What follows is my opening post for this thread, originally published on August 18, 2001.

An early archive: http://shalomplace.com/res/Kun...andtheHolySpirit.pdf

Discussion from Feb. - April 2009: http://shalomplace.com/res/Kun...ndtheHolySpirit2.pdf

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Posted by Phil (Member # 1) on August 18, 2001 11:40 AMAugust 18, 2001 11:40 AM:

Sooner or later this topic needs to be discussed directly, although it is touched upon in almost every thread on this particular forum. And to start of the discussion, let me first say that I'm still learning, and have reached no final conclusions about it all.

With that proviso, here are some observations:

1. There are two "directions" that interplay in the spiritual life.
- a. the human reaching for God.
- b. God reaching for the human.

2. It seems to me that Eastern religions build upon the dynamism of the human reaching for God, while the Judeo-Christian-Islam traditions emphasize God reaching for the human. These are generalizations, of course, but I think they have merit.

3. The kundalini experience of an energy latent in most people, which becomes awakened/ignited, opens the metaphysical energy centers (chakras), and culminates with union with God in the 7th center is a superb expression of the Eastern dynamism. The kundalini process is an "ascent" from almost sub-human levels of concern and intelligence to "super-human" levels. As such, it has been called an "evolutionary energy" by Gopi Krishna and others, who view kundalini as the key to awakening and developing the fullness of our human potential and awakening us to a sense of cosmic consciousness and union with God and creation. The essay in this forum by Jim Arraj on a Christian philosophical understanding of kundalini explores this line of thinking much more fully and proposes kundalini to be a form of enlightenment, or natural union with God.

4. The Christian description of the Holy Spirit is of a "descent" from above mediated by Christ, Who gives the Spirit to transform a person unto his own Blessed consciousness. As one of the Persons of the Trinity, this Spirit is also present in all of creation, flowing through the Word and returning to the Father, and so it is present in all the world religions and responsible for the fruits of the Spirit wherever they are manifest. Flowing through Christ, the Incarnation of the Word, the Spirit works to build a new humanity in the likeness of Christ.

5. The intermingling of the human evolutionary spirit of ascent (kundalini) and the descending Spirit of blessing (Holy Spirit) are sure to intermingle in Christians who are eager for growth in the Spirit. We shouldn't be surprised to find an ignition/awakening of the kundalini dynamism in Christians who generously open themselves to grow in the Spirit through charismatic prayer, centering prayer, and other prayer forms that invite the Spirit to work.

6. It is possible at times to be in touch with the kundalini dyanmism without sensing much of the Spirit. The converse is also true. Obviously, both are often experienced together, and can be mutually complementary. But in my experience, at least, there is a difference between the two that is possible to discern.

7. The gift of the Spirit might be viewed, then, as a means by which the kundalini process is awakened in some Christians, and the Intelligence by means of which the kundalini dynamism is integrated so that the Christian grows into the fullness of his/her evolutionary destiny in Christ. This can be experienced in the life of individuals, to some extent, but moreso in the human family through time.

8. Therefore, it is easy to see how Christians who experience kundalini process during the course of their growth in the Spirit can often conclude that kundalini and the Spirit are one and the same.

9. However, one must note as well that there are many who evidence kundalini awakening without manifesting the fruits of the Spirit, and others who manifest the fruits of the Spirit without kundalini awakening.

10. Christians have much to learn from the yogic traditions on kundalini in Hinduism concerning how this energy works and how to integrate it. Care must be taken, however, to avoid viewing the differences in teachings on the Spirit and kundalini as merely semantical. As tempting as it is to equate the Hindu teaching on Shakti with the Christian teaching on the Holy Spirit, for example, such a conclusion might not be accurate. One key criterion is to ask whether those the other tradition would agree with one's assessment: e.g., would a Hindu agree that the way Christians describe the Spirit is the same as their understanding of kundalini? would Christians (the Church) agree that the ascent of Shakti through the chakras and central channel to union with Shiva above the head is a good way to understand the working of the Spirit in a Christian's life? Clearly, more dialogue between these traditions is needed before these questions can be answered.

