quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb]Mary, I thought your poem was very fine! You captured many of the kinds of sentiments and perceptions people describe in Dark Nights in a very simple and direct style.

Bless you, Phil....but I bet you are speaking of the second one that was sent....the one by Barbara Dent.........

No need to shift to "accentuating the positive" on this thread, as the term, "negative," is not meant in a negative sense. It's used as a contrast with the kataphatic way, where God's presence is experienced via symbols, words, actions, etc. The shift to the apophatic way (via negativa) is often accompanied by a "drying up," as it were, of kataphatic experiences. Instead, the divine is to be found in the nothingness of waiting and longing, and eventually learning to rest in that. The "negativa" here isn't meant to be negative in the usual sense of the word, but more like "negation." All in all, it signals a very positive development in the spiritual life--a shift to a more contemplative consciousness and spirituality, although becoming acclimated to such can take quite awhile as the mind and emotions continue to search for God amidst the contents of consciousness.[/qb]

so true, the divine One is found 'in the nothingness of waiting and longing.' It seems that it is in the Dark that ones grows so much spiritually while wondering if they will survive
and is truly something I stand and sit in awe of....this shift is like a quiet earthquake, to bend a metaphor a bit. The rumblings can get so intense....but in the far background there is a 'knowing'....a knowing that this purgation is exactly what is needed.

for me, this is different from other times when the earthquaking was external and not internal.

now, where in the discussion list can one post a question regarding scripture and asking for help in interpreting such?

peace

I am not making light of that which is occuring....it is scary; causes one to question just about everything.
sometimes it is as if just barely hanging on.

Have been in solitude, silence, prayer for about a year.....and will be returning since that is His desire. me? well, I'd like to chat away forever......but I did want to read what was said regarding the Dark Night.

Ah Merton.....!!!!!

"pensees" from Thomas Merton's unpublished work _The Inner Experience._
Quoted in _Why Not be A Mystic?_ by Frank X. Tuoti. Crossroad, New
York. 1995.

"Be content to remain in loneliness and isolation, dryness and anguish
waiting upon God in darkness. Your inarticulate longing for Him in the
night of suffering will be your most eloquent prayer. But be
persuaded,
that on the contrary, God is here working to raise your intellect and
will
to the highest perfection of supernatural activity in union with His
Holy
Spirit.

Mary Teresa, it is indeed frightening to be drawn into a dark night. Our ordinary Ego self does not know how to proceed, at first, as it is accustomed to "doing something" to help us live our lives. We can learn to let go, however, and allow ourselves to be led by God. In time, we even come to prefer the equanimity of the dark nights to the previous, more "wet" emotional states of consciousness.

You can post questions about exegesis in the theology and morality forum; seems you've already discovered that one. Good for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb]Mary Teresa, it is indeed frightening to be drawn into a dark night. Our ordinary Ego self does not know how to proceed, at first, as it is accustomed to "doing something" to help us live our lives. We can learn to let go, however, and allow ourselves to be led by God. In time, we even come to prefer the equanimity of the dark nights to the previous, more "wet" emotional states of consciousness.

[/qb]

'wet' emotional states fo consciousness! how true! at times I find the dark nights more enlightening than the brightness of day, but then comes the brawls.

for several days a week, when I awake, it is a battle .....between non-virtuous thoughts and resisting them. then about 3 or 4 pm the battle ceases and inner quiet returns.

tis a strange world,k is it not?

sometimes I think I have lost my mind yet other times I think I have FINALLY found it!

the feeling of being so alone can be overwhelming......I am alone exteriorly but when that aloneness seems so interiorily prevalent it is so painful.

thanks, Phil.........

I read some articles deals with the dark nights of the soul and I have tried to compare with my experience. The difficulty is to delineate between the dark nigt of the senses and the dark night of the soul. According to John of the Cross the transformation process starts with a purification of the least spiritual element in the soul which is the senses. I don't know what this means concreatly. In this first stage (the dark night of the sense) the soul is liberated from the influence of the objects of the senses through a deprivation of the taste or the appetite for sensory perceptions of any kind.

In the next stage (the dark night of the soul) the more spiritual elements in the soul are purified. I wonder what the spiritual elements of the soul is? At this point it seems the soul needs to be purified of particular forms in general wherefore even those imaginations that, in John of the Cross� view, are supernatural should be renounced thereby gradually eliminating the soul's tenedency to think in images and forms. I relate with this.

In John of the Cross� scheme, the technique of meditation appertains to the period anterior to the night and should be replaced with the technique of contemplation once the night is entered. The value of active exercises, and in particular, the more external of these, diminishes gradually as the process proceeds. Proportionally with, the importance of of God's work in the soul during which the soul itself remains passive increases. I fully relate with this.

