acaveyogi,

You are self taught through years of practice. I just read the books and have a long history of mental, emotional, spirutual and physical maladies
to recommend me. Keep talking...please!

Don't worry about Phil. He is the only person I've met who scored 100% Catholic on beliefnet's survey. That might make him seem just a tad bit eccentric!

caritas,

mm <*))))><

Michael you are way too much fun ! I liked you in the old days and I like you now! All you need is somebody to keep you on your toes. I know what you are doing you are reading all that stuff that everybody else did so that you don't have to do it ! So then along comes me and says that you have to go do it, reading about it just ain't going to cut it. Don't we just hate that when that happens ?

The thing is I value Phil's and everybody's input. I am not know all, see all, and have total thought. I act like it but I am not . But I do have a pretty good attachment to the "Intuitive Mind" and "Happyness is a good question". And the gift of true conversation is understanding the other person's language. And when two or more people understand how each other thinks, then "dialog" (everytime is use my speller Michael I think of you and probably will for the rest of my life ) can be created.

Personally I think that Phil is right about true immortality and personally I think that if you are a Christian and love Jesus that it will all get sorted out somewhere. But in the mean time here is what we are up against: Christianity is loosing ground guys and the question is, "Why?"

When I was in my early twenties I saw Christians moving to "Yoga Stuff" to find God. So I said to Jesus, "You are The Master, please teach me "Yoga Stuff"." I wanted to be a yogi for Jesus. Thirty two years later here I am and I know about yogi stuff and about a bunch of some other stuff, but the world has changed . Everything is fragmenting. Christians are fragmenting, yoga is fragmenting, science is fragmenting, society is fragmenting. Everything is fragmenting.

Michael you go out to study written wisdom and if you study it enough you come to the conclusion that nobody agrees on anything. So that brings us back to, forget about what is outside the temple. It is what is inside the temple that is real. You can not look into the Face of God and live. This is because God is outside of you. When God is inside of you, you can not look at His Face because He is looking out through yours. Fragmentation ceases. Love, John

caveyogi and others, the only real concern I have about people trying to cultivate an "immortal" physical body is that they could easily get caught up in a massive delusion. Not one single Christian saint or mystic has attained this, nor is there more than anecdotal information from other religions. Indeed, both Buddhism and Christianity encourage reflection on the reality of death/mortality as a gateway to wisdom. Death teaches us to value the time we have, and to recognize the transient nature of life. When I consider people doing metaphysical gymnastics to try to squeeze a few more years out, or, worse, to try to make their physical bodies immortal, I think they've got their focus in the wrong place. It might even be that they are into self-sufficiency and control in insidious ways, convinced that they are into spirituality, instead.

I resonate with your viewpoints overall, caveyogi. It sounds like you've been around the block a few times and have learned some good lessons about the Christian mysteries. I could quibble about heaven being part of creation and a few other things, but I don't sense that you're wanting feedback about that.

You do ask why Christianity is losing ground. I'm not sure it is, numerically, that is. In terms of its values informing society, that's a tougher one, as even the values that many secularists deem to be "self-evident" ultimately derive from Judeo-Christian sources.

caveyogi,

"I say old freind or new freind, not much difference, we are all the same, we are all human beings." -Dalai Lama

We're just picking up the conversation where we left off. I have many relationships like that.

An interesting observation from all traditions is that sometimes mystics know when they are about to go, or "drop their body" or whatever, and seem to choose the moment themselves. David Hawkins says that many "go home" when they reach calibration
600, or enlightenment, when they no longer identify with their body. I wonder if this happened to Anthony DeMello. I can only speculate,
but he might well have reached that point. When someone gets into the high 500s or the 600s, they tend to live apart from others. Caveyogis?

Phil takes my ribbing in good spirits. By all means keep it Catholic, as I am only part way into the mine and finding rich veins of ore, from your own wonderful self and many others. It is such a rich tradition! Ask Doctor Phil: if he don't know
he know who do!

John,

Here is the link to the belief-o-matic:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

I scored 100% Bahai the last time, so I may have become so open minded that my brain leaked out, perhaps out my ear whilst I slept.

85% Conservative Protestant
85% Liberal Protestant
75% Roman Catholic

I'll trade you a Billy Graham card for a John Paul II or a Ramana Maharshi! Better call the patent office, I just had a capital idea, mystic trading cards!

