Personally, I feel that my experience Saturday was a preview of coming attractions, and that the Purgative way is something which I'll continue to pass in and out of.

It seems something important has happened for you on Saturday. Can you share your expereince?

A plateau and a strong feeling that this state could be maintained for days at a time if need be.
Living Flame of Love... Song of Solomon type Love

Love under the blue moon

Love which not would end soon,

God's countenance and His face,

Forgiveness and redemptive grace,

Nothing could ever take the place,

of that which made my heart to race!

my heart that panted after thee,

with wordless glow knew it was free!


badpoetry.com

mm

<*))))><

It is a great experience and I relate with it. When I communicate with God I experience a mixture of purification and Grace at the same time. The Grace and love of God nurture my soul and the purification process leave a great impact on my physical body. I don't know if this is yours experience as well.

(Still catching up, but I've read though this very rich exchange.)

Michael asked: In summation I have these questions: What is the least elements of the soul in the dark night of the senses? What is the spiritual elements of the soul in the dark night of the soul? or what is the particular symptom of the dark night of the sense and the soul?

I've been working with people in spiritual direction for almost 20 years and have yet to journey with anyone who's gone through the kind of distinct stages mentioned by St. John and elaborated on by Fr. Keating. The general movement seems to be a deepening and simplification of prayer, accompanied by inner healing/unloading of emotional pain. Attitudes and lifestyle must change as well, to accommodate the emerging contemplative consciousness. For each person, this is such a unique experience that it's hard for me to generalize much more than I have above. Some will give evidence of parts of St. John's nights while others will show different symptoms.

Does this help? Follow-up questions welcomed.

Welcome back Phil, actually it was me who asked the above questions. The reason was that I have difficulty to relate with the description of Saint John of the Cross strictily. The night of senses and souls seems sometimes overlap. Furthermore I don't experience the pain associated with the dark night.

God arranged for a philosophy professor to be in my life for the last four years. His quest for the historical Jesus, as well as the Christ of faith, has taken him down alot of different roads.
I'm from a very conservative religious backround, and he seems to know about every liberal scholar I have ever heard of. (He even has lunch with them.)

I just spent a year and a half considering and debating these views with liberal Christians and agnostics, and nearly lost my faith at several points. This for me has been real Dark Night stuff.

My deepest issues seem to revolve around fears of intimacy/commitment and fears of abandonment. The farther I travel in my healing, the more these core fears are getting addressed. My lifetime of neurosis is being progressively brought to the surface and healed. "Third Chakra" issues relating
to power and control and authority are being addressed by the Spirit. These things are deeply entrenched in my "personality" and have run me all my life. I am blessed I'm also scared

I agree with Phil that it seems to be a continuum with alot of backing up and moving forward across the stages or stairsteps or ladders
which are used as analogues the journey.

caritas,

mm

<*))))><

I usually call my current state transformative period. This includes unloading of many hidden staff in our unconsciousness. The purification process is facilitated by Kundalini to cleanse those unknown dirty staff and make the soul sharp and alert. What I have seen from my experience is there are two types of attachment. The first is to not be attached to any organisation, ideology and dogma. This can lead to contemplation where one communicates with God without image and forms. Entering to this process is not always pleasant. Saint John of the Cross illustrated this process as the Dark Night of The Soul. Once God captures the soul, he begins to reform it, to reshape it and prepare the soul to reflect his pure face. It is this process, which I call transformative, or purification process. Under this process all our unconscious feelings and emotions surfaced and dispersed. What remains after a while is knowledgeable and modified soul.

As I mentioned earlier to not be attached to any idea even to the idea of God is good for once truly spiritual advancement, but this is not enough. There is another type of attachment, which is subtler than the first one. I experienced the subtler part of attachment as the most difficult to deal with because of its invisible nature to our senses. I don't think it is possible to review the subtler part of the attachment without the Grace of God.

In my life I have never been attached to any idea, organisation and dogma. This leads me to the experience I had in 1998. After awhile I entered to the state of contemplation where God freely act. I didn't resist his movement I simply cooperated with him. This again leads me to experience I had in May this year. Relatively my soul is more knowledgeable than ever and by the help of the grace of God I can clearly see how this subtle attachment is loosely attached to my soul. Seeing this truth means the end of attachment in its subtler form. I just simply smile when I saw it fall down.

Many do pursue the free form type of mysticism nowadays. It seems all the rage, quite trendy and fashionable. Very postmodern, very hip, slick and cool Had a bit of a falling out with them over my immature, old fashioned, feeble dependency on the crutch, that lame old analogue for the internal process, that trite cliche of our forefathers and mothers ---- The Person of Christ

I agree that the dark nights remove and alter the conception(s) of this Christ which no longer serve the Spirit's facilitation of this, the Father's gift, and the gift of the Bride to the Bridegroom, as promised to both parties. I suppose I see my particular path as the Bridal Mysticism of the Cistercians, Carmelites and Victorines of old.

