Les, we cross-posted.

You wrote (about your mystical experience):

quote:

Why me? I don't know...other than I had/have been contemplating absolute truth with an all-consuming desire since I can remember. I will say that the experience is not something one dreams, imagines, or is the result of any kind of vision. It's real, absolute, and concrete, in a way that defies adequate description for something so direct and immediate.

I think my post above might has spoken to some of what you relate, in that such experiences are what Lonergan would call Stage 1 data events. Something of them continues to resonate later, but you're in the more reflective Stages 2 and 3 when you relate your experience to Underhill's writings, the gnostics, etc. That's interpretation, which is one or two removes from the direct experience. A mistake many make is to conflate the experience and interpretation, though there is surely a relation between the two. Interpretation places you in dialogue with others -- like Underhill, Christianity, Shalom Place, etc. The heretical gnostics considered themselves beyond the need for dialogue -- that their "knowing" was elitist and imbued them with certainty concerning matters of the spirit.

Btw, these kinds of experiences might not be as rare as you think. Most of my spiritual directees have had mystical experiences at times. Almost half of Americans claim to have had them as well.
- http://www.pewresearch.org/dai...ystical-experiences/

Les,
When I was saying "superficial" I meant my own experiences.I'm not sure, from your answer, if you got that.
In any case when you say "they all lead to the same", I'm quite sure they are not.

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
Les,
When I was saying "superficial" I meant my own experiences.I'm not sure, from your answer, if you got that.
In any case when you say "they all lead to the same", I'm quite sure they are not.

Mt... no, I was suggesting that I don't consider contemplation experiences superficial, and that all valid spiritual experiences lead to a greater understanding of spirit...my apologies for the confusion.

Thanks, Phil, for your remarks on dogmas and the link to a discussion. Perhaps it's also worth noting that main Christian dogmas are polemical in nature. They were a reaction to distortion of the Church's experience of God. When Jesus's equality to the Father started to be questioned, Church issued a dogmatic formulation of the Trinity. Earlier there was no need for that. So it's not some abstract oppressive thing. For example, someone distorts your experience,you naturally react by some kind of precise statement that they are wrong and where they are wrong. So for me dogmas are very mystical because they are expressions of experience.

That's a good point, Mt. In a perverse way, the heretics actually helped the Christian communities clarify what they really believed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les:
I've only met one in person who has lived with it most of his life. He ultimately found solace in following in the footsteps of Joseph Campbell ("The Power of Myth") as his medium and is in the process of publishing his own work (Joseph Alexander- http://www.mythicspiral.com/). Both of us have participated in the Kundalani Research Project as test subjects.

Hello Les

When I used the above address a page came up saying it doesn't exist. Did Joseph take
the page down>

Thanks

Hi Mary Sue...

Try this - http://www.mythicspiral.com/

For some reason it was carrying the ")" as part of the link.

To the list:
Richard Rohr is presently having some interesting posts on mystical experiences. One post addresses how we have been told not to trust our own experiences. [/QUOTE]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mary Sue,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:
....

One extreme we find -- and maybe it's what Les and others are objecting to -- is this tendency to present Christianity as a system of dogmatic teachings. This would easily deteriorate into an unhealthy dogma-tism, perhaps with witch hunts and emphases on pointing out heresies. That's out there, for sure, in almost every branch of Christianity, and that's unfortunate.".............


Yes, this is what I have been objecting to in these discussions.

........

Maybe it's even more helpful to think of dogma in terms of core beliefs. Everyone understands the importance of these. Our core beliefs are constituitive of our self-understanding, gifts, mission, etc. They can be changed and revised, but not easily, as we form them through experience, reflection and dialogue. They function in our lives as something of an interpretive lens and a compass to help orient us.

---------------
I can hear what you are saying when you express it this way. I have found that for many the mystical is not part of their core beliefs.

Phil, I’m not sure what I could write an entire book on, but thanks for your encouragement. I do love what I do and study. The connections never stop; I’m always stumbling on some new piece of information or new insight. I will pray for discernment and see where the Spirit leads. :-).