Let's hear your thoughts and responses to these points, or any others that you'd like to ask.

Phil

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Phil,

On the previous discussion board I shared my transformative death-experience (under a different name) which was basically done by Jesus through K energy. I experienced some of common symptoms, though there's a lot "normal" stuff I've never experienced or haven't experienced YET...

It was very hard, but did me also a lot of good. It's of course very early, but I'd like to tell you about how I try to deal with a new life I was given.

The old sense of self seems to have disappeared for good. "No-self" it could be called, but it's only an aspect of my experience, nothing to get excited about - but I'm grateful that I think less about myself. In fact, if circumstances don't encourage me to, I virtually don't think or remember "myself", like I used to. This is good: I think mostly about God and others (of course, taking good care of my body and soul - that's for sure) that's the way it should be, isn't it?

The transformative process was accompanied by aridity, and after I finally accepted it, I feel like I'm more free, less attached to consolations. I let them come and go. But initially they were gone and I actually suspected they'll never come back. They did.

During aridity, I enjoyed kinds of seeing that come from energizing of the 6th and 7th chakras, similar to what Phil described and other people. For three days or so after my "death", energy soared above my head and I experience seeing from atop, but after that the energy descended to the 6th chakra, and there remained. I wonder why. But Phil says it's normal, also in his case. Sometimes I feel like I could "push" my energy above the head, but I don't try to do it, because now I decided to leave it all to Holy Spirit - I don't want to interfere, and do something, because it felt good!

Seeing from 6th chakra brought about a kind of enlightenment. A stable state which I experienced for periods of time before. Looking with the whole of the head, like the head is one, great eye. It gives the oneness of all creation. At times a different state was coming and going: my head disappeared, and there was only deep clarity, peace, subtle joy, no center of awareness. I guess this is what Zen is all about. But it came one day for two hours without my effort, then was gone. I don't do anything to bring it back, because it's impossible. I just let it be. But the seeing from the 6th chakra became stabilized, only when I'm seriously disturbed it seems to fade, so I thank you Phil for your explanation - that energy can be drawn to lower chakras at times - it makes sense. Strong emotions or other stuff in my case tend to get the energy out of the 6th, and make single-seeing fade.

This state of energy brings a lot of good in my life: it's easier to fulfill Jesus' commandments, it's easier to love, to be in the here and now in love. Maybe this was what Adam and Eve lost in the Garden? And what Jesus brought back resurrecting in the garden? perhaps.

Yet I experienced some of the hardships and weirdness Phil mentioned, warning me not to expect things to return to normal. Apart from currents of k, I started to experience head pressures and pains on different occasions. I try to study it. It's not that painful. I noticed that they come and go. I had to change the kind of music I listen to while driving my car, but most of such changes come naturally. I just spontaneously don't do what might hurt my brain. But sometimes, like after a conversation with a person who was suffering and sharing with me some of it, I felt a great discomfort in the brain.

But I found out what helps me: prayer! Liturgy of Hours immediately eased the pain, when it wasn't hard. Also talking to my fiancee and my good friends - amazingly, lovingm, intimate relationships also help my brain. And meetings with my spiritual director.

But there were some hard things - I only started to adjust. I forgot about two things in my work I had to do: it wasn't very bad, but it was neglecting my duties, which happened due to immersion in the present moment. I just don't think so much about the future and the past. I even coudln't feel ashamed or guilty! But I made a committment to make notes and carefully write down what I have do to, not to be negligent. But good thing is that the present moment, no-self state makes me more relaxed and open in relation to people. I think less what people will think of me. But I try to be reasonable.

Sometimes it's difficult to focus on my work, which is not very good, but I think I will manage with God's help. He always helps. I feel it.

I sleep less and I don't experience fatigue, like I used to. Again - need to be careful, sensible, not to sleep too less. But I always dreamt that it finally it'd be easier for me to get up in the morning. And - glory to God! it's easier now

So this is pure k part. Now I'll tell you more about how mystical graces came back and how it affected me, because it's I think more interesting. But I'm happy that most of I experience I can find on SP - it seems like something "normal".