Buddhism has a concept of Rainbow Body (Light Body), a phenomenon in which the corpses of highly developed spiritual individuals reputedly vanish within days of death. Personally I believe that this phenomenon is the same thing what happens when physical immortality (extremely extended life span) is achieved. There are cases where people have witnessed this phenomenon.

David Steindl-Rast, a Benedictine monk has done some investigation on the subject of Rainbow Body. Here's an interesting article about it.

http://www.snowlionpub.com/pages/N59_9.php

Yes, that article was referenced here sometime back in another thread. Our own beloved w.c. had some good reflection on it.
- Click here

quote:

caveyogi and others, the only real concern I have about people trying to cultivate an "immortal" physical body is that they could easily get caught up in a massive delusion.

Matthew 16:19, "For whoever wishes to save his life shall loose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it." It is a "Catch 22" an extended life span is a side effect, not a goal! And in Matthew 16:28 Jesus goes on to say, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man comming in His Kingdom." Some of those people are still here, they are just being quiet about it.

When I was first stepped into oneness with God by Babaji I went to a Kriya Yoga message board to share the news with them. They told me that if that was true, then I was physically immortal, if what I said was true. I had no idea that that was part of what happens, I just wanted to be at one with God.

Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Phil, other than that I have no idea what is going on, Ok?

quote:

I could quibble about heaven being part of creation and a few other things, but I don't sense that you're wanting feedback about that.

Phil you know about the Christian mysteries, I don't. If there is a correlation between my experience as a Christian mystic and the Christian mysteries, this makes me happy. And I want "Feedback" on everything. Other wise how can I learn? And you are a teacher. Love, John

Mystic trading cards you might be on to something there Michael! I think your main problem is going to be copyrights. I think that everything that everybody has said is copyrighted. Hey Michael I am the only free mystic that you have got nothing that I have ever written is really copywrited! But then at the same time most folks would consider my mystical writing "Really Left Field", if even in the ball park which is ok I don't mind, I am not really real until I am real.

In the meantime I have to live with a "cursed spiller", And I am extremely handycapped with out my Franklin Spelling Ace (fully charged). It is funny Micheal how you hit upon one of my worst fears, "No speller". Love, John

caveyogi, the "heavens" Genesis speaks of would be the sky. There was no teaching about heaven in the way we understand it at that time. For most Jews until around the 3rd C. B.C., when you died that was it. Something like a shadow of who you were descended to Sheol, which is similar to our understanding of Hell, but without the demons and suffering.

The Christian "heaven" is a realm of being opened to the human race (and by extension, all creation) through Christ's suffering, death and resurrection. This might sound like a created "place," but it's more a sharing in God's life. Hence, heaven and "eternal life" (uncreated life) are spoken of in the New Testament and Christian theology.

quote:

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man comming in His Kingdom." Some of those people are still here, they are just being quiet about it.

I sincerely doubt it. There are a couple of interpretations that might be helpful, here. One is that the early Church thought Jesus would come very soon; another is that he was referring to the resurrection. Either way, it doesn't follow that Jesus was implying that some people would live for centuries until his glorious second coming. He's very clear in other passages that the seed of the body has to fall to the ground and die before it sprouts to eternal life (see Jn. 12: 24).

The resurrected life brought by Jesus is not simply an extension of human life, nor does it seem to be another kind of "rainbow body" experience. It's a whole new relationship between matter and spirit -- something of an inversion of the present situation, only suffused with the Spirit of God.

John 12:24, "Truly truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."

Phil based on my experience as a Christian mystic, it is the "death of self" that brings us into "much fruit".

The "Dark Night of the Soul" stuff. Incouraging others to worship "constantly" in the temple is going to bring about death before much fruit. Psalms 23, "Though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death, I fear no evil; for Thou art with me;" But you do die, that which is you, that we all know and love, dies. But you do it anyway. And that which is bad fruit is stripped away and that which is good fruil is multiplied. This is why that Heaven is like a seed that falls on shallow ground and only grows for a little while. Most people won't go through this death. Ask MysticalMichael if he will This is just my version Phil, we are just in a Shalom Place of Discussion Ok? I want to know you version and am happy that you are willing to share it with me. Love, John

Phil I think that what you are considering Heaven is real. But I also think that (and please correct me if I am wrong) Paradise and the seven levels of Heaven are a part of Creation, something to be worked out of. How does your knowledge/understandings, understand this concept, in an feed back way? Love, john

John, I agree that there can be a way of looking at passages like Jn. 12: 24 in terms of a death of self, but if you read on you will see that Jesus is speaking of his "hour" that is coming soon -- the time of his death. In many other passages, he spoke of his death in a most literal sense as the passage he had to go through before being "raised up on the third day."

