Hi John. The you Jesus is referring to in the passages you quote is the Church, or Christian community, which as a whole embodies the charisms awakened by the Holy Spirit. We can indeed know and grow much in the Holy Spirit; I'm not sure why you contrast this with a point about only Jesus being able to do all sorts of things, which is not something I would hold to. Individuals and communities can indeed bear much fruit in the Spirit.

I'm not sure if your post was relating to our earlier discussion about the immortality of the body; the gift of the Holy Spirit doesn't confer this, except insofar as it relates to the eventual resurrection. So in the meantime, we live until we die, guided by the Spirit, our souls transformed to know God as Christ knows God. The physical body benefits from this, to be sure, but it eventually dies. No exception to this rule, as far as I know.

John, how do you and T. T. Bodhisattva understand/practice a connection between yoga science and Jesus? (thread topic) Do you continue to practice yoga? If so, how does this relate to your growth in Christ? These are the kinds of questions that are at the heart of interreligious dialogue, and I hope you will share something of your experience on this. If you'd rather not, that's OK.

If I look at what Jesus taught through the "yogic lens", I see that these teachings are based on the same fundmental science/knowledge as yoga. The word yoga means union (with God) and the experience of that union is called samadhi. The word samadhi in yoga means becoming one with the object of meditation and if you continue this long enough, you will transform into likeness of your object of meditation. The core of the teachings of Jesus is union with God through Him. From this I could conclude that if I meditate on the appearance of Jesus, I will experience samadhi with Him and eventually transform into His likeness.

My meditation practice is based on this idea. When I meditate, I visualize the Body of Christ becoming my body and I see/feel wearing His Crown of thorns (golden in color),while feeling the hands and feet (wounds of Christ). Then I concentrate on loving the presence of God inside me. This meditation seems to catalyze my growth in Christ.

Ofcourse the core of the process that this meditation activates is driven by Grace. I'm not transformed because I do something specific, but because I love God and want to be in union with God. The certain visualizations just gives a form to my desire. This is why I sometimes alternate between different visualizations, but my focus is always on Jesus and feeling the God's presence.

That makes sense to me, T. T. Bodhisattva. The kind of meditation you describe is similar to what St. Ignatius of Loyola called imaginative contemplation. He recommended reading the bible and imagining oneself interacting with Jesus in the various texts. A graced dynamic can enter in, where one feels touched by Christ through the meditation.

What role does learning his teaching and the teaching of the Church play, here? That would be more along the lines of a jnana yoga approach, which has been primary for me. But that's where one finds answers to the kinds of questions John was asking, and sees the relevance to practice and everyday life.

[quoe]Eyes on God and not on man. We've all done enough work around here to avoid any superstar competition of the mystic egos and all that.[/quote "Mystic Egos" is an oxymoron

If you go out there into the world of evangelistic "yoga folks", that are seeking followers to their path, you are going to find them quoting the Christian (our) Bible as proof that their path is truth. The question then becomes how do you quote our Bible in their terms/language so that people have a choice between the "yogi folk" path and Jesus?

Christians by tradition have a tendency to say, "If you don't believe exactly like we do that you are going to "some place unpleasent" and burn there forever." No wiggle room. And for the most part even Christians believe themselves above other Christians because of "exactly like we do". And historically speaking, and even the Apostles had a lot of problems with this, if you allow others who do not believe like you do into your place of worship these others create turbulance. And things fragment. So from an historical perspective you have to admit that they have a point about no wiggle room.

Ok now what Michael? What is my point ? Oh yes I remember now! I don't want to talk to Christians, I want to talk to yogis. I think that all Christians are already saved, if they don't wounder into "yoga"

Michael you and everybody are loved also! John

Tuomas please. "What is Jnana Yoga the short version." He knows more about this stuff than I do .

Phil I do ramble don't I I approach things from different angles to get a depth of understanding of the other person's perspective (and maybe hunting "wiggle room" one knows not about this).

The question of "on topic" keeps coming up and rightly so.

Yoga Science and Jesus: Yoga science is any set pattern path that results in one becoming "Yoked to God". India has a bunch of them, China has the Tao and its versions, and apparently the Rieki folk have one that is a mix of India and China, and the Jewish "Kabala" is one also.

(My origional intent as a topic subject): Did Jesus have a set pattern path to becoming "Yoked to God"? and "if" He did, what was it and why would it, if it exists, be better than all of the rest, "if" a person was inclined to feel drawn to the concept of "Yoga Science" as defined above?