On Thursday, with the beginning of the Triduum, mystical graces came back. I expected never to experience them again, but they came back in a similar form. What I called the vision of the Trinity or the Living Waters flowing from within has been given to me whem I'm participating in the liturgy of those holy days. It's pure as never before, but still hard to bear. I started to feel what JOC describes: the soul is being crushed by the Light of Love, because it's to weak, to impure for contemplation. So sometimes it's hard, sometimes it's blissfull, but always heart-breaking.

Another, distinct experience is of golden, loving Theotic Light, which descends and embraces everything. This Light appeared to me few times at church. It brings peace, love, quiet, it's somehow different from the Living Waters of Love in the heart, more "outside", I guess, in a way.

And the third experience, which is most puzzling, is a feeling like the body is being changed profoundly but not through k energy, but through Light of Jesus. Like energy of body is changes into His Blood, and the cells into His Body, the Bread. At times it feels like the whole of my being, body, soul and spirit is united under one, irrevocable decision to remain faithful to Jesus, to love Him, and to never sin. It's a kind of holy fear not to sin gravely. And an integration of the whole person. I guess it's transformation in Christ, I think of the Vine and the Branches or of his Mystical Body in which we are integrated. It's not like k at all, it's not very mystical either, but it's really scary sometimes, because of the depth of the process. And it brings pain too, because I'm a sinner and so impure. But it's not possible to stop now - I decided. I think this is what is the most crucial thing in Christianity - theosis, transformation, integration. It may come through contemplation, or k process, or without, doesn't it? It's union of two wills and what comes out of it.

All those three experiences are not like k process at all. I feel that k process helped me to die, lose control and let go, make me open to God's action. But now a different process continues. But I know k is still there, working. But at times when mystical graces are given, all kundalini is at peace, the pressure in the brain ceases, ears don't hurt, nothing of the sort. The flow is harmonious and gentle, the 7th chakra opens at times, receiving the light. Like uncreated energy is taking me instead of created guided by the uncreated. But after the graces are over, k comes back and does her job. So this is about how different those two are, but they can interact and be together, or everyone alone, I guess.

K energy doesn't usually make me tired, rather - refreshed. but the transformation by the golden Light of Jesus, is exhausting after 3 hours of liturgy - I really feel it. It's another difference.

Thank you, Mt, for your very rich and generous sharing. I think you express very clearly how you experience the workings of the k process and its relation to the Christian spiritual journey. How wonderful that such basic Christian practices like prayer, Liturgy of the Hours and Eucharist are not in conflict with the k process, but actually seem to work with it to help deepen your relationship with God. It sounds like God is using the k process to help facilitate a deeper, theotic embodiment.

As I've noted a number of times, my "executive summary" of the meaning of the k process is that it is a natural process to awaken and embody the consciousness of the third eye (ajna chakra; 6th chakra, etc.). It also pushes up and through the crown, at times, but I don't think a sustained opening at the crown is very common, as it's just too difficult to live in this world in that state. Instead, it seems the crown opens and closes of its own accord, and, especially, in response to certain contemplative graces. One can indeed "push" the energy up against the crown (curious how one can become volitionally involved with it, "pushing" or helping it along), but that's not a good idea unless there is a clear leading to do so. Becoming established in 3rd eye consciousness is enough of a challenge, for this is so radically different from everything that came before as to rightly entail a kind of death of one's old identity. Where, before, identify was largely rooted in self-concept/image, which the mind unconsciously and reflectively consulted very frequently, in 3rd eye one is immediately awake to the fact of one's own subjective attention, which now seems to be centered in the center of the forehead, or, at times, the whole brain. In my case, when this is well established, the mind becomes very quiet; sometimes there are no thoughts at all, and I can notice that this is so (this noticing is not exactly a reflective thought -- just a seeing). The k is "happy" when I'm in that state, which also happens to be the optimal state for relationship, as one is present to others or circumstances with no projections, agendae, etc. So love and enlightenment do not conflict, but attachment to enlightenment or enlightement without the movement to relate would not be a good thing -- would become unstable and stagnant in short order. The movement of attention and will to relate doesn't disturb 3rd eye consciousness until judgment or attachments creep in, which, alas, seems to always happen, to some degree, at some point . . . Just to notice then, let it go, and move on.

