That's powerful sharing, Asher, and a cogent reminder that we do possess a spiritual nature that transcends space and time. If I were a New Agey guy, I'd be all excited about your experiences, but, alas, you see clearly that even these exalted psyche states do not of themselves really produce the liberation we seek.

It sounds like you're keenly aware of what is real and unreal about all of this, so I do not take your self-deprecating remarks to be other than recognition of a more subtle level of false self manifestation. That's good insight on your part.

Is it possible to enjoy the "simple things" -- a good meal, a walk outside, the company of a friend, etc.?

Let us know how it goes.

Yes, Phil, I went out yesterday with my friend, but it is arduous, because (especially if one gets into the habit of "attuning others") it becomes natural to see and feel the contents of other peoples thoughts, emotional patterns etc. I'm lucky to have a few friends who are kind and do not expect things from me on that level.

I suppose that much of physics in relationships are goverened by dynamics that we rarely see. Often we are dependent on other people at some level. I had this problem in class this year. One of my professors would talk about her dying mother and I would walk out of the class drained and debilitated.

I think part of the practice at this point is to avoid all such powers (ie. I could see them becoming habitual/addictive...people appear as energies around you, and you enter into those and certain details can be discovered, which can then be confirmed. I'm sure if one spent a lifetime studying this, the information could become more precise) and turn completely to God. God, it seems, can use these energies to move one beyond them. Also, what seems key, is after one has trasferred/surrendered this to God in prayer and in brokeness, that they try as hard as possible to interact, go out, enjoy relationships. I think this state also begins to open up other realms that seem to either be imaginary or false. For instance, I understood something of the Hindu Gandharva realm (celestial musicians) and heard the most beautiful music.

The funny thing is that I was trained (though reading etc) to have an aversion for all these things. Apparantly, they can be connected to other egoic issues and desires. If the ego finds no fulfillment in the world, I suppose seeks it elsewhere. Ultimately, these are disturbances of energy and they don't amount to much, imho.

I advise anyone who feels these not to be paranoid, or to think they are demonic (I see them as neutral) but to gently explore them; not to cling to them, or make a habit of reverting to them. Ultimately, they are energy in movement, not the peace of God. But God can/does mediate through them, to develop our strength.

I feel sick and full of myself and useless to other people. One cannot go on in this state. Even if there is the possibility of praying for others at a distance, there is a subtle sense that "I have done this" or it is benefiting me. I feel sick. Alone. And useless to others and to myself.

From personal experience, Asher, I would say that you are feeling some �good� things. You could be getting in touch with your innate poverty, in other words, your complete dependence on things outside of yourself. I think when this is touched on, no matter how obliquely, we�ll get all these feelings rushing in and they sure do feel like �useless�. But we�re useless only when we think ourselves originator of goodness, not as conduits. But think about how little good people do each other when they think of themselves as little gods and lead with their egos and think they are the source of the power and creativity. Consider the feelings not a repudiation of who you are but a deepening of understanding of how you relate to the world and god. It�s a good thing, for sure.

Yes, Phil, I went out yesterday with my friend, but it is arduous, because (especially if one gets into the habit of "attuning others") it becomes natural to see and feel the contents of other peoples thoughts, emotional patterns etc.

I�ve been delving just a bit into Jungian shadow side stuff lately. And one explanation of stuff like this is that when we have an emotional response to the words and actions of others it�s because our own often hidden wants and desires (or undesirable characteristics) are being activated by the other and/or projected onto them. The point would be to notice this and to acknowledge that, yes, we have that bad trait as well or, conversely, that we see some trait we like and thus need to acknowledge that that trait is in us as well and can be nurtured (and that starts by acknowledging its existence).

Hi Brad--
Hope you're well. Yes, I agree that these experiences are indicative of a forward movement. I've always felt, I suppose, that blockages that can be felt, or that manifest in other ways, indicate that channels of communication are open in the being. I suspect that this indicates that life is going on at a different level, albeit an intuitive level, and not spiritual level. It seems necessary, as you point out, to differentiate between the two. You note the difference between "think[ing] ourselvers originator of goodness" and being "conduits." What I was trying to stress, I think, was that even the notion of being a conduit can be off the mark if even a fraction is being used to feed the egoic life: that it seems so natural to attribute intuitive capacities to the self, even in a covert way. Plus, at a certain level, this movement almost feels like a restless energy, and it is not conductive to the living stillness and potent presence which lies behind this play of consciousness. Yes, I suppose that these coming to the fore have brought forth the ultimate futility of the intuitive to heal the rift between self and God. This healing happens at a level where the two are not distinguishable, and one lays their life, gifts and all, at the feet of God. Surely, this must be reiterated at the end of the day and at the beginning of everything. It must be hammered into all levels, so that a firm foundation is made. I think that this must necessarily involve an gentle and quiet discipline.