Generally I relate with all description of the Dark nights of the soul but I have difficulty to identify the two processes (the senses and the soul) as two distinictive process and I don't relate with his description of painful experience. Because in my case it goes smoothly.

In summation I have these questions: What is the least elements of the soul in the dark night of the senses? What is the spiritual elements of the soul in the dark night of the soul? or what is the particular symptom of the dark night of the sense and the soul?

That's been a tough question for me to answer
for mtself as well, as I seem to be one of those who goes through both nights at the same time. Just when
I feel myself to be through the night of sense, I have more struggles with the flesh, and probably will go through the 12 steps one more time to deal with that.

I know that I am at least partially into the Dark Night of the Soul because I've been in "contemplation" for about two and a half years now
and meditation is a secondary focus.

The tricky thing about this which I try to be minfdful of is Evelyn Underhill's observation from
studying alot of mystic biographies is that most believe themselves to be "there," when they have only reached a plateau.

David Hawkins' Map of Consciousness is only my latest search for answers. There is alot of good direction from Garrigou-LaGrange, Tanquerey, and Poulain as well as from people such as Arraj.

The Ten Bulls from the Zen community is a good map as well. It's probably one of the spiritual sins to be so obsessed about where I am on the scale. Forgetfulness and losing one's self through service can be a good antidote for this.

deCaussade's Self Abandonment to Divine Providence, Letters on Spiritual Direction and Ordeal of Souls are good resources for this kind of subject;

http://www.stjoanofarcbooks.com/pi/4937.html

http://www.ccel.org/d/decaussa...ndonment/htm/TOC.htm

http://www.cs.sfu.ca/people/Re...ulls/Title_Page.html

caritas,

mm <*))))><

"It's probably one of the spiritual sins to be so obsessed about where I am on the scale. Forgetfulness and losing one's self through service can be a good antidote for this."

Yes, you are right mm. Thank you for those website you recommend. To tell you the truth I don't bother where I'm in the spiritual scale. Honestly I'm very content with my spirituality. The Spirit leads me on the right track. So I have strong trust and faith to it. The Grace and Love poured from the divine is difficult to express. One can ask if that is the case why I put the above mentioned question? Why are we discussing in this forum? Is it because we have spiritual sin? No, I don't think so. I participate in this discussion forum because I see it as part of "my" spiritual growth. As I understand it when it deals with spirit there is no any doubt that it leads me on the right track. But when it comes to mind, it need explanation. Combining the knowledge gain from the spirit with the outer knowledge such like this forum is not bad to have it on the spiritual journey and I can assure you this is not spiritual sin.

"I feel myself to be through the night of sense, I have more struggles with the flesh."

Would you please elaborate what do you mean by this. It will be good if you give some examples.

One of the boogie men is the spiritual pride and feeling I have "special knowledge" and a "special experience." One antidote for that is on occasion meeting ordinary folk who are more moral and just plain nicer than I am.
Then I remember that the entire reason I got on this path to begin with is that I have been such a chronic backslider and one of the Lord's remedial cases. I'm one of those people who, if I wind up in heaven, it will be mainly from backing away from hell

Slothfulness is a large problem for me, and my rationalization has been health problems. Rigorous honesty is very important for me, as I tend to cover up and be deceitful. Perhaps I overcompensate for this by the way I let it all hang out at shalomplace. If it has offended anyone, I apologize. Sexual temptation seems to know just when I am vulnerable. I am not bad looking and alot of people may be drawn to the energy from the prayer. I have to watch myself.
Then there is the anger. I am a #9 (mediator) on the Enneagram,) and one of the most angry of the nine personality types. (We should begin a thread on the Enneagram.) Another problem is my flight from authority or fight with authority. It's good for me to keep an eye on this one. A tendency to be jealous of the gift's of others crops up now and then and I can be selfish to the point of greed with my time and money.

Seeking spiritual knowledge is not itself sinful. It depends on the motive. Am I being a spiritual piggie (oink) or do I intend to help someone with all this. Anyway, thank you

caritas,

michael


<*))))><

Almost all my spiritual knowledge stems from God directly. All of us have shortcomings. I don't apply any spiritual excercise to deal with my spiritual shortcomings. God works by itself and set fire to remove all impurities. What I do is just simply sit quietly, observe the miracle of the God and enjoy it. Making this statement is not spiritual pride. Because this is the factual realty of my experience. If I begin to boost on those mysterious things I experience and then I'm in spiritual pride.

My actual state of mind no more interested/satisified on worldly (all material satisfication and pleasure) and spiritual (worship, ritual, meditation technique, ordinary prayer etc.) things. In fact it is an impediment to the development of spiritual growth on higher level. Living in the world under this state of mind is very difficult. I begin to understand deeply and appreciate why mystics withdraw from the world.