Thank you, Phil, for your deep observations and insights.

Adjustment is a challenge, now I can see that, this weirdness of living without an idea of the person as extended through time and so on... just responding to the present situation, but the response is not only "automatic" or "spontaneous" in the sense of BR or K who say that every situation has a proper response in itself. The action is out of personally embraced values (God's Law) and out of love, - or, unfortunately, out of old patterns of the self, which cause sin or some other damage.

I try to remember constantly good things against bad things. The energies of people, of environment enter my consciousness as if some screens were removed, which caused me yesterday a brain-ache after an evening in a noisy pub. But the same lack of screens unables to be compassionate, to sympathize with others, to be attentive and empathic. But there are times were old walls and screens would be helpful, when certain energies are around.

Detachment from the past and the future is weird, I have to make notes not to forget things, but it's wonderful that whatever the emotions are, when they're gone, they apparently are gone forever. It's like dying every night and being born every morning. But the sensitivity to the present moment has a downside: you have to be aware also of things which are not always very friendly.

I also started to have hard time with my Trinity visions, which intensify and are hard to bear. I feel like my heart is being crushed and overwhelmed by a huge weight of Love. I recall JOC describes something like that as a part of via illuminativa (he even mentions this spiritual "weight"), so I just accept it, whatever it takes.

I also hear your difficulties with k, Phil, which you occasionally share at SP, and I deeply sympathize with your trials and ordeals, I pray for you often - the fruits of the transformation that God done in you are so abundant for other people, for me you were and are a help without which it'd be much more hard, so I thank you deeply for your presence and love, and for your accepting endurance of whatever God leads you through in this life.

Yes, I join Phil with thanking you, Mt for your generous sharing. I think we all are grateful for being witnesses to what God is doing in your life right now. Thank God for the internet church, Shalom Place!

I remember relating to Hawkins when he said that the unity consciousness seeing is very disorienting of the time/space dimension and he got lost all the time. I have that happen all the time but understood it mostly as being scatter-brained-ish. But all that gets worked out as you gain more focus on your particular call and giftings to serve Christ's Body. There are times when a part of me has no idea where I'm driving, but somehow I get home safely.

When praying with people, I will often struggle to "come back" to mundane reality when I'm done, look up, and realize I must now squeeze myself into this dimension to get on with the agenda. Sometimes, this contraction is very painful and I don't know if it's an energy issue or something more. Like maybe I need to spend more time by myself. Sometimes when I pray, I feel heat come over me and I enter into such deep peace that I hardly can function for several minutes after. But the Lord always gets me through.

The sense of self also comes back for the same purpose, to serve the community, but it comes back in a less tightly wrapped package. You will never be the same Mt., but your friends and family will still recognize you.

Rest assured, God will certainly not let you dangle with a no-self if He's got work for you to do that requires you to have a reasonably social personality--which he appears to have for you!

And He will string along any weirdness or brokenness if that will also serve His people through you or bring Glory to Jesus. That's my guess, anyway.

BTW, you mentioned a noisy place causing you headache. Noise is my worst enemy. I'm excruciatingly (?) sensitive to noise. There are times when there is high energy in the brain (?) and the hum of the refrigerator will drive me to run from the room. My poor boys. They've never seen a Mommy need to wear earplugs most of the time. But even clanging of a spoon against a bowl of cereal is just maddening to me. Light is also bothersome but not as painful as sound.

You mention about the crushing sensation of God's Love. We have mentioned on some other thread the 'heavy' presence of God. I think it's called Kavod, right? It is so clearly not anything like kundalini.

It's like a thick, weighty presence. That sense of having a waterfall pouring down around me, so heavy that I can't stand up under it. I remember describing that on another thread, when I went up to recieve an impartation blessing from Bill Johnson. The heaviness of this Power was literally unbearable, blinding. I had to cover my face, my hands plastered desperately covering my eyes and whole face against this Love...I was crying and out of control with awe and repeating OMG, OMG, OMG! realizing I was not a fraction of the person I'd need to be to bear a fraction of His Love ...yeah, the unbearable weight of Glory.