Interesting note about about the Jungian shadow. I would have to mull over this; but sometimes, I will stop a normal conversation, for instance, because I feel, as an example, a father figure standing between a person. I can see, at some level, that this figure is "qualifying" much of what the person is saying, as though the words are being put into this person's mouth. At this point, I would ask this person about her father and her relationship to him and it would turn out that he is controlling, possessive etc. This is general, but one could easily become more specific. I would be able to discern certain qualities from the presence that is between us. And there is much "written" in that presence. As I noted, one could spend a lifetime studying the subtleties and configurations implicit within this presence to provide further detail of this father figure and go on to test this information.
Is this just insight/a surmise? It isn't because it is a felt experience.

If I study these closer and for a longer time, I may get a better clue. But I have to say that these presences looming over people's lives (as in the example above) feel as real as touch. They are tactile, observable and have all sorts of messages; not obscure, general and vague, but clear. If, after testing them, they prove to be true, then I attribute it to the intuitive level of being, where these things are quite real.

I also made sure that this was the case by emailing a yogin and describing these in great detail. He attributed it to the intuitive level of being and seemed to understand "the back of the head" point that I was talking about etc. Again, there is much deception in the unconscious, but I do think these things can be confirmed in various ways. If one has the right intentions then they will be able to discern a self-projection from a intuitive insight from a spiritual recognition. Without this intention, this is dangerous and murky.

PS.

My original intention was simply to express the angst in seeing that none of these flows can ultimately heal the rift between self and God. I didn't really intend to extend the conversation into these details, as I have little interest in the intuitive region of being, esoecially in becoming a healer and whatnot. It's just not something that interests me. So I hope it's ok if I sign off for a while without sounding whatever.

Thanks.

PS.

I have some new information on Deleuze which I'll try to add to the pm thread at some point.

Hi Asher, excerpted from one of your comments:

These intuitive gifts come along and offer me solace, but they don't heal me, because I am not healable. I see myself as a piece of trash at the heels of God. I don't see this is depreciation because he loves me at a level where I am real.

In the ending of this paragraph I see the most important truth for you Asher. God love you, period., no matter what level you surmise to be on. I pray you drop the rest of the paragraph and stay centered in the truth of God's love for you, unconditionally he loves you.

As far as your intuitive gifts, know this grace comes from God and is given to you in helping with spiritual discernment. The danger with intuition lies in pursuing this gift on your own or envelope yourself in pride seeing yourself as special. I do not see this in your case. After all intuition can be a powerful tool in safe guarding you with awareness of danger, helping to see with clarity in service to others, all for the glory of God. Earnestly pray to God for his guidance in discerning, and ask His help to put all in the right perspective for you.

Take care Asher. I like your contributions with your sharing, so don't stay away.

Asher, from your reading and study, I'm sure you recognize that much of what you're describing is considered "siddhis" in Hinduism, or concommitant phenomena in Christianity. As Freebird noted, they can be accepted as gifts and used in the service of love, but I also affirm your recognition of them as somehow less than the liberation you seek. It seems to me that awakening to union at that deeper level would enable you to accept and even use the psychic/metaphysical gifts in a healthy way. OTOH, writers of such stature as John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila recommended doing nothing to encourage them (although it seems Teresa had a profusion of such experiences for many years).

I suspect that this indicates that life is going on at a different level, albeit an intuitive level, and not spiritual level. It seems necessary, as you point out, to differentiate between the two.

Well, I might, without having to twist my arm too much, Asher, concede that everything is spiritual. But even a spiritual flat tire needs a spiritual repair at the gas station. More seemingly mundane or psychological solutions do not, at least as I see it, detract from, bypass, or repudiate spirituality. But I do think that sometimes we jump straight to a sort of overall �out there� nebulous spirituality, not in concert with the nitty gritty detail of our lives, but to escape this detail. But that�s understandable because god is a transcendent notion (as well as a �right here� notion, of course). But I think we often bias things toward �out there� when a little �right here� is needed as well.

