's given by grace. It can be caused contemplation, which means that the sense of God's love is so powerful, that nothing can touch you deep inside. It's a peace of being loved and held by God. Love outflows in the faculties, so it's easy to suffer whatever comes.
But there's peace of faith, which seems to be the same as peace of Christ, but it's more "arid" kind of peace. I'm not sure but I think that this peace is given to people who don't experience contemplation but grow in faith up to the unitive stage.
Faith becomes - as you say - "natural", doesn't require so much effort, and the union of our will with God's give us peace. I experience it at times, but I suppose it can be stable.
It isn't the stillness and quiet of mind, it's peace of will so to speak.
I remember I came to my spiritual director, it was during really dry days, when I didn't feel k movements or love of the Trinity in me, I just practiced offering myself and all my experience to Jesus through Mary. And I was talking that it's really hard, that I have problems here and there, that I feel aridity and so on. And my director said: "But when you speak about it, you seem so peaceful..." And it struck me that there was no resistance in me, no personal agenda, no forcing any kind of change of situation. I realized that my faith and surrender to Mary and Jesus gave me peace, but of course didn't take away pain, anxiety, pressure, stress etc. This acceptence and lack of resistance wasn't the state of enlightenment (oh, I was far from this state at the moment I'm talking about...) or the peace of 6th chakra, it was grace in the form of answering the prayer of St. Ignatius - "Take, my Lord, all my freedom, my memory, my intellect and my whole will...".

So came to think that there are basically two kinds of peace - natural by 6th/7th chakra and supernatural by faith, but they have varieties of types and degrees of intensity. I think it's normal during the purificatory and illuminative stages that we experience times of great peace when all our problems seem to never existed, and times of great pain and confusion, when we vaguely remember that previous state. JOC writes about it very often, as far as I remember.

you write:

"With faith you must be always vigilant in not straying away, whereas this spontaneous kind of peace is just there."

I think that in time faith becomes "spontaneous" in the sense that we're held in grace of Jesus and it becomes habitual. In my case acts of faith really help, but at times I even can't pray, but I feel that my will is in union with Mary's will and that I dwell in Jesus peace then.

Referring to what Phil pointed out so beautifully - one kind of peace is non-relational, just our energies are making us peaceful, and the other kind of peace is deeply relational, even though may be non-verbal, non-reflective - you feel peaceful, because you surrendered to Someone and this Someone takes care of you and holds you. St. Paul says that it surpasses all mind, this peace, and thus is above the natural peace of mind that is the fruit of deep enlightenment. But my Zen master told me once, that when he was afraid of dying, he felt fear, but in a different way - he said that "the organism" was afraid, but the deep part of him didn't care. So even deeply enlightened people experience fear when there's reason for it.
I think it's our inner child that wants perfect safety, but we can't be absolutely safe in this body and in this life.

Sometimes I imagine that Phil, for instance, is never scared and is always at peace... But it might be my wishful projection ;-)?

Hi Mt

"Contemplation is greater light than k. I wonder if it works that way also in your experience, Jasalerno?"

These days it seems that k. and HS are intermingled, but the heart area which I still associate with HS is where I experience the greatest light. Because I come from spending 25 years in another tradition where it was the norm to learn to move the k. by ones own will, I came to a place where just putting my attention on the k. makes it come into activity. It's the same with the the HS. However during times of intimacey with Christ he would often be the instigator and and would help with healing and deliverance etc. Most of the time I start the flow and then come into a place of rest where there is no flow but the presence of k. and HS are merged, the mind, body, soul and spirit are at peace until the mind becomes active again and I notice the flow of one or the other or flowing into each other. Sometimes the flow is around in a circle around my body. If I've been doing too much gardening then my back will hurt where I had a back injury when the flow passes that area. I still have some emotional pain coming up, but I think the brunt of it is gone, but I use to think that and another round of release would take place. I can certainly relate to your experience of a plateau and then having more purification.

I've been graced by times of peace in daily life where I was so in the Spirit after worship that there was no fear. I've also had times when Jesus through grace placed me into a peace when I was going through a very difficult situation. Another time, when it just happened in the parking lot after attending a church service where I had received laying on of hands. I also had an experience where I had made a prayer request for release of fear where the deliverance occured while in bed that night, but while it was taking place it was so psychologically painful that I used my training as a meditator to quiet my mind while the release was happening, so that my mind was at peace until the deliverance was finished. I believe I heard Jesus say that I had passed a test. For me it was extreamly difficult. I've also used faith to help me with worry, but total freedom is my prayer. I understand what you mean by 6th and 7th chakra peace, but again I don't maintain it.

Thanks so much for sharing!

Hi again,

I'd like to ask where to find the discussion on Bernadette Roberts. What main heading is it under?

jasalerno, see https://shalomplace.org/eve/for...?r=86510506#86510506 for the response to Bernadette Roberts. You can always use the Find tab at the top part of any forum page to search out topics.

As Mt. noted, I don't think she's describing a Christian contemplative journey, which is not to say that she is not a Christian nor to deny that she understands her journey in the context of Christian faith. It is odd, however, that she rarely refers to the Holy Spirit, nor does she speak much of love, God's love, resting in love, etc. It's all much more about a shift in her awareness, experience of subjectivity, personhood, etc. -- the kinds of things we find much more in the literature on enlightenment.

