Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
P. Dark Nights of the Soul Login/Join
 
posted Hide Post
Actually, I think we're both on the same page. So....keep bouncin Wink
 
Posts: 609 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: 27 April 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
Actually, I think we're both on the same page. So....keep bouncin

Maybe I should refrain from calling it a rubber suit. Na�ve ol� me, I�m, of course, thinking of a diving wet suit. That sort of rubber suit thingie. Or maybe the kind of rubber suit that the actor who played Godzilla was wearing during filming of the stomping-on-Tokyo scenes. But when I did a quick Google to find a picture of a rubber suit to sort of use as a joke, my naivete was revealed in all it�s splendid Gomer Pyle-dom. Just don�t ask me what they�re using rubber suits for these days. It doesn�t seem to be for swimming around coral reefs spearing fish.

With that impressive thought behind me, let�s move on. Surely a rubber room is still an appropriate term, especially now.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
Speaking of Dark Nights is surely a very personal thing, and everyone has (or should have) a venue where they are comfortable talking about these things. The internet may or may not be such a place. But I found the following words from Henri Nouwen from his book, Can You Drink the Cup?, to be helpful:

quote:
Nothing is sweet or easy about community. Community is a fellowship of people who do not hide their joys and sorrows but make them visible to each other in a gesture of hope. In community we say: "Life is full of gains and losses, joys and sorrows, ups and downs�but we do not have to live it alone. We want to drink our cup together and thus celebrate the truth that the wounds of our individual lives, which seem intolerable when lived alone, become sources of healing when we live them as part of a fellowship of mutual care."
Can an internet forum facilitate (not replace) and even expand on what happens in "real life" in face-to-face communications between church members or between a church member and a pastor or priest?

As I look around the internet I see this sense of community or fellowship as an implicit goal when people get together. Often of secondary interest is the subject at hand. It�s the discussion that is invigorating, not necessarily the subject being discussed. And we all sort of tippy-toe around this fact, no one wanting to come out and say the obvious that "I am here to love and to be loved." People don�t talk like that. It�s not done. Stick to the two or three levels of separation and simply talk about cars or computers. Stick to the agreed-upon script. But might an internet forum, particularly a religious internet forum, blaze a trail in this regard. Can we come out and openly say that "Here�this is me. Show me you. There. That wasn�t so bad now, was it?" Henri continues:

quote:
So often we are inclined to keep our lives hidden. Shame and guilt prevent us from letting others know what we are living. We think: "If my family and friends knew the dark cravings of my heart and my strange mental wanderings, they would push me away and exclude me from their company." But the opposite is true. When we dare to lift our cup and let our friends know what is in it, they will be encouraged to lift their cups and share with us their own anxiously hidden secrets. The greatest healing often takes place when we no longer feel isolated by our shame and guilt and discover that others often feel what we feel and think what we think and have the fears, apprehensions, and preoccupations we have.

Lifting our lives to others happens every time we speak or act in ways that make our lives lives for others. When we are fully able to embrace our own lives, we discover that what we claim we also want to proclaim. A life well held is indeed a life for others. We stop wondering whether our life is better or worse than others and start seeing clearly that when we live our life for others we not only claim our individuality but also proclaim our unique place in the mosaic of the human family.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
Beautifully said Brad Smiler What drew me to this forum was the great joy of giving, receiving and sharing in our lives together our thoughts and hearts. We are connected through spirit and soul, members of each other who share in the joys, despair, trials and triumphs that are part of our daily lives. I have learned that it is okay to agree and/or disagree with others without leaving the forum like I did last year due to a real or imagined threat to my ego or my fragile self-worth in the presentation of a thread which was not received as I desired and had hoped for. The truth is I missed the people I had left behind during my absence. Some of you may have been glad about my leaving, but I returned stronger than ever before. It gave me the courage, strength and taught me to jump right back in again into the joyful sea of our consciousness that is ever willing and ready to give without depletion.

I also like the idea of being accepted just as I am. Here it is 12:16 in Oregon and I am still in my flannel nightgown, old robe, legs crossed, my coffee at hand, disheveled hair, hey, but who really cares as to how I look and what I am wearing. I have no cute picture on display like Terri, who looks absolutely adorable, instead I am shrouded and a mystery to all of you just as everyone else is to me.

Last night I made zuchini bread and my eyes skipped over the recipe without seeing that I needed to add baking powder together to the baking soda. Needless to say, God's graces made it turn out pretty edible. So who says we need perfection in everything that we do or say.