You note the difference between "think[ing] ourselvers originator of goodness" and being "conduits." What I was trying to stress, I think, was that even the notion of being a conduit can be off the mark if even a fraction is being used to feed the egoic life:

I�m in NO way thinking of you, Asher, but I had to laugh at myself as I thought of how any times my ego was activated while trying to conquer the ego. All of it. Our egos, false selves, or whatever is doing it, can be quite clever. It�ll pick a goal like �get ALL of it� so that we can�t help but fail. Probably it�s not a question of dispensing with all of it as much as just bringing it into balance with some other things.

Yes, I suppose that these coming to the fore have brought forth the ultimate futility of the intuitive to heal the rift between self and God.

I think that�s a great paradigm. And the nice part is that we can, at any time, make a 100% effort at healing this right now, no matter how broken we are, no matter how much ego we think we have to conquer, if we will just (and I say these words to myself from long experience) shut up and listen, be still and pray, be quiet and observe. The attempt is enough. If you aim for perfect stillness then, indeed, it could be that ego trying to break in and stay in control. But the ego, ultimately, can�t fool you and it won�t fool a Creator.

This healing happens at a level where the two are not distinguishable, and one lays their life, gifts and all, at the feet of God. Surely, this must be reiterated at the end of the day and at the beginning of everything. It must be hammered into all levels, so that a firm foundation is made. I think that this must necessarily involve an gentle and quiet discipline.

Nicely put. My preference is not to have the words �discipline� and �god� ever in the same sentence. After all, this is LOVE we�re talking about. It should be fun and rewarding. �Discipline� is for doing stuff you don�t like to do, don�t want to do, don�t have to do, and perhaps shouldn�t do. My apologies to all parents out there trying to get their kids to mow the lawn.

Interesting note about about the Jungian shadow. I would have to mull over this; but sometimes, I will stop a normal conversation, for instance, because I feel, as an example, a father figure standing between a person. I can see, at some level, that this figure is "qualifying" much of what the person is saying, as though the words are being put into this person's mouth. At this point, I would ask this person about her father and her relationship to him and it would turn out that he is controlling, possessive etc. This is general, but one could easily become more specific.

Unless your psychic (and who knows?), I would say you are sensitive to picking up in other people what you have also experienced yourself. That�s good. That�s empathy. That�s one of the best steps in trying to understand ourselves. Other people are often the best and only mirrors we have. You�ve noted that you observe and study this reaction you have with people as well as the other person. That�s good. But the next step (or perhaps the end goal), I think, is to just take the other in stride as they exist for their own sake and to forget about trying to learn from whatever cues you are picking up. Basically that means to stop seeing others as solutions to problems (their own or yours) and to accept them as a conglomeration of parts, some good some bad. Same with ourselves. Easier said then done, I know. And I wouldn�t say to try to stop altogether from learning from others, or in trying to help them, but perhaps at least keep in my as the end goal to just take them, and yourself, as they are. This is helpful just in our personal lives and especially if we choose an activity or vocation whose specific goal is to help people.

He attributed it to the intuitive level of being and seemed to understand "the back of the head" point that I was talking about etc. Again, there is much deception in the unconscious, but I do think these things can be confirmed in various ways. If one has the right intentions then they will be able to discern a self-projection from a intuitive insight from a spiritual recognition. Without this intention, this is dangerous and murky.

Well, �intuitive� can be just another word for automatic or unconscious. I�d love to flatter both you and myself with notions of being highly intuitive (and, actually, I�m pretty sure that�s true in both cases) but �intuitive� should never be confused with �infallible�. Yes, a broken person like me surely needs some type of reliable guide to fall back on. And intuition can certainly be a great first step to sort of heading in the correct general direction, but intuition, left to its own devices, is too broad and inexact. And if I�m honest, my intuition is too often composed of stuff I want to happen. Maybe that�s just me. But I don�t really mind my intuition being wrong. Heck, a baseball players is considered good if he fails 70% of the time. I sort of have the same attitude about intuition. It�s not always right. It�s not always reliable. But boy can it cut through the clutter and present answers like almost nothing else.

So I hope it's ok if I sign off for a while without sounding whatever.

Too late! I�ve already formed yet another intuitive opinion!

Brad, philosopher, fraidy cat, your reply to Asher is very impressive. I am truly awed and humbled by your wisdom and deep insights into the nature of things, spiritual and otherwise, and everything is so diplomatic.

Now I am forced to read all of your comments #1 - 3744 continuing. There is one problem....why have you kept a secret from us....your enlightenment.

Thank you for your post. It flowed like a fountain of light (intelligence).