-------

Mt. noted: But I'm still left puzzled with my cycle of k - at times it's very powerful, very perceptible, but at other times, like last two or three weeks, it's hardly noticeable, apart from headeaches and brain-freezes... I understand that you, Phil, have experienced k daily in a similar fashion for those 20 years?

No, not always headaches and brain freezes -- those are clearly related to excessive mental concentration, TV, music, etc. in my case. So if I'm careful and back off when I feel those coming, there's no problem. There's also commotions related to diet as well and other factors -- something going on somewhere for some reason, and I don't always know why. It's generally neither pleasant nor unpleasant, and so quite tolerable.

It sounds like in your present situation, that even though there aren't many sensation related to K activity, the effects of its prior workings remain in that you experience your consciousness differently and have to adjust your lifestyle accordingly. I would guess that so long as you do the latter, the process will go smoothly.

And:

quote:

Sometimes I imagine that Phil, for instance, is never scared and is always at peace... But it might be my wishful projection ;-)?

Well, so long as the patches on the cracks in our basement continue to hold up and we have no leaks downstairs . . .

But, yes, there is this deep peace that underpins the thoughts and feelings which accompany daily life. To abide in that peace I must give sufficient time for daily prayer and frequent reception of the Eucharist. Then, all is well, for I am awake at a level deeper than mind, which enables a peace beyond clarity of thought or understanding.

I praise you oh God for doing such a wonderful work in Phil.

Wow, what a nice post! Thanks for affirming the ministry that goes on here, jasalerno, and for your own rich sharing as well.

Andrew Strom, who wrote a book on the Lakeland Revival that you can find on Amazon, talks about Kundalini and Todd Bentley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaNiuRWHZrY

The material on Kundalini starts around the 6'00" mark.

BTW the music at the start of the video seems humorously inappropriate for the subject matter -- no?

Thanks for bringing this clip to our attention. I see Strom is referring to these unusual manifestatins as "the kundalini spirit," which is a misunderstanding of a complex dynamic, I think.


This reasoning that weird sounds/ movements and euphoric peaks is from some external, demonic force was what got the Toronto chuch kicked out of Vineyard years ago during their revival. I recall some websites showing an equation between Muktananda's kundalini activation in the ashram and the "Toronto outpouring" of the HS in it's hayday. A wide range of stuff happened at the outpouring-- barking like dogs, orgasms, laughing in the Spirit, as well as some people profoundly converted to serve Christ.

All of this attention on kundalini and the HS is good if thoughtful, balanced discussions come out of it. That's rather optimistic, I know, since most Christians have a strong, knee-jerk reaction to thinking about an internal energy system that might be associated with other religions.

Todd's story seems to be one of having started out with a glorious conversion, but without a proper submission to spiritual direction/authority, his free-form journey has left too many impulses and woundedness untamed. He appears to have opened himself up to supernatural chaos. I guess we've seen this pattern before among those who have genuine conversions to Christ, but their ultra-sensitivity to the supernatural leads to delusions and, consequently, destructive choices. It's quite sad for him and his family.

Good points, Shasha.

I've been part of prayer services where people were "slain in the Spirit" and demonstrated all sorts of kriyas, even after awakening. My understanding of this is that something akin to shaktipat is happening in praying with people and often does bring about a k arousal, complete with body jerks and adjustments to accommodate the flow of energy. If this is all happening in the context of a deeper opening to the Holy Spirit, then I'm not understanding what the problem is. People have praying in tongues and dancing from the beginning when they receive the HS; the body is bound to be affected. To call this a "kundalini spirit" a la Hinduism is too simplistic.

But do you Phil and Shasha think Christianity could benifit from distinguishing between the manifestations brought about by energy movements e.g. kundalini And pure manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

What I'm trying to say is, part of the problem seems to be that people are aware that these strange expressions are coming from a source other than the Holy Spirit. It doesn't seem to do anybody any good to mix the two up and simply say that in Hinduism these expressions are caused by Kundalini, but in Christianity they are caused by the Holy Spirit.

Does the Holy Spirit cause Kriyas, Slaying, barking, shaking etc. Or are these always energy manifestations?

As I understand the diagrams in Phil's book, it's not only our basic life-energy that gets suppressed during infancy, it's also our connection with God. It makes sense that loosening the defense mechanisms would allow both "kundalini" and the Holy Spirit to enter conscious awareness at the same time -- hence the confusion.

Jacques--

It is confusing to me too. It doesn't make sense that barking like a dog or clucking like a chicken would the motivated / mediated by the Holy Spirit. At other times, the HS seems to act upon and mediate k. movement. For instance, a friend sf mine squeezes her eyes tightly and scrunches her face when she begins to pray. This facial squeezing has been reported as a k. phenomena, but it seems prompted by HS prayer.

In order to stimulate this important discussion:


What if Kundalini is a syndrome which acts upon the Pranic system in order to integrate individuals with the Holy Spirit.

Yes, that's plausible, so long as we also recognize that the k process sometimes seems to unfold without much evidence of the Holy Spirit. I prefer to see it in the service of higher consciousness, which may or may not involve the working of the Spirit.