As for the kundalini as enSpirited human spirit, while reflecting on these passages, I put my Vedic glasses on just to see if anything resonated, I unexpectedly find they point out all levels of what Yoga/Ayurveda understands as the the four levels of mind:

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? (Inner consciousness —Chitta—air) In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God (Divine Consciousness—Atman—ether). 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world (Ego—(Ahamkara)—earth), but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand (True Intelligence—(buddhi)— fire) what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom (Manas—intellect—water) but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

14-15 are most definitely about discernment coming from Spirit (viveka through buddhi)

To clarify the above terms, there are three layers of the mind in Yoga: The outer mind consists of Ego and Manas (Intellect/Sense Mind). Note that Ego in the Vedic understanding means the process of differentiation, inherent and necessary for creation to become manifest as well as the self-identification with and defense of that process, and that “manas” means “instrument of thinking”, which is directed outward, working through the senses, to deal with the external world and derive facts. Inner mind is composed of (Jiva)Atman ((individualized portion of) Divinity, and the “background" mind (Chitta), comprised of western concepts such as the psyche, the unconscious, the superconscious, awareness, conditioned consciousness, and even more, which deals with inner reality and truth. Buddhi, which means “to perceive” or “to become awake” is the intermediary gateway between the two, which gives us the the ability to discern the “real from the unreal”. Real in Vedic thought specifically means that which is divine, eternal, not bound by time and space, and changeless. The prana/shakti of buddhi develops from the union of kundalini and amrit, themselves higher energies of ‘inner radiance’ and ‘primal vigor’, to allow proper discernment.

So, if you mean a western scientific understanding of kundalini as measurable biological energy, I doubt if this understanding fully captures its essence, but such a definition certainly satisfies the rational brain (manas) and its quantitative orientation (while Buddhi is qualitative.) Analyzing the phenomenon from this angle though would fall into the category of ‘maya’, whose root “ma” means that which can be measured. On the other hand, if you mean energy as a philosophical term (which may also include measurable energy), then yes, I like the way you articulated it.

Thanks, acuveda. I've read yogic literature and tried to relate it to various western systems.
- e.g., http://shalomplace.com/res/anthrp.html

I've not had the immersion that you have, however. Your depth of experience from two religious traditions is quite uncommon and most valuable.

quote:

On the other hand, if you mean energy as a philosophical term (which may also include measurable energy), then yes, I like the way you articulated it.

A few synonyms for energy: "vitality, vigor, life, liveliness, animation, vivacity, spirit, spiritedness, verve, enthusiasm, zest, vibrancy, spark, sparkle, effervescence, ebullience, exuberance, buoyancy." It's difficult to pin down a generic definition, but another is "the ability to do work."

It seems the usual way to speak of energy is in terms of what it does, or its effects, which is the approach I've taken with regard to kundalini and the Holy Spirit.

"It seems the usual way to speak of energy is in terms of what it does, or its effects, which is the approach I've taken with regard to kundalini and the Holy Spirit."

Yes! "The effects of" makes the most sense since the causal concerns itself with potential and the patterns through which potential gets expressed and becomes multiplicity in the subtle and gross realms. This causal level is exactly the principle employed in TCM herbology. I can use one formula to treat many diseases as long as it fits the pattern of disharmony...

So, back to my just sharing more of my k symptoms, last week I had some pretty intense k experiences, one being during the night after I went for Eucharistic adoration. I usually go for one hour once a week, but that time I had evening plans, so I did a shortened more focused adoration. My arms often start to vibrate intensely, not the usual gentle hum during the day, while kneeling before the monstrance. That night my sleep was shaken several times by a feeling of rapturous love radiating form my heart center, so much so that I thought I was going to break apart or go crazy. When I woke up in the morning and realized I had to face the day, the contrast was such a let down. How to navigate through that dampening feeling and that feeling of constant pining? I still want to be fully engaged in life and carry out God's will....

The following night, I had absolutely the most vividly bizarre dream, very Alice-in-Wonderland-like, that I suspect it to be similar to a psychedelic induced experience. (I have never experimented with such drugs, so I wouldn’t know really, just basing it on what others have told me or what I have read.) I remember initially feeling alarmed--it was SO vivid-- but reminded myself to let go of fear. I also often wake up vibrating, then there will be a pause in the vibration that keeps repeating. The same thing happens with the ocean sound in my ears. It’s as if it had a hiccup, but doesn’t seem to be connected to anything.

I also finally figured out another subtle phenomenon that was puzzling me. When I’m in deep prayer, I feel the magnetic, vibrating qi sensation emanating from my body. I kept feeling this outward push against the field and could not figure out where it was coming from but finally connected to my breath. Upon exhaling, the qi in my breath hits the qi coming from my body. Haha, I can feel the qi of my breath!

