Mt and Les, I've seen many times where people have experiences which they believe calls for a wholesale re-interpretation of Scripture, theology, doctrine, etc. It may well be that an experience influences how one understands a teaching, but this interpretation must be in dialogue with the discerned understand of the religious community, whether it be Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.

People have asked me many times how I could remain a Catholic after receiving kundalini -- as though the great truths of Hinduism must now be apparent to me, displacing my silly Catholic superstition. But, truly, there is nothing in kundalini or any other mystical experience that negates the truth of Christ's resurrection, the Trinity, the Sacraments, etc. Truth is a matter of intellectual conviction arrived at from dialogue about the meaning of experiences and events. Experience is data, which must be reflected upon. Even powerful experiences like past-life memories can be understood in different ways. I have dreamed I lived at other times, that I can fly, that I was a woman, etc. -- none of which have implications for Catholic doctrine, but are worth reflecting upon as psychological data.

Worth considering here is the Catholic view of "private revelation" in relation to "public revelation."
- see http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Phil,

Thanks, Phil, for the info on SET. I had a friend undergo some therapy for PTSD that sounds something like it. She found it very helpful as well. We also have therapies in traditional Chinese medicine designed to release emotional trauma stored in the body, but to be well trained in it, we have to find pre/non-communist traditional practitioners. In TCM, the body is not separated from the emotions or spirit, so in treating the body, the whole person is affected. The hardest is getting people to relate to the concept. The thing about repressed emotions is that they are unconscious and modern people are very Cartesian....

Interestingly, my first physical k-cleansing experiencing lead me to the work of John E. Sarno, MD, who wrote several books on the body-mind connection. I also incorporate some Jungian psychology in conjunction with the point names, as well as yogic psychology, to help patients see connections in their condition and the life they are living. I encourage therapy whenever appropriate.

I also had a dream years ago that came after my mom prayed over me for a flare up of a very rare and serious condition, which lead me eventually to the more recent research on inherited memories: http://discovermagazine.com/20...c-mark-on-your-genes
I think this research is very insightful for things that have been perceived as family "curses" or perhaps the discussion on memories of past lives, not to mention a host of other conditions and phenomena.

Interesting that you also experienced the stars.... When the first star appeared, I immediately thought of Christ the Light. And then when all the starts appeared, multiplicity. The One and the Many. Yes, to me that was a meaningful interpretation.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Les, I address all those issues in the youtube teaching I linked to. So have many scholars.

Hi Phil, I understand. Thx.

quote:

a feeling of something stuck in my throat..

Hi Acuveda,

I've experienced the same. It lasted several months as well, though I didn't experience any cold/flu symptoms, and usually only experienced it during meditation. It's Kundalini clearing energy blockages in the throat chakra. I wasn't sure what was happening until I read about it in one of the books on Kundalini and Nadis.

>>rarely sick

I'm also rarely sick...the last time was around 2011. I understand that is common once the process reaches a certain stage. Structural issues are another matter though (back, teeth, etc.)

>>energy transference

I always find this interesting. A few years ago I injured my sciatic and went to an acupuncturist who also practices qigong. He picked up on the energy right away and did some experiments with it to see if it would help beyond the acupuncture after asking me if it was OK. It amped up my vibration to the point it was difficult to stay on the table until he gave me a suggestion for funneling the energy. Funny, but it should have been obvious...I'd been visualizing the energy moving vertically, but he suggested I process it spirally (like you see the serpent representations for the medical symbol) and it helped considerably. It also helped at night when I'd wake up vibrating to the extent it was shaking the bed...much to my wife's relief <g>

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
Les,

when you use terms like "Jesus saga" or you say that your mystical experience changed the way you interpret the Scripture (with regard to reincarnation) it can be easily understood in such a way that you put your own mystical experience and your own interpretation of the Scripture above the understanding that the Church moved by the Holy Spirit have possessed through centuries. I don't know if this is what you mean, but if we don't read the Scripture within a believing community, inspired by the Spirit, then NECESSARILY it becomes just a private trip, where you can find and interpret out of the Bible anything you want.

Saga - a long, involved story, account, or series of incidents.

I think we can all agree that Jesus' narrative is the core of Christianity. If one reads Jesus' narrative in isolation, best read in a chronological account, it offers a very pristine perspective without the need for a church to interpret, or to be confused by any other biblical posit. The only difficulty is that it is very difficult, even for Jesus, to describe The Absolute (God) in a human language. We tend to view God as a divine version of humanity, and when Jesus tries to relate the truth of the nature of God via parables, even the church falls short in the explanation. Once one see's and experiences God, then it makes sense once the old explanations are tossed because the nature of God is far more vast than anything explained by the church in my experience. I'm trying to relate that in a treatise I hope to release soon, but the barrier in the medium of language is quite challenging. I'm only one of many in history who have tried, but the challenges are many.

Phil,

Reading through your book...