Perhaps, after I attain more non-dual states and less attachment to tradition, this will
all appear differently to me, and as Merton said the idealized version of myself as Higher Power will be thrown over in favor of the Reality. Still, I would not accept a spiritual counterfeit even if an archangel were to appear to me.

My goal is to be a son of the Most High, and not to take His place. Dependency as a child ends about the time the Wedding takes place.

Most mystics whose lives I admire took solemn vows in an order, and did not seek escape.
This generation (myself included) seems to me to want all the gifts without the commitment to lose
their life in order to find it.

Perhaps I am going a little overboard on this, and maybe I need to lighten up I reserve the right to be very wrong about all this, but as for the moment that is my story and I'll stick to it


caritas & veritas,


mm <*))))><

mm, I want to assure that I'm very far away from the trend of post-modernism. You mentioned that many people do pursue the free form type of mysticism nowadays. To the contrary mysticism is not only my interest but it is part of my life. When I said that entering into the compelative life opens the gate widely to communicate God without forms and images is in line with the mystics of Christianity. This doesn't necessarly imply that I'm againist traditional way of worshipping God. I have just simply stated my own experience. If you don't relate to my experience that doesn't mean my experience is againist yours. It is more likely that we do have different experience. When we communicte it is better to stick to the issue rather than associated it with some other theories and assumptions. I like to communicate the issue of spirituality based upon gained experience. At the same time we can compare and analyse other experiences but that is not the primary issue for me. I believe excessive focus on theories and philosophies can harm the originality and the authenticity of once own experience if it is not understood in context.

You pointed out "Still, I would not accept a spiritual counterfeit even if an archangel were to appear to me."

I don't understand what your aim is with this statement. Do you observe spiritual counterfeit at this forum?

Spiritual counterfeits, ROFL Without a doubt I am the biggest fraud of all. I just met a fellow who said it was difficult being a used car salesman and a mystic. I used to be a telemarketer
Being misunderstood is central to the mystic experience. Those Franciscan inquisitors who hauled
Meister Eckhart up on heresy charges probably had little experience with the mental states or love which he was indwelt with. His defense was simple.
He said that if I am a heretic intellectually, then point out where I am wrong, but not in my heart and will. Still, he was eventually excommunicated by the Holy See about a year after his passing. Perhaps the heresy charges were his Dark Night experience.
Hildegarde von Bingen is another puzzler, along with Julian of Norwich. William Johnston says that these would become very important mystics in the 21st century.
My Dark Night deals with having my orthodoxy tested. I thought I had a much stronger case for the faith than I really did. Very strong arguments from some of the skeptics. The main reasons that I cling to it, along with my last post in the "why christianity," is that it somehow makes sense of everything else. Human history seems to have an origin and purpose which is a wonderful analgesic for temporary relief of minor existential pain.

Back to the Dark Night. I am very grateful to learn from you, as obviously you have a sensitivity, intelligence and education which I can only aspire to. When I attend twelve step groups, it's against the rules and considered bad form to even discuss theology. Although it took a great deal of getting used to, it helps everyone to focus on what they are actually doing with the spiritual principles and their daily experience.

The Dark Night seems to be a stripping away of everything that is not-god, so that the vessel is prepared for the light and energy which is destined to take up residence within. I remarked to someone the other day that it very often feels as though my bones are being pulled out through my skin. Very excruciating, but I believe my RESISTANCE to the experience has as much or more to do with this than the Divine action.

Thank you very much and your counsel is appreciated. I might have gone around the bend without people to support me through this. Also, I was rather disappointed with someone when I posted this morning, which had nothing to do with you, but may have colored my post. I apologize if my tone was a tad bit confrontational.

caritas,


mm <*))))><

mm, all those mystics you mentioned in your posts are great men. I'm glad that you have interest and knowledge in them. I'm sure I will learn more about them from you and it will be very nice if you open a new thread on the topic of mystics.

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalmichael9:
[QB] God arranged for a philosophy professor to be in my life for the last four years. His quest for the historical Jesus, as well as the Christ of faith, has taken him down alot of different roads.
I'm from a very conservative religious backround, and he seems to know about every liberal scholar I have ever heard of. (He even has lunch with them.)

Michael, I've been meaning to respond to this one, as I'm aware of how this "historical Jesus" quest has led some to question the very creeds themselves. I've just finished reading a book passed along to me by Johnboy, "The Real Jesus," by Luke Timothy Johnson. Superb! He exposes the assumptions of the historical Jesus quest, especially in relation to the faith. The bottom line, here, is that the Christ in whom the Church believes and with whom we relate is not the historical Jesus, but the risen Christ. The risen Christ IS the same person as the historical Jesus, but an accurate knowledge of the historical Jesus is not a pre-requisite for encountering the risen Christ (just as a precise knowledge of my wife's growing years is not necessary for me to know her now). The Christ to whom Scripture wishes to introduce us is the risen Christ. Sometimes these liberal, historical Jesus-seekers discount Scripture itself as a source of info. about the historical Jesus because they recognize its explicit orientation to the life of faith. There is much about the historical Jesus in Scripture, to be sure, but that's not the point.