Reading some of Brad's posts yesterday what came to mind was that we can please some of the people some of the time, but never at any time can we please everyone at the same time, no matter how much we try and all the efforts we put forth in such doings. I rejoice in the knowledge of being an imperfect human being who will always be loved by some, rejected by others, so I just need to be me and free in the light of love as we all lift our glasses and drink our cup of joy together. Everyone have a blessed day! Smiler
 
Posts: 571 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 20 June 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
Hi Brad, Freebird,

Internet community is a strange and wonderful thing. It is so new. Google started in, as I recall, 95 and that is about the time I came online. I'm glad for it. "Virtual" doesn't quit describe the reality I sense. Although Shalom Place is virtually the only place in the world I�m known as my middle name.
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Baltimore | Registered: 23 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
The following is of track, but I want to mention Terri who is an old timer here on Shalom Place, and acknowledge the great insights given in her postings. It is really good Terri that you are visiting here more often. Hi to Terri Smiler
 
Posts: 571 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 20 June 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
Hi, Ryan. Welcome to the virtual world. Smiler

Here's something I ran across that might have something to do with Dark Nights, how we might relate to them, how we might make use of and integrate our more painful moments of life. This is from Henri Nouwen's Can You Drink the Cup? At the very least, reading it may put one in a frame of mind in which one can appreciate or approach a Dark Night experience from a different perspective. I found this description to be moving:

quote:
One very moving celebration I remember was that of Bill's Life Story Book. A Life Story Book is a collection of photographs, stories, and letters put together as a sort of biography. When Bill came to Daybreak as a sixteen-year-old, he brought few memories with him. He had had a very troublesome childhood and hardly any consistent experiences of love and friendship. His past was so broken, so painful, and so lonely that he had chosen to forget it. He was a man without a history.

But during twenty-five years at Daybreak, he gradually has become a different person. He has made friends. He has developed a close relationship with a family he can visit on weekends or holidays, joined a bowling club, learned woodworking, and traveled with me to places far and wide. Over the years he has created a life worth remembering. He even found the freedom and the courage to recall some of his painful childhood experiences and to reclaim his deceased parents as people who had given him life and love notwithstanding their limitations.

Now there was enough material for a Life Story Book because now there was a beautiful although painful story to tell. Many friends wrote letters to Bill telling him what they remembered about him. Other sent photographs or newspaper clippings about events he had been part of, and others just made drawings that expressed their love for him. After six months of work, the book was finally ready, and it was time to celebrate, not just the new book, but Bill's life, which it symbolized.

Many came together for the occasion in the Dayspring Chapel. Bill held the book and lifted it up for all to see. It was a beautifully colored ring binder with many artistically decorated pages. Although it was Bill's book, it was the work of many people.

Then we blessed the book and Bill, who held it. I prayed that this book might help Bill let many people know what a beautiful man he is and what a good life he was living. I also prayed that Bill would remember all the moments of his life�his joys as well as his sorrows�with a grateful heart.

While I prayed, tears started to flow from Bill's eyes. When I finished he threw his arms around me and cried loudly. His tears fell on my shoulder while everyone in the circle looked at us with a deep understanding of what was happening. Bill's life had been lifted up for all to see, and he had been able to say it was a life to be grateful for.

Now Bill takes his Life Story Book with him on his trips. He shows it to people as a man who believes his life is not something to be ashamed of. To the contrary, it is a gift for others.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Freebird:
[qb] The following is of track, but I want to mention Terri who is an old timer here on Shalom Place, and acknowledge the great insights given in her postings. It is really good Terri that you are visiting here more often. Hi to Terri Smiler [/qb]
Hello there Freebird Smiler

I'm enjoying reading the posts in this thread, and I appreciate your gracious words!

Blessings,
Terri
 
Posts: 609 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: 27 April 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brad:
[qb]As I look around the internet I see this sense of community or fellowship as an implicit goal when people get together. Often of secondary interest is the subject at hand. It�s the discussion that is invigorating, not necessarily the subject being discussed.[/qb]
I'd agree very much with that thought. There is a level of safety involved in the anonymity of being a "poster" or "chatter" or a "blogger." It is a medium that allows one to participate without fulling disclosing anything about themselves until they've reached a certain level of comfort.

I love Henri's work, but I'd have to disagree with him slightly in his remarks here:

quote:
We think: "If my family and friends knew the dark cravings of my heart and my strange mental wanderings, they would push me away and exclude me from their company." But the opposite is true. When we dare to lift our cup and let our friends know what is in it, they will be encouraged to lift their cups and share with us their own anxiously hidden secrets.
While it would be wonderful if this were always true, alas, it is often exactly as one fears. That's not to say we shouldn't share ourselves but rather that when we do, we should be prepared to deal with the fact that there are some who will indeed push us away. What is important, imho, in this exercise or leap of faith, is knowing that whether one accepts us or not does not elevate or denigrate who we are. Ultimately, it is the giving of the opportunity to the other person to share themselves that is the core of it.