Hi guys,
I'm still in the process of getting used to the "new normal", as Phil said, to the new life in Christ.
Currently, I'm experiencing some kind of grief over my old identity. sadness about losing some important things.
E.g. extensive reading about philosophy/theology/spirituality. Or - going to clubs, dancing - I used to love it immensely, I felt I danced with God... I went to a club last week and it was a disaster: the noise was unbearable, and dancing wasn't so good as before. I had to leave.
The past - disaffected, but I can recognize the meaningof past events, even if without emotions.
I made a list of what I can do or enjoy: walks in city parks, meeting friends, cleaning the house (ouch! ), working/teaching, and first and foremost, spending time with my girlfriend and praying/eucharist. I was wondering if I'd be able to drink, but I didn't even try: I had this strong inner feeling that I shouldn't try, so I didn't.

I discussed this all with my spiritual director, who doesn't know much about kundalini, but is very open-minded, and when she listened to me grieving about what's lost to me, maybe for ever (maybe not?), she replied with this astonishingly beautiful prayer I didn't know:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Take all my freedom. My memory, my understanding and my will. All that I have and cherish You have given me. I surrender it all to be guided by your will. Your grace and your love are wealth enough for me. Give me these, Lord Jesus, and I ask for nothing more." (St. Ignatius of Loyola)

I began to pray with that. I guess He really took my memory and my understanding and He uses it in the way it pleases Him. I let Him do that, but I guess I need some time to let go. It happened so quickly and rather unexpectedly. Is His "grace and love enough for me"? I hope so.

I still feel that I have a free choice, that He doesn't force me, but asks my permission. This is really mysterious about that Lord of ours, that He deeply honours our freedom, all along the way. I read about the fifth mansion in STA and she says that we can sort of stop in this mansion if we don't want to go further, that she knows many sisters who refused to go deeper - God wanted to give Himself more fully, but there's always choice, so many stayed in the 5th mansion. I suppose there's no going back, in terms of way of life, because I agreed for the process of dying, and what happens now is just the outcome. But I often think of what's next, further purifications. The idea of giving everything away to Him, really giving myself fully, is sometimes scary and I know that He won't force me to do it. But I have a strong decision and intention to go further, whatever may come.

Now, writing this, I'm a bit sad... but I praise Him daily and thank Him daily for what He did in me. The freedom of God's children is really unimaginable, the power of Risen Christ's life... I don't remember ever being so free of attachments, so free to choose right over wrong, free to love, to be in the present. And for this I thank Him and praise Him. And I want to offer my difficulties for the sake of others - I suppose it's the best thing to use them for the good.

Yes, I can relate to that grief about good things left behind. It's sort of like the disciples of Christ and their fishing. Even after the resurrection, they go back to it (in John's Gospel), but he meets them where they are and redirects them to a different vocation.

It may well be that some of what you once loved will become accessible to you. There are phases in this process, and one must honor them, but phases do come to an end. I can drink alcohol and eat most anything, but in moderation. Music and dancing are OK, too, at times; I like a good celebration. Just listening to music or having it on as "background" messes with the energy too much, however; small doses.

That's a great connection you've made about the 5th mansion and God waiting for our permission to go further. Much depends on one's state in life. I think God gives us the desire to go further if it's His will for us (Phil. 2, 13), so that one who seeks God generally ends up wanting what God wants for him or her.

The prayer you sent,Matt, by St.Ignatius has lit my day with hope.Thank you so very much for sharing it.