"And what of God? How is God related to “I”? God is not “I”. Rather, God is the “Am” in which “I” affirm the fact of my existence: “I Am.” This “Am”, or Existence, is utterly distinct from “I”, for “I” cannot, of its own accord, know anything more about It than the fact that “It Is.” And yet Existence is also the source of “I”; apart from It, “I” has no existence, no “Am.” Something of Existence must therefore be present within “I”, for It is the means by which “I” has its own being. “I” cannot extract Existence from itself, however, so “I” can never know what it is apart from Existence. Through the “I” in every person, then, something of the glory and numinosity of Existence Itself shines forth. Those who are awake to their own “I” know this truth, but those who have lost themselves in the disordered mental activity stirred up by fear and arrogance are asleep to the wonder of Existence."

This is brilliant and quite transcendent! Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Les:
Phil,

. . . This is brilliant and quite transcendent! Thanks.

Well, err . . .

We can all thank St. Thomas Aquinas for that one. The approach I used is based on his metaphysics and theology.

quote:

We tend to view God as a divine version of humanity, and when Jesus tries to relate the truth of the nature of God via parables, even the church falls short in the explanation. Once one see's and experiences God, then it makes sense once the old explanations are tossed because the nature of God is far more vast than anything explained by the church in my experience.

Les, I'm not sure how familiar you are with orthodox (Apostolic, mainstream) Christian teaching, but no one describes God as "a divine version of humanity." The divine per se is understood to be unfathomable mystery, spiritual, the sum of all ultimacies, supreme being, etc. Maybe you're reacting to some kind of "straw man" conception of God floating around?

And yet, we also believe that God has revealed Godself in history, and especially in the person of Jesus. What is revealed is more the character of God, although Jesus lets us in on the nature of God as Trinity as well. Jesus also reveals through his resurrection the new humanity he has brought -- something you will not find in any other religion, and which comes through him as God's incarnate one.

quote:

If one reads Jesus' narrative in isolation, best read in a chronological account, it offers a very pristine perspective without the need for a church to interpret, or to be confused by any other biblical posit.

Reading the Gospel accounts "without the need for a church" is like reading a book without a need for an author. The Gospel accounts come to us through the church, and are properly interpreted by the church, who is the human agent of their formulation. The gospels are written accounts of what was already established and accepted in the Christian oral tradition. It was the church that affirmed the authenticity of the written accounts, not vice versa.

The more you share, the more I think you are coming from some gnostic type perspective on Christianity. Perhaps the youtube by my friend and biblical scholar, Jerry Truex, on "How the New Testament Came to Be" would be helpful here. I post the link below for your (and anyone else's) consideration. It's excellent material, well worth hearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AgIImBqj6Q

Les, thanks for the spiral image. I remember seeing a caterpillar metamorphosis in time lapse photography with reminded me of the kriyas I experience mostly at night—the abdominal contractions and the final gyrations look much like the caterpillar’s! Nature’s blueprint for transformation… Luckily my husband’s a heavy sleeper :-).

My k-journey began very recently just over a year ago after hanging out with the charismatics at church. I never got into meditation because the first time I tried 15 years ago, I experienced such intense adana vayu (ascending prana) that when I got up to walk, I felt like I had no gravity, and it vitiated the descending prana as well. (I understood from my Ayurvedic studies, what was happening.) I took up centering prayer after the awakening, and then only minimally because otherwise there is just too much after effect. I get enough from Mass, Eucharistic adoration, etc.

Actually, I was very healthy as a child, rarely missing school and became even healthier after becoming a vegetarian in my early twenties. That’s why the new symptoms are so unusual for me. When the seemingly random pain or symptom overtakes me, I suddenly remember the event—the broken foot, the neck sprain, the surgery, the chickenpox, etc.

I don’t see myself as transferring my energy in my patients’ healing because as I understand it, when I pray for healing, God works through me, but God is still doing the healing. While I do believe we can cultivate our own body’s energy to its fullest as Eastern healing systems teach, for better health or even perhaps enough to transfer those energies, they are not strong enough to produce lasting effects in others. As I remember reading in one Hindu source: those kinds of healers only delay a person’s karma; true healing comes from God as an act of grace.

As for your recent comments regarding your understanding of Jesus, if you have a Hindu affiliation, you might be interested in the writings of those scholars focusing on the Hindu-Christian domain if you haven’t already done so: Bede Griffiths, Raimon Panikkar, Beatrice Bruteau come to mind, to give you perhaps a deeper and broader yet still Christian perspective on the understanding of the Christ Mystery. Best wishes in your journey.

Les,

As far as I know the gospel, Jesus' goal was never to "describe God in human language, as you put it. Jesus himself was the fullest "description" of the Father in human terms. He is the Word, that is, the Father said through him all that he wanted to say. In the prologue to John we read: No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father's side, has revealed him. God is incomprehensible but we learn about him when we see the Infant in the crib or the crucifixion. "Decoding " this message that Christ is is the ultimate meaning of our life, prayer and mystical experience. So I don't think that bypassing Jesus to plunge into the depths of the Absolute is a good way to know the Unknowable Father.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Les, I address all those issues in the youtube teaching I linked to. So have many scholars.

Phil - Thanks. I watched the video and I understand. It's the same perspective I grew up with from a fundamentalist interpretation, and one of the areas where it seemed there was a lot of supposition. It's one of the areas where most of the mystic interpretations I've read diverge. Based on the unification experiences my interpretation agrees mostly with...