I very much agree that it brings about a healing within ourselves to do this.

quote:
Originally posted by Freebird:
[qb] I have learned that it is okay to agree and/or disagree with others without leaving the forum like I did last year due to a real or imagined threat to my ego or my fragile self-worth in the presentation of a thread which was not received as I desired and had hoped for.[/qb]
Absolutely! It's sometimes a hard bump in the road to get past, but I understand what you're saying, and I think those are wise words.

Brad, I loved that excerpt about Bill's Life Story Book. That is a wonderful story. That we would all be able to lift up our "Life Story" and be embraced is a desire most cherished, I think.

Hi Ryan! Good to have you in the convo Smiler

Blessings,
Terri
 
Posts: 609 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: 27 April 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
Henri asserted: We think: "If my family and friends knew the dark cravings of my heart and my strange mental wanderings, they would push me away and exclude me from their company." But the opposite is true. When we dare to lift our cup and let our friends know what is in it, they will be encouraged to lift their cups and share with us their own anxiously hidden secrets.

Terri rebutted: While it would be wonderful if this were always true, alas, it is often exactly as one fears.

I see your point, Terri. But might we say that at least something is pushed away if we don�t dare share the cravings of our hearts and strange mental wanderings with others? Don�t we perhaps push life away if we insist on living within the boundaries of what is non-threatening to those around us? I think one of the true arts in life is knowing when to say "To hell with what the rest of them think. This is what I think. And to hell with what everyone else is doing. This is what I�m going to do and I think it right and proper that I do so."

Oh, we all probably know only too well the price one often pays for being authentic. And that is surely one reason we find it so easy to stay in what is commonly referred to as our false selves.

That's not to say we shouldn't share ourselves but rather that when we do, we should be prepared to deal with the fact that there are some who will indeed push us away.

I agree. Perhaps that�s one reason I use the rubber suit analogy. We must at least be prepared to mentally wear one and not let the slings and arrows of fortune, outrageous or otherwise, unnecessarily buffet us and have undue influence over us. Again, perhaps that�s a rather na�ve Nouwenesque ideal that becomes rather unworkable, or difficult to work, in the real world where compromising ourselves becomes easy, especially when we rationalize it as being good, as doing what it takes to "get along", etc. That�s a road to losing oneself as well.

What is important, imho, in this exercise or leap of faith, is knowing that whether one accepts us or not does not elevate or denigrate who we are.

I loved the way you�ve nuanced this subject, Terri, and I think you�re right-on again. And you seem to suggest that we need to be anchored to something more than just the opinions of others. I would agree. And at the same time, we live with people and it becomes important to us what others think, and rightfully so. Perhaps that�s what they say about choosing one�s friends carefully. It�s not that we need to surround ourselves with yes-men or yes-women, but it would surely do to surround ourselves with people around whom we didn�t have to walk on eggshells and could just be ourselves. And hopefully we return that to others as well. And if we�re really grown on this path, we�ll give that right to complete strangers as well. And then maybe we will have arrived.

Brad, I loved that excerpt about Bill's Life Story Book. That is a wonderful story.

Well, it truly brought a tear to my eye when I read it. But then I�m a sucker for such things.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
Brad, you've touched on a multitude of subjects here...as usual Big Grin ..which, of course, is one thing I love about these dialogues.

quote:
But might we say that at least something is pushed away if we don�t dare share the cravings of our hearts and strange mental wanderings with others? Don�t we perhaps push life away if we insist on living within the boundaries of what is non-threatening to those around us?
You betcha. One of the most crippling things that can happen in life, again imho, is to keep all of ourselves so tightly locked away that we aren't even real to people around us. Yet, it is that very thing that happens often times after a series of rejections. It is extremely difficult to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and reach out again. To touch on your comments about the internet and message boards earlier, this is one venue which has been a catharsis for me personally, and I see it as a way in which I can extend myself. Imagine my surprise when I found that there were actually people who would read about what I think or even *gasp* see my opinion as valid? This is my stepping-out-of-the-boundary exercise Wink .