Now the "operative" word here is the "rest". They want "Yoked to God", Jesus has "Yoked to God". They want miracles, Jesus has miracles. They want a set pattern path, Jesus has a set pattern path. And so forth. When the Christans went into northern Europe to bring the Salvation of Jesus to the "Pagan's", they incorporated some of the pagans stuff into the concept of Christanity and The Catholic Church was born. When the Christian Jews took the Salvation of Jesus to the Gentiles they incoporated some of the Gentile's stuff into Christianity (Peter had his hands full with that one when Paul came along as a disciple of Christ) and non Jewish Christianity was born.

So Phil let me ask you this: "What are the minimum requirements necessary to bring a person under the Salvation of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ, with no wiggle room?" Love, John

John here's a describtion of jnana yoga.

"JNANA MEANS WISDOM or knowledge in Sanskrit. Jnana Yoga is a technique for seeking liberation in which identification with the real Self (rather than with the body or ego) is developed by a steady effort to discern or discriminate between pure awareness and the objects of awareness.

Jnana Yoga is closely associated with Advaita Vedanta. Vedanta is one of the six darshans or philosophies of Hinduism, and Advaita Vedanta is the school of thought within Vedanta which believes that everything in the universe shares a single soul, including you, me, and God."

John, you're working me waay too hard.

Let me reply to a couple of points and see how it goes.

You wrote: Did Jesus have a set pattern path to becoming "Yoked to God"? and "if" He did, what was it and why would it, if it exists, be better than all of the rest, "if" a person was inclined to feel drawn to the concept of "Yoga Science" as defined above?

In Christian understanding, Jesus didn't have to do anything to become yoked with God as he was in possession of the divine nature just as surely as he was his human nature. So there was no particular practice for Jesus to do, other than maintain the intrinsic harmony between his human and divine natures. That's presumably why he prayed, or did other spiritual works. In that sense, then, Jesus truly is different from us; we do not possess the divine nature as intrinsic to our personhood the way he did, nor are we free from the consequences of sin as he was.

When the Christans went into northern Europe to bring the Salvation of Jesus to the "Pagan's", they incorporated some of the pagans stuff into the concept of Christanity and The Catholic Church was born. When the Christian Jews took the Salvation of Jesus to the Gentiles they incoporated some of the Gentile's stuff into Christianity (Peter had his hands full with that one when Paul came along as a disciple of Christ) and non Jewish Christianity was born.

What are you referring to as "pagan stuff?" There was an adaptation of the method of teaching to speak to the people of different cultures, but the message itself was not altered. Also, the "Catholic Church" was around from the beginning, and is usually considered the branch of Christianity that emerged from the apostolic witnesses and continued through their successors, the bishops. It assumed a more overt, institutional form after the Council of Nicea in the early 4th Century, but even then, there was no accommodation to pagan beliefs.

So Phil let me ask you this: "What are the minimum requirements necessary to bring a person under the Salvation of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ, with no wiggle room?"

Minumum? I suppose that would be that one would not be living in a state of mortal sin (a state of total rejection of God). Other than that, it would seem that one would be connected with Christ somehow, even unknowingly, and would be benefiting from the salvation he won for the human race.

Hope this all helps somehow.

T.T. Bodhisattva, when I think of Jnana yoga and its practice in a Christian context, I mean to say that it is focused on discerning truth from falsehood, and thus leads one to realize Jesus promise that we shall "know the truth, and the truth will set us free." (Jn. 8:32) In another place, Jesus teaches that he himself is "the way, the truth and the life." (Jn. 4: 16). And so the the practice I have embraced is centered on Christ as truth, and of detaching from that which is false. This entails prayer, meditaiton and study to know Jesus and his truth while noticing what is false in oneself, one's thinking, the culture, etc. I realize this might not equivocate very well with the yogic practice of jnana yoga, but it's the branch that I most closely identify with, which is why I referred to it. In the end, it does seem to lead one to an advaitan types of experience, but even this is known in terms of Christ.

Enjoying the exchanges, gents. Thanks.

Phil I see why the Holy Spirit brought me here for training. And thank you for the advice that I am working "Waay" to hard shifting gears is going to require some rebooting of my concept of things.

Now Phil correct me if I am wrong: In my reality I feel that you are limiting the potential of the possible Christian experience. And in your reality you feel that I am leading people into a sadly disappointing Christian experience, because I am misinterpreting the truth of Scripture.

Your reality is based on two thousand years of history and personal experience and exploration, and my reality is based on smoke and mirrors probably caused by (we will give me the benefit of the doubt about my motivation) trying to correlate two things that were never ment to be correlated.

Phil I can't debate your logic, which you already know a great modern day philosopher once said (and I don't remember his name) Don't discuss philosophy with me until you have read what I have written. I don't have anymoney to buy books, can you recommend a place where I can go on the internet to read some of the things that you have written? Love, John

Now Phil correct me if I am wrong: In my reality I feel that you are limiting the potential of the possible Christian experience.