If I am not for myself, then I am divided, but if I am for myself alone, what use am I to God? Having that mountaintop experience with all the rapture and ecstasy Saturday, I experienced the usual let down afterward, and echoing Peter's sentiment, I say, "Depart from me, for I am unclean." Then I begin to draw nearer to the Source
of Grace. I've learned that running from the Source of Holiness is childish, although natural.

Sitting as you do seems a very good practice, and I believe that you are listening to God. Ken Wilbur wrote in his book about "consciousness without an object." As a Christian, I have an object.( such Beatitude )
I do enjoy my own company and experience a strong
temptation to leave the world entirely. I do go for entire days without speaking to anyone, but occasionally I'll get some poor direction that way.

caritas,

michael


<*))))><

"As a Christian, I have an object.( such Beatitude )"

I do have Christ's and Maria's image when I'm sitting with myself. Important to note: it is not my mind who chose to meditate with their images. It is my Spirit who leads me to them. Actually it was a very surprising moment when I found out it is Christ and Maria I interacted. It may sound strange but it is how I started to communicate with them. After a while I observe my spiritual growth deepens. Do you understand me mm, my mind doesn't cling to any object but I obey strictly what God wants of me through spirit. God wants me to interact with Christ and Maria and I do it with great pleasure (not sensual of course).

"I do enjoy my own company and experience a strong
temptation to leave the world entirely."

I don't think to withdraw from the world totally is a good idea. Under the period of transformation I experience it is important to withdraw from the world temporarly. Because this transformation period is very demanding. I can witness from my experience. For example when I begin to feel the subtle part of other persons with contaminated spirit it become very disturbance for my soul. There are also other factors which disturb the soul. So, under this circumstance it is necessary to withdraw if one can't find the right atmosphere in the world. But if you enjoy your company in the world there is no any reason to withdraw. Nevertheless, if you have a desire to withdraw it will be important to find out the source of the desire.

"Love is not learned; yet it is the most important thing to learn." - John Paul II

Mystics like the Holy Father make these seemingly paradoxical statements all the time.

"He who loses his life will save it."- Jesus

Many have a deep reverence for The Master, although they may not have an orthodox Christian belief. Yogananda and his teacher quoted the bible freqently. Ghandi revered Christ and had a picture of him. Jesus made some mysterious statements. "Ye are Gods," and "he who is not against us is for us" and "I have other flocks." These cause me to wonder what it was he is getting at.

People who are outright opposed to the Christian faith I have to write off as not understanding it
or having some spiritual defect. That's easy enough, but the sincere mystics like Peace Pilgrim
or Eckhard Tolle or Miester Echhardt confuse me.
Something going on there, and I'm sure it must be God.

Jesus would give out for long periods and retire into solitude and prayer. He is the ultimate role model. Activists such as Peace Pilgrim and Ghandi
had a great deal of solitude built into their schedule, yet loved people very much. John Paul II
maintains a grueling agenda, yet I believe he prays about five hours a day. Mother Theresa and the Sisters of Charity seem to be an active order, but they are also in prayer five hours per day.

solitude leads to quiet

quiet leads to prayer

prayer leads to love

love leads to service

-Mother Theresa


caritas,

mm


<*))))><

Sorry mm, I don't understand what you want to convey in your last post.

Someone once said to me that communication does not take place unless a message is both delivered and recieved I am just in the beginning
stages of learning to communicate through print. No voice inflection or body language and what I normally rely upon to "convey" a meaning. hhmmm...

Perhaps I was thinking two thoughts at once and got them mixed together. Something about solitude vs
Apostolic ministry and the relation I have to God and to those of other flocks, who may be approaching
the same hub from differing spokes on the wheel for all I know.
Assuming Father Thomas Keating is correct in his interperetation of Saint John's teaching on the Dark Nights, freedom from cultural conditioning is the fruit of the Night of Sense. In other words, I am no loner as hung up on my perspective. In fact, I have been given a "new pair of glasses" with which to see the world.
Someone who has passed through the Dark Night of the Soul as well thinks mostly through love and humility, having passed through moral integration, struggles and temptations of various kinds, trials
watchings, waitings, vigils, and trusting in darkness to zeal, light and joy, peace and the Presence of God.
Personally, I feel that my experience Saturday was a preview of coming attractions, and that the Purgative way is something which I'll continue to pass in and out of, even while living part time on the Illuminative way, and reaching toward divine union.
Ask me again in 20 years or so

Contemplative Outreach can be an abundant resource for this kind of information. This is helping me to get focused, so I am great-full )

http://www.centeringprayer.com/OpenHeart/




caritas,

mm

<*))))><