Dear Phil,

You encouraged me to join your forums so here I am. I experienced a partial awakening of k. first before receiving the HS since I practiced Transcendental Meditation for 25 years before knowing Christ personally. My k. was awakened through yogic practices. However, I'd like to mention a profound experience I had 3 days after my mother died. This happened before I practiced TM. I was lying in bed, but was not asleep and through my open window a being of light entered the room. It had a circumference about the size of a soccer ball and its light radiated out from the center and lit up my bedroom. The being came over to my bed and said to me, “Your mother is all right and you will join her, but first you have work to do.” At the time I wasn’t sure what the being meant, but later I decided it must be the great work of knowing who I am that needed to be done. Then the being entered my body and I could feel its energy flowing through me. It was a wonderful warm loving feeling, and I could feel the energy flowing from the base of my body upward. When the energy reached my throat, this overwhelming fear came over me. It felt like I was being split in two. I thought I was going to die. I was so afraid that I turned on the light and everything stopped. The being came back again the following night and I again turned on the light before the being could do anything. It was one of the most terrifying experiences I have ever had.

To this day I am not sure whether this being was Jesus or an angel, but more recently the thought came to me that maybe it was an attempt by whomever to open my k. I say attempted to open my k., because I didn't experience any symptoms of k. after this experience.

When I first started practicing meditation I took a Hatha Yoga class. I don't know if the two were related, but I had an experience one day of all of a sudden spontaneously engaging in yogic postures.

What I noticed from the awakening of k. was energy rising up from the lower part of my spine. There was a sexual element to this in the beginning as I first met my husband to be at about this time period and during a period of sexual abstinence I noticed the energy rising from the sexual area to a higher area of the abdomen. I experienced lots of physical stress release and some emotional release. I experienced blocks to the energy where I had a back injury and it gave me lots of problems with pain and pressure during meditation and outside of meditation. When my heart area started to open up I would have sharp pains in my heart at times. I also had the experience of waking up in the middle of the night having convulsive like movements and great discomfort where I could feel there was a block and the energy couldn’t pass. I also went through periods of great anxiety and didn't know the cause. I also had periods of grinding my teeth at night and trouble with my neck and TMJ.

I did experience greater energy after my meditation practice. I overcame some bad habits. I had visions of some passed lives. A kind of memory was awakened that I didn’t have previously. These visions were dull and dark coming up from the subconscious mind. Apparently I was able to communicate via telepathy, but didn’t realize this until I met Gangaji, another teacher.

I started seeing Gangaji as I was beginning to become somewhat dissatisfied with the TM movement and was attracted to her on watching a video of her. I believe I received a transmission of shaktipat from her while we looked into each others eyes. I was at a retreat and at that very moment we were all told to pair off and engage in this exercise where we were to take turns asking each other, "What do you need?" Just prior to sitting down in front of this woman I had paired off with, I felt my awareness expand into a wide place. I felt I didn't need anything. I felt self-sufficient because of the unbounded state I was in. Then my awareness shifted again and I looked at the woman and knew her to be a part of myself. I just put my hands up in a nameste acknowledging that she was a part of me. It was an overwhelming experience of unity.

When I returned home from that retreat where I had received that transmission, I felt quite different. I had this freedom, a fearlessness that I didn’t have before, a lightness, a lot more energy and a feeling of happiness. Some people including my husband noticed a difference. A friend came to see me to ask if I could lend him some money because his girlfriend was in the hospital with brain cancer. I made a check out to him for the contents of my checking account without a thought, which was very unlike me. After a couple of weeks this change mostly disappeared, however, I began to see light above my head in my meditation. Over the following months I began to take that light energy into my body. I would realize later that this light was what Christians call the Holy Spirit.

While on a retreat with Gangaji on another occasion I was on a hike up a small mountain with someone and shortly after I started to ascend up the mountain I went into this cosmic consciousness experience again and watched myself experience my heart beating fast as I was trying to keep up with my companion. When we got close to the top we stopped to catch our breath and I was looking at a tree and my awareness shifted and I knew the tree to be a part of myself. Then I looked over to my companion and I knew him to be a part of myself, another clear-cut unity experience.

At the end of this retreat while I was listening to a video I had this experience of a bright beam of light coming down through my head and I knew it was from Gangaji. I gasped because it was so over powering.