I'm not sure what I said that lead you to think that, John. How am I limiting the potential of the possible Christian experience?

And in your reality you feel that I am leading people into a sadly disappointing Christian experience, because I am misinterpreting the truth of Scripture.

I wouldn't put it that way. I think you are honestly sharing your understanding of Scripture, which is fine. It's also important to try to understand what the author of the text was actually intending to say so we don't simply read into the texts our own projections and assumptions.

. . .can you recommend a place where I can go on the internet to read some of the things that you have written?

http://shalomplace.com/psrbks.html

Where exactly is the slippery slope that leads away from Christian orthodoxy? I confess to getting a little lost at times and usually another brother or sister pulls me back. This book caused quite a stir back in 1675, and eventually was rejected by both mystics and non-mystics as an error:

http://www.passtheword.org/Mol...spiritualguide-a.htm

Are we venturing into Quietism here?

Thanks for the discussion and the spirit of love.

cariitas,

mm <*)))))><

Where exactly is the slippery slope that leads away from Christian orthodoxy?

I'm not sure, Michael . . . it can happen in all sorts of ways. The Molinos book is a good example of how something can seem to be pretty much OK, but then turns out to be something else. There is a connection between orthodoxy and orthopraxis, but it's sometimes difficult to see how these play out in the long run. I know that all might sound kind of nit-picky or even limiting in some ways, but the issue with Molinos was that the practice he recommended brought about some serious psychological turmoil, and led away from the experience of a loving God that Christianity invites. Equating thought-less-ness with contemplation was his main error -- a topic we touched upon as well in the thread on evaluating centering prayer. Still, it's easy to see how he got there, and how easy it would be to make that kind of mistake. We don't want ecclesiastical "thought police" looking over our shoulders during times of prayer and meditation, for sure, but when one starts a movement and writes profusely as Molinos did, it's going to be watched carefully to see where it leads. That's understandable, too.

quote:

Now Phil correct me if I am wrong: In my reality I feel that you are limiting the potential of the possible Christian experience.

I'm not sure what I said that lead you to think that, John. How am I limiting the potential of the possible Christian experience?

Ok You are a functional representative of God's Word in this world. And this in the middle of alot of really misinformation. Phil you are an island of sanity. The problem of being an island of sanity is that folks come out of nowhere to challenge you you already know this. In the last three and over one half years of wandering the internet, I have incountered alot of folks that have stated reasons why I am wrong and or mistaken and or just plain insane. I have been to yoga messageboards, witchcraft message boards, mystic messageboards (remember that one Michael), Spiritualality messageboards, and some Christian messageboards, and a bunch of other variations of the above. The common theme was that I was not recieved well. It has been a humbling experience. Phil there are thousands of people out there with an "absolutely has to be delivered message", on the internet, to Mankind!, I have met them

So what is my point? Phil you are a city on a migratory path. You are stability in the middle of an internet full of creative chaos. I respect what you are doing and I understand your challenge. Phil you have welcomed me to "Peaseful Discussion Message Board", thank you for allowing me to be a part of creative chaos and still be apart of stability. I really want to fellowship with fellow Christions, in spite of myself. So I am greatfull and humbled by your wecome to hang out and interact with you and everybody here Love, John

Laughing in the spirit with joyous delight. You guys really send me. Caveyogi, begin to worry when all men speak well of you and they don't think you're nuts. I'm getting goosebumps! I feel the same way about Doctor Phil. (Not the one on tv, never seen that show yet) As Yoda might say, "Reached me too late. pop-psyche has!"

Perhaps someday Meister Eckhardt will make sense to me. Perhaps I'll reach what Kohlberg calls post-conventional morality.

Still a grasshopper...

Caveyogi, may your tribe increase!

Rebooting.....

Yoga Science and Jesus

There are three systems for achieving "Physical Immortality". I am an advanced student of all three.

The origional "Siddha" system, through Shiva.
The "Fae" system through the Goddess of Life (The origional "pagan" before the Druids).
And the Christian system through the Body of Christ and God the Father's Holy Spirit.

All three "systems" require that you be occupied by the "Living Body of God/Goddess", The "Living Spirit of God/Goddess", that your heart center be in a state of continuous "Unconditional Love", and that one's mind, body' and spirit go through the "transformation".

Phil can MysticalMichael and I (and anybody else who my wish to) kick this concept around as a curiosity. The transformation part is somewhat related to unpleasent Kundalini experiences. Love, John

John, make yourself at home. Katy has had an interest in this topic as well, so you might send her a private message to invite her in. Maybe start another thread on the topic of "physical immortality," if you'd like. You can continue with this one as well, if you'd prefer.

I won't be contributing much as I don't really see an equivocation between Christian resurrection of the body and the other systems you mention.

Y'all have fun!