Your generosity shines through, Freebird. And something tells me that you will be no less generous should you find that posts 1 to 3743 are far from exemplary. But we can learn even from our mistakes. By that standard I ought to be a genius. But I am just a poor man, not yet humble, looking for love and having trouble accepting the love that has already been presented to me. Your comments, at least to my ear, present a brightness and lightness that still escapes me. Thanks for showing me what that light looks like.

I want to share a dream I had during one of many dark nights before my kundalini awakening and new birth.

I found myself walking in a forest after a rainfall. Everything smelled so fresh, new, as I took deep breaths of pure air. The ground underneath my bare feet felt moist and soft.

I was alone in a shrouded darkness until I came to a clearing. An intense bright light shone forth from a cave and I heard my name called softly. I approached the opening of the cave and as I entered I saw the sun shining with the greatest intensity, a pure white flame interwoven with the softest blue. It looked like a fire that had burned away all dross and what remained was the purest flame. I have seen at times our sun with the same blilliance and whiteness.

I was beckoned by the voice within the flame to enter, and I did. The fire felt cool and warm radiating through me. I never knew such joy, bliss and happiness being embraced by the Lord and merging with Him. Time stood still, and I have no idea as to how long I was within the living flame of the Lord, until again my name was called and I was instructed to go outside the cave and enter the pool of water that was fed by a spring. I swam naked under the pure waters and was able to breathe.

The Lord's consuming fire had purified me and washed me clean within the living waters. Praise God!. As I awoke and remembered my dream, I realized that it was no dream at all, and that the Lord had claimed me as His own.

I shared this experience with a renowned spiritual leader of a Church and he said that he only knew of one other person in his years of serving God that had this identical experience.

Hi, sorry I wasn't able to respond to these. I'm starting to see that nothing should be rejected. This is a letter to a friend of mine. I wanted to share with this board. Thanks.

Robert:

Thanks for sharing. I especially like this:

"To distinguish spiritual vs psychic is somewhat academic, because it is a matter
of defining terms. The Harry Potter books, I think, teach that ?love? is a higher
power than ?magic?. I think that is about right. Love is the where spirituality starts.
A person can be a very developed psychic, but have judgment distorted by lower emotions such as anger (as portrayed in the Star Wars films)."

As I was writing yesterday, it occured to me (and after talking to another friend) that one shouldn't resist the realm which may offer insight into psychic abilities. I think that what you write above makes it clear (and I'm really trying to understand this emotionally as well) that the two realms cannot really be distinguished (as though the mind sets up a dictotomy between spiritual vs. intuitive). I'm glad that some of these experiences are common. I honestly don't read much anymore, because I think a lot of writers seem to suggest that the intuitive is just another play of forces, and hence not important. My same problem arises with the tendency of Eastern pathways to down play the intellectual mind. And to "stop" thought, which I think is a dangerous practice.

At any rate, I'll perhaps share an experience which made the above clear yesterday. I only do so in the spirit of sharing. It is strange because many years ago I was working with a healer. She wanted to teach me distance healing and I resisted it and left her. I was baffled by the idea that one would try to impose there "healing" energy on someone without physical consent. Recently, for reasons that I couldn't divine until yesterday, I felt the need to call this woman up. I was feeling sleepy and I went upstairs lay down and again, energies flowed into me that I didn't resist, and finally people whom I know seemed to emerge around that energy and I could see much about those people's resistance so I opened myself up and the hands came close together above the chest with energy flowing between them. Finally, the energy did what it did. Then the whole thing switched and I felt Christ and angels. I understood that I was being taught something by him. In this, I felt sad that I was so estranged from him and I felt his passion. I felt that I was one of the people who crucified him at every moment and with that I became very small. And I felt after that I had understood what it meant to mourn and to be blessed by mourning. And in this, my energy became one pointed and I felt eased into the presence of Christ and angels. And deeper prayers seemed to emerge from me. And now, it seems the energy at the hara is loosened more.

I take this is some sort of lesson that certain abilities are not be resisted and that they offer keys into deeper movements. One level may not be higher than another; but perhaps all levels exist simultaneously as concentric circles. When one of them moves the others tend to move. There is something like a dialogue that goes on between the realms and this, perhaps is what integration entails. Not resting in one realm, but allowing each realm to speak to one another.

Best,

Asher

quote:

Originally posted by Freebird:
[qb] I want to share a dream I had during one of many dark nights before my kundalini awakening and new birth.

I found myself walking in a forest after a rainfall. Everything smelled so fresh, new, as I took deep breaths of pure air. The ground underneath my bare feet felt moist and soft.