quote:
We must at least be prepared to mentally wear one and not let the slings and arrows of fortune, outrageous or otherwise, unnecessarily buffet us and have undue influence over us. Again, perhaps that�s a rather na�ve Nouwenesque ideal that becomes rather unworkable, or difficult to work, in the real world where compromising ourselves becomes easy, especially when we rationalize it as being good, as doing what it takes to "get along", etc. That�s a road to losing oneself as well.
This is the tricky part isn't it? Rabbi David Wolpe (the guy who comments on a lot of the biblical stuff on the History channel, et al) made the statement once that the reason God gave us such diverse families was because it forced us, in a way, to learn to deal with/get along with/respect, etc. others. While at the same time, it forced us to learn who we were in the process and understand that we, too, are individual yet a member of the family. This experience helps us to deal with the outside world or work/school/church, etc. The trick is learning the difference between compromising ourselves and making compromises in a situation so that we can "get along," without the consequence of becoming merely a puppet of society or our surroundings.

quote:
And you seem to suggest that we need to be anchored to something more than just the opinions of others. I would agree. And at the same time, we live with people and it becomes important to us what others think, and rightfully so. Perhaps that�s what they say about choosing one�s friends carefully. It�s not that we need to surround ourselves with yes-men or yes-women, but it would surely do to surround ourselves with people around whom we didn�t have to walk on eggshells and could just be ourselves.
Ideally, we compliment each other. Just as an illustration, I'll use my best friend, myself, and my husband. My best friend (of nearly 30 years) is such a free person. She's an artist, a bit wild, and isn't afraid to express herself in any situation. She's 60 years old now and has mellowed some with age, but you can imagine her at 30. I mean this woman climbed the lightpost (one of those 20-25 footers..lol) at the "Farewell to Texas Jam" in 1980 just to try to get a better look at the stage...LOL!! Mercy me. Compared to her, I'm practically stoic. BUT, when I'm with her, I can allow myself the freedom to tap into a certain part of myself that not just anyone gets to see. While compared to my husband, I'm the wild one. He always says he was born old..lol...and in some ways he's right. He's one of the most straight-as-an-arrow persons I know, and that is a good thing because it's what I need to balance out the "out there" part of me.

It seems to me that we are actually composites of many people. And when we are with certain people, we relate more through one part of who we are, while when we are with others, we relate more with a different part. The parts make a whole, and we will never be everything, all the time, with everyone. Or if we are supposed to be, I haven't figured out how to do it yet Wink .

I think what I'm getting at, while rambling on, is that when our senses become keen enough to "read" people, we reach into that part of ourselves that will relate to them. Granted, there's going to be some we can't relate to on any level, but that doesn't mean we stop seeking a common ground. In this way, we continue to be who we are, allow others to be who they are, and understand that each human animal is a marvelous tapestry, ripe with colors and experiences we can enjoy, or even in some cases, see the danger in.


quote:
And if we�re really grown on this path, we�ll give that right to complete strangers as well. And then maybe we will have arrived.
A goal to strive for, I think.

Wonderful conversation!
Blessings,
Terri
 
Posts: 609 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: 27 April 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
This next story is from the same book by Henri Nouwen, Can You Drink the Cup. It prompted me to consider to what extent we're all wandering around blind, dead, and somewhat in a Dark Night. There's so much light and lightness at our fingertips at every moment. The question becomes, will we seize it? Can we seize it? Do we know how to seize it? And there's even an element in the story that touches on what Terri said that The trick is learning the difference between compromising ourselves and making compromises in a situation so that we can "get along,"�

quote:
A few years ago, one of the handicapped members of the Daybreak community had to spend a few months in a mental hospital in Toronto for psychological evaluation. His name is Trevor. Trevor and I had become close friends over the years. He loved me and I loved him. Whenever he saw me coming, he ran up to me with a great radiant smile. Often he went into the fields and collected wildflowers for me�

During the time Trevor was away from Daybreak, I decided to go see him. I called the hospital chaplain and asked him if I could visit my friend. He said I was welcome to come and wondered if it would be all right if he invited some of the ministers and priests in the area and some members of the hospital staff to have lunch with me. Without thinking much about the implications of this request, I said immediately, "Sure, that will be fine."

When I arrived at 11:00 a.m., a large group of clergy and hospital personnel was waiting for me, and they welcomed me warmly. I looked around for Trevor, but he wasn't there. So I said: "I came here to visit Trevor. Can you tell me where I can find him?" The hospital chaplain said: "You can be with him after lunch." I was stunned and said, "But didn't you invite him for lunch?" "No, no," he said, "that's impossible. Staff and patients cannot have lunch together. Moreover, we have reserved the Golden Room for this occasion, and no patient has ever been allowed in that room. It is for staff only." "Well," I said, "I will only have lunch with you all when Trevor can be there too. Trevor and I are close friends. It is for him that I came, and I am sure he would love to join us for lunch." I noticed some mixed reactions to my words, but after some whispering I was told that I could bring Trevor with me to the Golden Room.