Jim Arraj also does a nice job reviewing the literature on this topic and contrasting historical Jesus vs. Christ of faith. Click here to read Arraj's essay.

Perhaps a continuance of this discussion on the historical Jesus could go on this thread. I do understand how it could contribute to a Dark Night struggle, however.

I would like to say some words how John of the Cross (JOC) describe the integration process through Dark night of the soul. I will start how JOC describe the human inner structure. My information is solely based upon the work of Father Wilfrid. Fr. Wifrid is a Carmelite monk and author of dozen books on mystics, prayer and other spiritual books. He is recognized as expert on the works of JOC and Theresa of Avila. Fr. Wifrid is the founder of Carmelite monastery in Sweden in 1967. All of his books are in Swedish so I will try to summarize this section of his book in english.

The structure of the soul according to JOC is divided in three different parts, namely the outer, the inner and the center. He called the outer part "el sentido" or the senses. This part is consisted of physical body, emotion, suffering or passion (joy, hope, sorrow and fear). Everything on this structure is depended upon the knowledge stemmed from the senses.

The second structure is the inner. This structure is called spirit. This is the place where love and will seats. Mind belongs to this structure as long as it is independent of the senses. The knowledge gained by this mind called spiritual wisdom, intitive or higher knowledge.

The third structure is called the center of the soul. This is the place where humanbeings image of God seats. Here is the place where the Trinity live no matter we live in sin or not. According to Fr. Wifrid the mystics usually emphasise Devil has no acess to this place. That means in every humabeing there is uncorrupted and holy place where it is unaffeted by original sin. Fr. Wifrid say "Humanbeings are not ruined by original sin, they are only injured by it". Because of this injury humanbeings can not live on the basis of his/her central point.

When these three different structures begin to live in their own structure seperately (instead of living in harmony) imbalance created. Those two dark nights (dark night of the sense and dark night of the spirit)are meant to restructure the imbalance created in the structure of humanbeings. In other words Dark night of Soul is the integration process aiming to create balance among those three structures.

Thanks for sharing this perspective, Grace. Very helpful way of seeing the good accomplished by the Dark Nights.

I don't pretend to understand much of what is said above; all I can say is that I have recently been experiencing the most odd and disconcerting sensations. I consider them parts of some sort of purification process. When I call on Christ and the Blessed Mother, I experience a much deeper level. It is like these energies, (they come in from above the head), have an agenda to make ones mind "relocate" so that they are praying for others who are at a distance. These people confirm that they are experiencing energies. There was also the ability to move (whether it be imaginary or not, but I have never intended to try to astral travel) to other places and absorb something of those places. After I go, to India for instance, in this subtle/imaginary? state, I return; go downstairs, walk outside, and I actually feel like I am walking, in part, in India. I can see people as part Gods, sometimes, like they are from other worlds and see many things in people
s bodies; lights and flows etc. I suppose this is partly connected to the memory and the imagination, but I have never experienced a place so vividly without being there. And could gain an ability, I suppose, to "channel" the energies of these places. At any rate, these are a few examples of things that seem to pour into me at these intervening levels. But after experiencing something of a peace last night, when I called on Christ and Mary, the awareness moved behind these experiences; and I believe that the body became rebalanced. There are a few more experiences/capacities like this. Here's an interesting one: there are sounds above the head, which are points of light; there is something like a point in the back of the head which can move around in the body, and awaken a blissful sensation in parts of the body (this I have hardly understood.) I have come to see that the spiritual is very hard to discern when these levels are overlapping it; however, one can use these abilities (for instance, I saw Mary last night praying for me); but the deep sense of my own inability to love anything but myself.

I feel sick and full of myself and useless to other people. One cannot go on in this state. Even if there is the possibility of praying for others at a distance, there is a subtle sense that "I have done this" or it is benefiting me. I feel sick. Alone. And useless to others and to myself.

These intuitive gifts come along and offer me solace, but they don't heal me, because I am not healable. I see myself as a piece of trash at the heels of God. I don't think that this is self depreciatation because he loves me at a level where I am real.

So to summarize: I believe part of this journey (and I won't label it "Dark Night") involves the awakening of intuitive and rational parts of the human being. These capacities can cause a whole lot of abilities that can be developed. But they will not ultimately heal ones separation to God. At the same time, these abilities are used by God, to mediate supernatural experiences. It is not the experience, or the image that is important, as it is the effects it has on ones own life in relation to others.

The spiritual, it turned out, is much deeper than these intuitive levels. It cannot be understood; it can barely be felt. It is what is left when I release my grasp on self and all its abilities, powers, gifts and transfer my dependence on God. It is in this state that ones brokeness is acceptable to God, and She shows me a deeper level beyond these powers. Then I am shown the path to further healing.