"But all the mystics of the world say, first be thyself, then dissolve thyself also into the eternity of existence. Then whatever comes out of that eternity, you are just a vehicle, you are just a hollow bamboo. Whatever song is sung on the hollow bamboo, it becomes a flute. It does not obstruct, it allows the song to flow through it. Whatever existence wants to sing through it, you are just a hollow bamboo -- no self, no I, just a pure passage for existence to respond."

In other words, along the lines of the posit by Evelyn Underhill...

1. 'The Awakening of Self' - this is death to the ignorance of Self, death to the illusion.

2. 'The Purification of Self' - One then enters Purgatory (recollections, purgations).

3. 'The Illumination of Self' - One then becomes Illumined / Enlightened - being immersed in God and God-Self.

“The kingdom of God is not coming in a way that can be observed outwardly, nor will people say, “Look! It is here” or “There it is”, because the kingdom of God exists within you.” --(LK 17:21-21)

4. 'The Dark Night of the Soul' - One then enters Judgement (mortifications)

5. 'The Unitive Life' - Unification, eventually "...just a pure passage for existence to respond."

In other words, from a mystic perspective, including my own journey/experience, this is the path that unfolds when we are deemed ready after who knows how many veiled incarnations.

Thanks again. It's an area I can explore further in my own treatise.

--L

Les, I'm not understanding what the five points you make about transformation have to do with reincarnation, except that you say "this is the path that unfolds when we are deemed ready after who knows how many veiled incarnations."

That's an Eastern perspective, not a mystical one. You won't find one single Christian mystic saying anything like this, and, yes, Christianity does have a profound mystical tradition.

I think my youtube addressed a variety of biblical perspectives on the issue of John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah, and not so much from the perspective of fundamentalism, but from that of sound biblical scholarship. As the video indicated, there are several scriptures that speak to this issue, and none of them suggest reincarnation, but the re-surgence of a prophetic ministry in John such as was evidenced in Elijah. Here's a short synopsis:
- http://www.equip.org/article/w...-the-baptist-elijah/

How about we drop the discussion on reincarnation and gnostic Christianity and stick to "kundalini awakening symptoms" or at least kundalini in the transformative process -- an issue you have experience to share. We've had those other discussions numerous times on this site so you could use the search tool to track down one of those threads if you'd like to see how it goes. Basically, this site is committed to spirituality in the Apostolic Christian tradition, which has an authentic mystical tradition going back to St. Paul, the early Christians, the desert years, monasticism, etc.

Acuveda, your experiences of charismatic spirituality and Ayurvedic medicine are a very rare combination, and I thank you for sharing about this on the forum.

quote:

I never got into meditation because the first time I tried 15 years ago, I experienced such intense adana vayu (ascending prana) that when I got up to walk, I felt like I had no gravity, and it vitiated the descending prana as well. (I understood from my Ayurvedic studies, what was happening.)

That's what I'm talking about.

I wonder how many have been confused about an issue like this, or pranotthana? It's not always easy to distinguish the latter from kundalini awakening, except that pranic movements in kundalini seem to have something of a "goal" -- minimally, sustaining 3rd eye consciousness, and cleansing the body/mind.

You might be the one who shared this link, but I'll list it again, as I have found it helpful. I think there's a lot more pranotthana going around than kundalini.
- http://www.yogamag.net/archive...9/cmar79/prano.shtml

Phil, thanks for the earlier thought on the Trinity. I remember some time ago you put it very briefly and clearly : we know from experience one person having one nature (consciousness, intellect, will etc.), because we are that, but the gospel confronts us with Three Persons having one nature and One Person having two natures. God is creative, isn't he? One thing that amazes me in that is how deeply we can be united to God and one another without losing our personhood. Through double natures of Jesus we are immersed in the Trinity and there we can be Gods worshipping God, as Gregory of Nazianzus said it.

I agree, Phil, with the pranottana assessment. I learned in my Ayurvedic studies that the opening of just one chakra was incredibly difficult to put into motion, something akin to meditating in a cave for ten years, which, of course, had no appeal for me. Meditation wasn't something to take on lightly either and required the guidance of an experience spiritual teacher, which I didn't have anyway. So, I tend to take all the western new age-y fluff feel-good attitude around it with a grain of salt. The other month I had a very young acupuncture patient, 19-y.o., requesting treatment to "get her kundalini to rise" and "open her chakras"....

I can tell my body is undergoing a new phase in the k-process. I noticed that my hamstrings have lost their life-long tightness this last week. Yoga understands tight hamstrings as repressed anger in the body, and I am naturally very flexible except in this one area. I have always hated stretching them but now I can easily fold forward, and the muscles feel like they are rejoicing in their liberation--a completely different quality in sensation. I can also feel something in the upper thorax, as if the muscles are crying, releasing. I get the same feeling in my body as if I had had a good cry, only I haven't cried (aside from a year ago, for the first few weeks.)

I feel grateful for this unusual combination of experiences, that God has been leading me all the way through it all for his greater purpose. There is a certain fullness that comes from it.