Thanks for your sharing, Les. You've been on the journey a long time and have a deep perspective on how it has unfolded in your life. Very interesting how Evelyn Underhill helped you to validate the movements you experienced.

One thing you describe and that resonates strongly is that period you call Mortifications. That seems to correspond with the Purgative Stage of a traditional way of understanding the journey (Purgative, Illuminative, Unitive), and is extremely important, entailing active practices that help to orient and purify the mind and will. It seems at times that many would like to bypass this step, awakening to Self and a sense of union with God and then believing that's that. Underhill and traditional writers knew there could be profound spiritual experiences and insights even for beginners, but that this was but a preview of things to come.

I've taught courses on spiritual development and am familiar with a number of ways of charting the journey, but have found that, for every approach, no one size fits all. What I'm more inclined to emphasize now in spiritual direction is deepening growth in virtue, love, prayer, service, authenticity, wisdom, etc., encouraging active practices where they can be helpful, and, especially, allowing grace to draw one into unitive, infused gifts. I use this standard for myself as well, and think the traditional stages are helpful insofar as they give us an idea of how, in general, the journey unfolds.

Re. Pantheism/Monotheism, I suppose the biggest question is just how seriously one takes the reality of creation. An intermediate position is panentheism, which affirms creation as of-God, but not-God, and yet capable of participating in and being influenced by the life of God. That seems true to the theotic perspective of Christianity. The Catholic doctrine of the Communion of Saints also recognizes the enduring existence of individual humans who live by God's life. I think we begin to experience that in this life, and will do so fully in the next.

I think that the mystery of Incarnation obviously presupposes the distinction between God and the creation. It makes no sense for God to become Human if everything is already God in a real sense. Christian mysticism is incarnational in the sense that we can truly experience God's Life only because, as St. John said yesterday in his letter: Life revealed Itself. Through Jesus od Nazareth. Only in him humans can become God, which, again, presupposes that we are not already God...

Hi Phil,

A couple of fine points that may/may not prove useful...

Non-Reflecting Consciousness - I think there are actually two 'states', and Evelyn Underhill doesn't mention the first. While she labels the first phase as 'Awakened to Self', I tend to see it unfold in others as it did for me as...

1. Begin meditating.

2. Awareness - Becoming aware of Non-Reflecting consciousness in tandem with Reflecting Consciousness. This tends to occur either when meditating and experiencing a separateness as an observer from the mind chatter/thoughts (reflecting consciousness), or they'll be engaging in a conversation with others when all of a sudden they notice that they are 'observing' themselves in conversation. I would call this 'Awareness'.

3. Awakened (Samadhi) - the complete absorption in non-reflective conscious awareness. Only minimal reflection can occur here without 'waking up' reflective conscious awareness. It's singular.

I've started reading your book and it seems you describe the first, or perhaps blend the two. It's probably a fine point, but Recollection and Purgation didn't begin for me until after experiencing Samadhi.

Another point for those interested is that her two purification stages can be related as...

Recollection and Purgation phase, which I refer to as Purgatory and occurs after Samadhi (Awakened to Self)... is the clearing of those things done to you in this life and others. This is like Psychotherapy or 'cognitive retraining' (which I also went through during this phase).

Mortification phase, which I refer to as Judgement and occurs after Illumination/Enlightenment... is the clearing of that for which you are responsible that created energy blockages. This makes Purgatory seem almost trivial when comparing levels of intensity. At times it can be soul wrenching and psychically excruciating.

>>panentheism

I hadn't come across that term before, but it does seem to bridge the two rather nicely. I would also have to say that it more accurately describes my own experiences during Illumination/Enlightenment.

I've been marking things in the book for later question/comment as it relates to my own experiences on this journey. Gaining clarification over the years has been a most engaging challenge.

Thanks, Les.

What's curious is that in my own case, the emergence of non-reflecting consciousness as a state that became clearly distinguished from reflecting consciousness came after years of regular prayer, spiritual practice, and fairly frequent experiences of contemplation and glossalalia. It was the resting in God non-reflectively that left me non-reflectingly aware even after the contemplative graces had subsided. I recognized this to be somewhere in the ballpark of what Advaita and Zen enlightenment were describing, but never sought to have it validated by anyone from those traditions as I considered it a natural state -- a more direct experience of my Self, or "I." Furthermore, as I note in the God and I book, this consciousness has always been present, only more sublated in reflective processes. I consider this type of awakening valuable, but not the true goal of Christian spirituality. It's an example of an area where Christians can learn from the East, and vice versa.