It’s all so intriguing. I had a classmate while studying oriental medicine who could hear people’s qi when they had acupuncture done. She would sometimes comment on a patient’s qi while we were in clinic together, but she refused to tell me what my qi sounded like. This perception came to her after she was badly electrocuted by her clothes dryer. She said she had met another person who could hear qi and that person had been struck by lightening.

The other is a light phenomenon. I mentioned several months back about seeing the light coming from my hands with eyes closed at the end of prayer, but what I don't think I mentioned was the burst of light that also came into my room. I remember rationalizing it and didn't think much about it until I went to a healing program at a church a couple of months later by a man with the charism of healing. He tours through once a year and the year before I had gone with several from the Life in the Spirit group (pre-K), but had felt emanating from him God's tenderness and heat pouring from the crucifix that he holds over everyone's head. At the second visit, as he circled around the altar and came to the side where I was standing, I was hit by an enormous burst of light and realized it was coming through him. Again, the light is only perceptible with eyes closed. (And that night more energetic sensations.)

Well, once the K symptoms became too intense last year, I curtailed by prayer time considerably, but would like to at least increase my CP to more than once a week, but then last week there was another burst of light when I got deep into prayer. I'm pretty sure the light coming through the healer wasn't generated by my brain. I know I was meditating quite a bit on Christ breaking through the veil before the first episode.

Oh, sorry for the length post but one last question. Do you make anything out of intensification of vibrations when reading certain materials?

quote:

Originally posted by acuveda:
I also often wake up vibrating, then there will be a pause in the vibration that keeps repeating. The same thing happens with the ocean sound in my ears. It’s as if it had a hiccup, but doesn’t seem to be connected to anything.

The vibration, while it does intensify, over time it becomes more refined. The same is true for the sounds, but if you think about it, does the sound exist in your ears, or your mind/head?

quote:

This perception came to her after she was badly electrocuted by her clothes dryer. She said she had met another person who could hear qi and that person had been struck by lightening.

Interesting... I've had a rather dicey relationship with electricity myself. Too much to share here, but I should have been named 'Sparky' <lol>

quote:

The other is a light phenomenon.

Yes. Pure uncreated white light. So intense. My dreams are filled at times, as are my meditations. When combined with meditation, and the intensification of HS/K, I'm at times consumed with it.

quote:

Oh, sorry for the length post but one last question. Do you make anything out of intensification of vibrations when reading certain materials?

The vibrations eventually refine, although the sound and sense amplify until one feels entirely consumed with a type of fire... I consider it the fire of the HS. At it's most intense, it originates from my feet, entirely consumes me, and is like a fire that emanates all the way to several feet above my head. The sound also intensifies to match... like I'm literally metaphysically on fire.

Thanks for sharing... it's 'comforting' to know others experience the same.

Mary Sue,

You say that the mystical is not a part of what you call "core beliefs". Do you mean Christian core beliefs? But mystical experience is nothing more than a vivid experience of truths which are a part of Christian faith: God is the Existence, he is present, he loves us etc. Even Buddhist mysticism is an experience of traditional metaphysical truths taught by Christian philosophers for ages - creatures receive their existence from Good, without him they are nothing, existence is unknowable in itself, soul is in a sense all things etc.

Thanks for so generously sharing your experiences, acuveda, and for your responses, Les.

acuveda, I am wondering what a Vedic interpretation of what you're sharing would be like? If you have a sense of that, I'd love to hear.

The big picture in all this is transformation by the grace of the Holy Spirit, which ripples through the spiritual level of our human nature through the psyche and body as well. With this in mind, it seems all sorts of phenomena can be understood, at least in the sense of accepted as part of the transformation process. So these detailed accounts of actual experiences are most helpful, and can reassure others who are undergoing intense transformation that they are still "on the map," as it were.

One common denominator in most upticks of phenomena seems to be associated with one's level of practice. More time spent in prayer/meditation stimulates the spiritual level, with concomitant repercussions in the psyche and body -- luminous dreams, vibrations, chi phenomena, etc. Sometimes we can't help it -- the allure of God, and our desire to belong to God more completely is at the heart of our prayer. In my experience, the psycho-physiological phenomena which ensue from such experiences might be intense, but not unpleasantly so. It's when one pushes ahead "on one's own," as though to try to "open higher chakras," or "be enlightened" or something like that -- then the psycho-physiological phenomena might not be so pleasant. Quite the contrary! Psyche and body will receive an overflow from an imbalanced spirit, and will reflect that accordingly. That's been the case in most unpleasant K phenomena I've come across, along with those times when "junk" is being cleansed from one's system.

Hope that's all helpful somehow. Again, thanks for the rich sharing.