It's tempting to interpret the Christian mysteries through yogic and Buddhist lenses, and some interesting things can come from that, to be sure. But when it comes to the core issues -- namely the death and resurrection of Jesus, and what was "accomplished" through them -- it doesn't quite translate into a kind of analogy for the death of the false self and rising of the true. That's part of the Christian journey, for sure, but we also give witness to a historical dimension of these truths -- i.e., they really did happen, and in a most unique way for Jesus. He's not simply extending the life of the body he was born with; even that has been transformed in a marvelous manner.

So going back to rainbow bodies, which was mentioned earlier as a kind of parallel, or even something similar to resurrection. I don't know whether rainbow body occurrences really happen, but it's conceivable that a very holy person could have such a powerful impact on all they are in contact -- especially their own body -- so as to effect a transformation of some kind. That might even be the case with the "incorruptible" Christian saints and mystics, whose bodies did not decompose, and which give sweet aromas. In the case of Jesus, however, it goes far beyond that, as he didn't simply transform his body to spirit, but joins himself to the race through this risen body, which he can use to manifest as he so wills. He is a new Adam, in this sense, and not simply a great yogi like the others that Hinduism has produced.

Re. all the levels of heaven and whether they're part of creation . . I'll pass on that one. That's an area about which we can only speculate, not that it isn't fun doing so.

Shalom. Phil

caveyogi,

As far as spiritual death, I wish I'd never heard about any of this and it's very pain-full. Ouch!

About six years ago I saw a musty old book called Abandonment to Divine Providence in a church library. The Big Book from AA said to "abandon yourself to God as you understand God," so I got onto this path and it will have it's way with me, for better or for worse.

I'm great-full you are here to stimulate Phil. I'd hate to see him get bored and leave.

I'm gonna enjoy the interaction betwixt U2.

(A note about the spelling. I have some cognitive problems and dementia due to poor health. Thanks for putting up with me.)

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

Phil that is what I wanted to know. Michael I am not sure that I am going to be a challenge for Phil About the only thing that we have left would be the Catholic Saints. And that is thin So how about this just for fun:

If everthing in the Bible only refers to Jesus being able to do things and directly to Him only, then there is no reason for us to seek. He was the only one who could do it and He was "not" an example of what we also could do, through Him and God's Holy Spirit.

John 14:16-20 "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He maybe with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot recieve, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will behold me no more; because I live, you shall live also. In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in me, and I in you."

John 14:26 "But the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring you to remembrance all that I have said to you"

So why would Jesus send the Holy Spirit to us if He was coming back physically anytime soon. And why would He send us the Holy Spirit to teach us "all things" if we were not able to learn all things. And some where it also says "When you are fully trained," (but I don't know where that scripture is). And maybe this:

John 15:4 "Abide in Me, and I in you as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

John 7:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you. By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples."

We seem to have two schools of thought on things: 1) Nothing can happen until Jesus comes back, and only Jesus could do those things. And 2) We can do wonderous things "now" if Jesus abides in us and we are helped by the Helper, that also abides in us, that he sent us. And I think the concept of "If you believe," also comes into play. Because if you don't believe, then everything comes to a screeching halt. I don't know, what do you think? Love, John

Eyes on God and not on man. We've all done enough work around here to avoid any superstar competition of the mystic egos and all that.

90% of people aren't into what we go into in these threads, but that can lead to humility, since the responsibility to that 90% is so great.

I was giving you a compliment. I see you as raising the consciousness of our group mind. We're all one.

John is a more important gospel in modern times. Many an evangelical outreach, Catholic and Protestant, have been printing up those gospels and distributing them by the millions. This is a recent development in Christianity, happening since the 60's. I see it as a healthy trend, as it's the mystical gospel. I don't know what it means, but it fills me with wonder, mystery and awe, and the parts I feel that I do understand are quite wonder-full.

I love mystical John and the caveyogi,

mm <*))))><