I found Trevor on the hospital grounds, as always, looking for flowers. When he saw me his face lit up, and he ran up to me as if we had never been apart and said, "Henri, here are some flowers for you." Together we went to the Golden Room. The table was beautifully set, and about twenty-five people had gathered around it. Trevor and I were the last to sit down�

People were making small talk. Many of the guests were strangers trying to get to know each other. The general atmosphere was quiet, somewhat solemn. I got quickly involved in a conversation with my right-hand neighbor and didn't pay much attention to Trevor. But suddenly Trevor stood up, took his glass of Coke, lifted it, and said with a loud voice and a big smile: "Ladies and gentlemen�a toast!" Everyone dropped their conversation and turned to Trevor with puzzled and somewhat anxious faces. I could read their thoughts: "What in the heck is this patient going to do? Better be careful."

But Trevor had no worries. He looked at everybody and said: "Lift up your glasses." Everyone obeyed. And then, as if it were the most obvious thing to do, he started to sing: "When you're happy and you know it�lift your glass. When you're happy and you know it�lift your glass. When you're happy and you know it, when you're happy and you know it, when you're happy and you know it�lift your glass." As he sang, people's faces relaxed and started to smile. Soon a few joined Trevor in his song, and not long after everyone was standing, singing loudly under Trevor's direction�.With his unique blessing, Trevor had set the tone for a joyful and fruitful meeting. The cup of sorrow and joy had become the cup of blessings�

Many people feel cursed�cursed by God with illnesses, losses, handicaps, and misfortunes. They believe their cup doesn't carry any blessings�Trevor did what nobody else could have done. He transformed a group of strangers into a community of love by his simple, unself-conscious blessing. He, a meek man, became the living Christ among us.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
Hi Brad, Terri,

Thanks so much for this theme. I'm a Nouwen follower -- hope that is not too strong a word. I saw him at Notre Dame where he shared the stage with a small group of disabled adults from Daybreak. At that time, I was working with disabled people, and doing so, in part to better understand Nouwen's message.

I have not read that story from Can You Drink This Cup, but reading it now, I have a "these are my kind of people" sentiment.

I'd like to commet on the line, "Many people feel cursed..." There was one time I'm thinking of when I not only felt cursed, I thought, "I'm cursed." It was such a repellant thought that I tried not to think it. I felt cursed because "I" was so very identified with my physical body, my mortal body that will decay. I knew I was identified with my mortal coil in that moment because, moments before I had felt the presence of Spirit with singular intensity. I wanted to serve the spiritual presence, wanted to be filled with the presence and then, the presence was gone.

I have reflected a lot on that "I'm cursed" moment. It resonates with John of the Cross when he talks about the wounded stag, the wound of love.

We don't know the pain of divine absence until we have sensed presence. Part of the pain of absence is feeling identified with other people who we wanted distance from, the ones we had judged. Divine absence clears the eye of judgment toward others and turns curse to one's self.

Mercifully, that "I'm cursed" moment was brief. A purgatory rather than a hell. Ahh the sheer grace. I hope that moment taught me something about incarnational compassion for all flesh.

To be honest, I'm searching for ways of articulating what that moment taught me then and is still teaching me now. I'm not alltogether clear about its meaning.
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Baltimore | Registered: 23 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
It might be helpful at some point to re-visit the opening posts, which attempt to explain what Dark Nights mean in terms of the emergence of contemplative spirituality. That was how John of the Cross (who coined the term) explained Dark Nights. It's come to have other meanings -- like almost anyone going through depression or feeling God's absence tends to think they're in a Dark Night of the Soul. That's not necessarily true; sometimes negative experiences aren't in the service of spiritual emergence at all.

St. John was very specific in the signs indicating the emergence of the Dark Night, and the kinds of struggles one could expect to have during the process. First and foremost is that this applies to serious spiritual seekers, who have already experienced a time of closeness to God and who have been established in their faith. It is these who are being "weaned," as it were, of affective consolations to enable a deeper, contemplative awakening to emerge.

For those who haven't read his classical work, The Dark Night of the Soul, I'd highly recommend it, especially if you think you might be going through something like this in your life.
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
Hi Phil,

Thanks for your note. I've been reading this thread bottom up, and not very far up at that. I need to go now, but when I get some time, I want to read it top down.
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Baltimore | Registered: 23 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9