I was alone in a shrouded darkness until I came to a clearing. An intense bright light shone forth from a cave and I heard my name called softly. I approached the opening of the cave and as I entered I saw the sun shining with the greatest intensity, a pure white flame interwoven with the softest blue. It looked like a fire that had burned away all dross and what remained was the purest flame. I have seen at times our sun with the same blilliance and whiteness.

I was beckoned by the voice within the flame to enter, and I did. The fire felt cool and warm radiating through me. I never knew such joy, bliss and happiness being embraced by the Lord and merging with Him. Time stood still, and I have no idea as to how long I was within the living flame of the Lord, until again my name was called and I was instructed to go outside the cave and enter the pool of water that was fed by a spring. I swam naked under the pure waters and was able to breathe.

The Lord's consuming fire had purified me and washed me clean within the living waters. Praise God!. As I awoke and remembered my dream, I realized that it was no dream at all, and that the Lord had claimed me as His own.

I shared this experience with a renowned spiritual leader of a Church and he said that he only knew of one other person in his years of serving God that had this identical experience. [/qb]

Freebird--

An intriguing experience. There is a white flame in the heart that many spiritual traditions write about. It is written in the Vedas that the psychic being exists in a white flame the shape of thumb. They also align it with the feeling of eternity and the ability that this flame has to purify dross etc. It is also descibed, I believe, as existing within "the cave of the heart" in the Upanishads.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this with you, in case it helps to see that many of these experiences are common.

I tend to describe it as a windless flame with tremendous purity and beauty. Sri Aurobindo talks about it and the first stage in his teaching is trying to bring this to the fore. Unlike New Agists, "psychic" in Aurobindo's terminology means the deeper heart centre. The core of the heart. The diamond of the heart. etc.

I'm sure that Christians have another name for it, but I think that each is unique, depending on what lens one interprets it.

Regards,
Asher


Thanks Brad, Freebird and Phil for responding to my posts! All offered valuable insights.

I love this:

"Some men sneer at the Siddhis because they do not believe in them, others because they think it is noble and spiritual to despise them. Both attitudes proceed from ignorance. It is true that to some natures the rule of omne ignotum pro magnifico holds and everything that is beyond their knowledge is readily accepted as true marvel and miracle, and of such a temper are the credulous made, it is also true that to others it is omne ignotum pro falso and they cannot forbear ridiculing as fraud or pitiable superstition everything that is outside the reach of their philosophy. This is the temper of the incredulous. But the true temper is to be neither credulous nor incredulous, but calmly and patiently to inquire. Let the inquiry be scrupulous, but also scrupulously fair on both sides. Some think it shows superior rationality, even when they inquire, to be severe, and by that they mean to seize every opportunity of disproving the phenomenon offered to their attention."


"I do not wish to argue the question of the existence or non-existence of Yogic siddhis; for it is not with me a question of debate, or of belief and disbelief, since I know by daily experience that they exist. I am concerned rather with their exact nature and utility. And here one is met by the now fashionable habit, among people presuming to be Vedantic and spiritual, of a denunciation and holy horror of the Yogic siddhis. They are, it seems, Tantric, dangerous, immoral, delusive as conjuring tricks, a stumbling block in the path of the soul's liberation. Swami Vivekananda did much to encourage this attitude by his eagerness to avoid all mention of them at the outset of his mission in order not to startle the incredulity of the Europeans. "These things are true" he said, "but let them lie hidden." And now many who have not the motives of Vivekananda, think that they can ape his spiritual greatness by imitating his limitations."

This is from Sri Aurobindo (journal entries that I've never seen until today.)

http://intyoga.online.fr/nb_1911.htm

Best,
Asher

Asher, thank you for your explanation re my dream. It is indeed interesting to find that many Eastern and Western spiritual experiences are so similar and alike.

What came to me reading your post is that the purest flame is God's love and diamond heart.

It's good to have you share your knowledge and wisdom with us.

I'll check out Sri Aurobindo's website. Blessings.

There seems to be a fair amount of Aurobindo on line. I have his commentary on the Gita, and may get around to it soon. Ken Wilbur seems to have lifted the word "Integral" from Aurobindo's Integral Yoga, BTW.

He seems to be a foremost 20th century philosopher, and as most of them have, attempts to "integrate" a bit more Darwinism into his scheme than
I would.

Since he spent many years in seclusion, he likely did pass through the Dark Night and has something reliable to transmit about this.

Thanks, I'll stay tuned...