Upon returning home I went through a period of intense mental release of stress. I began to think about my past and the things that I had done that I needed to address. I remember writing to Gangaji and she reminded me to remember who I was, “That”. Being in a state of mental turmoil would remind me who I am and I would immediately go into that stillness temporarily even in the midst of this mental turmoil. Although this was helpful, I wanted to be totally free.

After having tasted unity, I wanted to experience it on my own. I actually had this happen. I was sitting on a park bench that summer after my last retreat with Gangaji. I was looking at some weeds that were moving around in the breeze and all of a sudden they were a part of me dancing for me in the breeze inside of me. You can’t properly speak of this. It just is.

I had a falling out with Gangaji because I began to see her faults and this bothered me. I was reading Jeanne Gyon's "Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ" on her prayer of simplicity and also "The Impersonal Life" by Joseph Benner. I decided to call upon Jesus and he answered me. That was the beginning of my personal relationship with him.

After knowing Jesus, I was in meditation and the energy of the kundalini started to enter unknown territory. This great fear came over me as the energy wanted to push past the back of the neck and up into my head. I called on Jesus because of my fear. He said, “I can’t help you.” This was something I had to do on my own. I had to overcome the fear and allow the energy to pass. I let go and the energy went up into my head along the two sides of my face and then at a later time it would go to the crown and then above the crown where I would become aware of a point of light at the top of a stream emanating out of the top of my head. It seemed that attached to this point of light was a black hole and at the end of that was another layer of creation that would again flow into a black hole and then a third black hole that would come out into another layer. I must have been witnessing the layers of creation.

At some point Jesus came to me in the Spirit and baptized me with his fire. And he kept saying over and over, I baptize thee in the name of the Father… And even though I felt like I had already been baptized, I felt it was Jesus way of cementing our relationship. I’d come to him often and receive from him, and this eventually led to a full immersion in him. And I had been speaking in tongues off and on after receiving that transmission from Gangaji, but this became stronger after Christina, one of the pastor’s at the church I was attending verified that was what was going on with me and from regularly using this gift during worship.

Jesus came to me once and showed me him in all his glory, in an ecstatic experience but it wasn’t in me it was outside (an open vision). It was like a preview of what is to come. It was beautiful and all I could say was oh blessed be over and over. I have never felt so loved in all my life. I did not see his face, but light started pouring out of everything until all I could see was his blazing light and I knew Jesus was in the center of that because I could feel his love.

In my gratitude for the grace of God my heart was opened more and more. The devotion in my heart for God wells up and I want to worship and give him praise. And the more I surrendered my heart and mind to God, the more grace was received until I became lost in him, like a moth into a flame. I became one with him. The bridegroom takes his bride into marriage, into Unity with him. Jesus was pure in heart and mind. I had finally found the final teacher for me. He taught me about the highest love, which is unconditional with no attachment. And even though he is not on the physical plane, I have an intimate relationship with him. I know that through this love my heart will fully blossom. It will release the remainder of my impurity. I discovered that this opening of the heart facilitates the release of impurity even more, much more then before I received the Holy Spirit. Through knowing the Christ consciousness I experience that Unity in him.

The awakening of the Holy Spirit was different as I explained what happened when coming home from Gangaji’s retreat. It was through receiving the Holy Spirit, the downward flow of energy that really began to open my heart. The process of awakening continued with the support of Jesus. Knowing him at that time was really wonderful. He was so loving and supportive through times of very difficult purification. I continued to receive transmissions and healing from him throughout that whole time period.

The flow of the Spirit came down through the top of the head into the heart and through its opening I began to experience both visually and through the sense of feeling the expansion of the heart outside the body. I experienced feelings of overwhelming devotion. I began to be able to move this energy through my body, around the chakras, circulate it around my spine like a whirlwind and send it up and out of the top of my head and have it spiral up over my head into the stream of life. I could also move it down through my body into the earth. This energy had a healing effect on my body.