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
I think that the mystery of Incarnation obviously presupposes the distinction between God and the creation. It makes no sense for God to become Human if everything is already God in a real sense. Christian mysticism is incarnational in the sense that we can truly experience God's Life only because, as St. John said yesterday in his letter: Life revealed Itself. Through Jesus od Nazareth. Only in him humans can become God, which, again, presupposes that we are not already God...

Hi Mt... I had to mull this over a bit before responding.

Reincarnation - based on what I experienced during illumination, reincarnation is simply part of 'becoming', and is part/parcel of our maturation. I remember aspects of several incarnations from the time of the building of the pyramids through recent history.

God and creation - again, based on what I experienced, everything was 'of God', and yet, everything that was of God also existed independently at the same time. Since everything is 'of God', there is 'no other'. It's what Jesus meant about not striking your neighbor...you're essentially striking yourself. There is no contradiction.

Mt wasn't talking about re-incarnation, Les, but about the Incarnation -- God becoming human as Jesus Christ.

Neither Jesus nor Christianity taught pantheism or reincarnation. Duality is real; there is indeed an other. Something can be of-God and yet distinct from God -- simultaneously. To be of-God does not mean that one is-God. And yet we can participate in the life of God through the grace of the Spirit.

Duality - yes! Love needs two independent free and intelligent beings (persons) to happen. If everything is absolutely one, there can be no love, only some love-like feelings perhaps. Even God is the Trinity to express Love internally. For me the difference between Christian contemplation and natural forms of enlightenment is that in the first I clearly feel attracted, called, drawn or filled by a very personal Presence. There is Union between tak distinct persons, different from the unity of all-is-God or all-is-One.

Happy New Year everyone!

Here's a great quote from Emil Mersch's The Theology of the Mystical Body (page numbers):

390. There is a single or a twofold "I" in Christ: there is one subject who is this "I," yet He, because of His two distinct natures, expresses this subject in two different ways.

391. We have to hold that there is only one consciousness in God, because He has but one nature. But since there are three persons in God, we have to say there are three ultimate and distinct subjects who know themselves and are conscious; in this sense the divine consciousness is threefold.

We may say there are three conscious relations, or a triple consciousness of the relations, in this one absolute consciousness.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Mt wasn't talking about re-incarnation, Les, but about the Incarnation -- God becoming human as Jesus Christ.

Ahhh...that makes more sense. Thx.

quote:

Neither Jesus nor Christianity taught pantheism or reincarnation. Duality is real; there is indeed an other. Something can be of-God and yet distinct from God -- simultaneously. To be of-God does not mean that one is-God. And yet we can participate in the life of God through the grace of the Spirit.

Reincarnation: Well, many posit that indeed it does support reincarnation. One such posit at (http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history/bible.html#a05) offers a well considered perspective on the subject and states that "All Hebrew and Christian scriptures support reincarnation: the Bible, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Christian Gnostic gospels, the Torah, the Hebrew Bible, the Apocrypha, the Kabbalah and Zohar." and provides a good summary of the history. In brief, it was taught until the decree of the Fifth Catholic Council declaring reincarnation to be heresy - "If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it, let him be anathema [excommunicated]." While the posit is interesting, I'm not attempting to argue scripture, but only to relate my Illumination experience as it relates to the Jesus saga. It was only sometime after illumination that I finally understood Jesus' perspective in the many examples he provided when trying to describe God and God's nature.

Pantheism: I agree. A drop of water is both the Ocean and not the Ocean at the same time. There is but one God, and no other. Hence "there is no other". My previous comment may have been misleading. I experienced God AS God, then myself as FROM God but also as "I". For me, it was the greatest part of the experience...that I was of THAT, and that "I" remain.

Les, the Apostolic tradition of Christianity (mainstream Christianity) never taught reincarnation. There's just no evidence for that. The gnostics didn't even come along until the 2nd C. after Jesus, and parts of their teaching were condemned by the Apostolic tradition as they viewed matter as evil (and other problems).

I did a teaching on all this recently. Check it out on youtube if interested. Lots of other info on the net as well, but you can't go by New Agey sites to determine what Christianity teaches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqmXGKGo6g0&t=10s

I understand what you're saying about the experience you had about being of-God and yet yourself. Makes sense to me. I've had similar experiences as well. I guess I misunderstood what you meant by "there is no other."

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Les, the Apostolic tradition of Christianity (mainstream Christianity) never taught reincarnation. There's just no evidence for that.

Thanks Phil... unfortunately, it doesn't square with my experience or my interpretation of scripture, which has admittedly been altered by the journey. The most obvious discrepancy for me regarding reincarnation was one of the issues discussed in both the old and new testament by several including Jesus...

-----
"Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." (Malachi 4:5)
-----
"For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come." (Matthew 11:13-14)
-----
"And the disciples asked him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?'

"But he answered them and said, 'Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.'

"Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:10-13)
-----

I don't know if you had the time/chance to read all the way through his argument, but as a scientist, I thought he did a good job of decomposing the subject matter through the use of negation to reach his conclusions and resolve discrepancies, whether one agrees or differs in opinion.

Thanks again.
--L

Les, I address all those issues in the youtube teaching I linked to. So have many scholars.

Best wishes to all for the new year!

Hi Les. Thanks for sharing your journey and insight. I check in ever few months or so and share as bit. It's interesting and sometimes helpful for me to hear how others are experiencing and perceiving this phenomenon.

I continue to have the altered state now and then at night and the euphoric mild vibrations throughout my body. One night, I became "awake" and one star appeared in the center of my vision. Then suddenly the space took on a deeper dimension and a multitude of stars appeared. I remember feeling as if I had been transported to the middle of the galaxy. I remembered, too, that it was the second time finding myself in the stars.

I still have the physical cleansing going on. For three weeks I had a strange rash of "unknown etiology" appeared, followed by a three week cough, and now a feeling of something stuck in my throat... and I am one of those people who almost never gets sick. (The last time I went to the doctor, he couldn't believe I hadn't been seen in 8 years.)

Perhaps more of note is the effect I have seen on my patients since the K-awakening. I often pray over my patients, especially when I am moved by their suffering. A couple of weeks, I had a regular patient who told me she had long-standing grief due to much loss in her life. I touched the needle on her crown chakra and silently asked God to heal her. I came back after five minutes to remove the needles, and she told me while I was gone that a very warm feeling came over her body and she felt really good, even in the car all the way home. At her next appointment she wanted to know what the point on the top of her head was.

I had another patient, 69 y.o. who had a stroke about twenty years ago and as a result completely lost her libido. She told me that miraculously, not only had it returned, but that she felt like she was when she was 15 years old when she first fell in love with her husband. She was convinced it was because I do "that needle on the top of the head." I was treating her for something completely different and never knew about the libido problem.

I also had a patient who has severe mental illness as a result of horrific abuse from her father. She never leaves her house unless it is to see her therapist, who convinced her to come for acupuncture. I began praying over her and in the few weeks she came, she joined a yoga class, and told her therapist she liked me--she doesn't like ANYONE, so it was a major break through.

I'm not sure what to think except God is great and God is merciful. I know acupuncture is helpful for a variety of conditions, but I never saw these kinds of improvements before I had the K-awakening symptoms, (and there have been many more; some I can't even believe.) I certainly don't consider myself a master acupuncturist either.

In the meantime, I am remembering to trust the process and take things a day at a time.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: acuveda,

Les,

when you use terms like "Jesus saga" or you say that your mystical experience changed the way you interpret the Scripture (with regard to reincarnation) it can be easily understood in such a way that you put your own mystical experience and your own interpretation of the Scripture above the understanding that the Church moved by the Holy Spirit have possessed through centuries. I don't know if this is what you mean, but if we don't read the Scripture within a believing community, inspired by the Spirit, then NECESSARILY it becomes just a private trip, where you can find and interpret out of the Bible anything you want.

Although my journey lasts only about 15 years, I can see clearly that the more the experience of God grows in me in those years, the more I find meaning in the way the Church proclaims the Gospel and in the Sacraments. It is not going "above" the visible Church as if there was an elitist club of mystics and the crowd of believers, but it seems that those who happen to be mystics don't have anything else which every baptized believer has, except perhaps for a greater vividness and immediacy of understanding of the Gospel. One of Dominican mystics who has recently died, used to say that towards the end of his life he found that the most mystical text of the Church, apart from the Bible, were the Catechism and the Missal. This is the spirit I'm talking about. Perhaps you just don't talk about it, but I think it's crucial to be anchored in this.

Good to receive your update, Acuveda. It sounds like something of a deepening healing ministry is emerging in your practice as the purification process unfolds. Some rough times with the latter as well.

During the past three years, my wife (a psychotherapist) has become trained in an approach called "Somatic Experience Therapy," which she finds very helpful in dealing with people who've experienced trauma. She herself was much helped by the therapy during the training. We carry so much in our bodies, and when we begin to heal, it evacuates in so many ways, sometimes bizarre ones. SE facilitates this healing and I think kundalini process does the same. I've wondered if the two could be brought together -- that SE could help with some of the unwinding of knots and blockages we suffer through during the process. It seems that a synergy is possible.

Don't know what to make of the stars. I've seen that before as well. My first inclination is to consider these experiences symbolic representations from the unconscious -- how the energy is being symbolically presented to our awareness. That doesn't make it less real -- the symbols are indeed real, and carry their own unique meanings.

Blessings in this new year!