I then learned how to go to another person in the spirit and transfer energy to that person. When I brought this energy into the third eye area, I would see colorful visions. I saw the colors of the Trinity coming down into the heart and merging there as a purple gold color. I also started to visualize colors when using this energy in healing myself. I also had an out of the body experience where I had the desire to travel to the central universe. I believe I traveled to the gates, but Jesus stopped me from going any further and said if I continued on I wouldn’t come back. I don’t remember making a decision but found myself coming back to my body. I also started to receive revelation about different things, either directly from Jesus or it would just come to me. The culmination of all of this was the experience of unity where my little self-awareness surrendered totally in stillness, with my heart fully expanded and fully filled by the Spirit. There was no more me, or God out there somewhere; we were one. That was expanded out into infinity as consciousness, heart, and spirit. That contained everything. There was nothing outside of itself. It was still and non-changing and at the same time unbounded and full of bliss. It was a shocking experience because it fulfilled a deep longing that I had finally tasted. And having had that experience, you want to be established in that, to be totally free. And it also was so fulfilling because Jesus had given me that open vision of himself in his full glory and now it was happening to me, only it wasn’t me anymore.

So, you ask if the Hindu experience of shakti is the same as the Holy Spirit. From my experience, the downward flow of shakti and the Holy Spirit is the same. The upward flow of k., I believe is not the Holy Spirit. I was speaking in tongues before I personally met Jesus. I believe he did baptize me in the Spirit, but I felt it was to cement our relationship. Jesus was there for me when the k. energy went up into my head and his many transmissions of Spirit to strengthen and heal me are so much appreciated.

After all of this I don't feel my journey is complete because I don't maintain the experience of k in the third eye or crown area or for that matter, the Holy Spirit. I think the idea is to live it, and that's not yet my experience. I think it is because I still have stress to release and to become more in control of my emotions so that they don't create more pain. I also have a back injury that still causes blocks to k. I'm sorry that this is so long, but I have no one to talk to about all of this so I'm sharing my experience here. My church wouldn't accept all of this and my old TM friends aren't interested in my experience with Jesus. There are probably some things I have said here that maybe you find hard to accept, but I'm just sharing my experience. Thank you for listening.

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Thank you Jasalerno, I resonate very deeply with your experiences, although not all.

You put into words what many of us struggle with. This morning as I read your post, I am moved to a place of humble acknowledgement of the greatness of God and the gift of who you are.

May you continue to awaken and unfold in the love of Jesus.

Dear Jasalerno, I second Clare's words of welcome and gratitude.

You've certainly been blessed with a wide range of mystical experiences, which you describe very clearly. The distinctions you're making between Kundalini and the Holy Spirit also speak for themselves. I think many of us here can empathize with your experience of not having anyone with whom you can speak openly about your experiences. That's because these kinds of experiences aren't common, and they sort of fall between the cracks of a number of religious and metaphysical disciplines. "Kundalini Christians," in particular, are a rather odd breed!

Dear Phil and Clare,

Thank you for your welcome. Clare, thank you for sharing the fact that you resonated with some of my experiences. Yes Phil, we are odd aren't we.

Dear Jasalerno,

Welcome to Shalom Place. It is a pleasure to 'meet' you. Thank you for taking the time to tell us a bit about your spiritual journey. So many of the experiences you describe and questions you've raised overlap with many of ours here. Feel free to jump into any of the ongoing discussions or start a new one if you don't see a topic of interest. Phil's had this on-line church, as I like to call it, for many years, and so there's hardly a subject that hasn't been broached.

In terms of this particular thread discussion, I'm curious about your comment that, in your experience, "the downward flow of shakti" is the same as the Holy Spirit. Perhaps we'll need to clarify terms. Shakti usually means kundalini energy. I'm not sure how you are distinguishing shakti from k in your post. In the ashrams I've been in, one can feel the shakti in the meditation hall, for instance. There they actually bow to the Shakti as a personal Goddess. In my experience, shakti is a kind of energy vibration that can be 'felt' in a sense, but it's just energy. This energy will manifest as a diety if you summon it/her.

However, the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Holy Trinity. It has a different 'job description,' function, and origin. In my experience, the Holy Spirit can, at times, be a felt kind of energy which is why it's confused with kundalini shakti. But the HS goal is the transformation of one's character, bringing one into a New Creation in Christ.

peace to you,
Shasha