Hi All,

Does anyone here practice Centering Prayer?
If so, for how long? Are there any experiences you would like to share about it?

Also, does the Welcoming Prayer help you in stressful times? Are there any instances when you simply cannot welcome the circumstances of life?

I have been practicing centering prayer for a number of years and I'm simply curious about others experiences with it.

Thanks.

bj

Yes, BJ, I have practiced Centering Prayer about 5 years now. I see the good results in my daily life. If a negative memory or emotion surfaces, the Welcoming Prayer is very valuable. I have noticed it used almost totally the same in other healing venues. Don't ignore it First, acknowledge it, listen to it, allow yourself to fully feel the pain and emotions. Then release it to our merciful Lord. Give thanks.Make positive statements.

I realize this is a very basic response. I also enjoy the Ignatian method of getting into the scene of a scripture and letting it play out. Do you belong to a group?

Nice to meet you, Claire.

I was thinking more about the application of the Welcoming Prayer to specific life situations, not
the customary painful thoughts or emotions. I would probably rename it the Acceptance Prayer or
the Prayer of Surrender. I can't imagine welcoming certain situations of life.....the terminal illness, a natural disaster......So, I guess it is the name that is bothering me and, if I had my preference, I would change it.

I have at times belonged to various groups. I think there is an upside and downside to group membership. The upside involves the accountability and support present in many groups. The downside can be be the fall again into over identification with mythic membership.
.....including the CP group and group expectations.

I've found it to be an excellent way to develop a relationship with the Living Christ and a help
in all areas of my life.

bj

Hi BJ,

We had an extensive discussion of CP sometime back.
- see https://shalomplace.org/eve/for...?r=35010585#35010585

I know you're inquiring more about practice, but just thought I'd mention . . .

I myself don't do CP as it is taught by Contemplative Outreach, as I find it better to wait to do simplified prayer when recollection comes during the course of lectio divina, or simply being with God in silence. I also have a huge problem with that aspect of the teaching that holds that we can't be experiencing God if we are having "thoughts." But, as noted on the thread above, I know many people have benefited from CP, and that's an important witness.

Phil,
Thanks for the link.

I've also begun to read David Frenette's book, "The Path of Centering Prayer." It's addressing some of my concerns.


I never heard of the aspect that says we can't be experiencing God if we are having thoughts. My understanding is that being silent interiorly simply enhances our receptivity. The thoughts come and go like boats on a river. We simply watch them go by without getting caught up in them. If and when we do, we simply go back to our sacred word. This puts thoughts in their proper perspective and opens us up to other ways of being receptive to the Presence.

Something I have experienced at times can best be described as "compassion flashes." This is not part of my CP period. Nor have I seen it mentioned in the literature. It sometimes happens afterwards in ordinary life. I will see another person and sometimes experience an insight accompanied with a flash of compassion for them. I wondered if anyone else who has practiced this prayer for an extended time period could identify with this. I would explain it as having my Christ Self/Higher Self manifest.

I think various types of prayer are appropriate for different times of our lives and different personality types. I'm glad you found types of prayer that help you, too.

bj

We had an extensive discussion of CP sometime back.
- see https://shalomplace.org/eve/for...?r=35010585#35010585

"I myself don't do CP as it is taught by Contemplative Outreach, as I find it better to wait to do simplified prayer recollection comes during the course of lectio divina, or simply being with God in silence. I also have a huge problem with that aspect of the teaching that holds that we can't be experiencing God if we are having "thoughts." But, as noted on the thread above, I know many people have benefited from CP, and that's an important witness."

Thanks, Phil, for referring us to past discussions on current dialogue. That is very helpful and appreciative. In all the years of CP, I had never heard it said or implied “that we cannot be experiencing God if we are having thoughts.” If my mind wanders to a food recipe, or finances, or political issue, etc, I would much prefer using a sacred word to call attention to the Source of all who has a plan far beyond my imagination.

Our CP group (only 8 of us) in the past would do our meditation after consenting to the Presence and action of God within; and then listen to a teaching by Fr. Keating. Now, after the meditation, we use a scripture and a group lectio divina form for prayer and sharing. Works very well. Also at home we recognize lectio divina as high priority.
------------------------

BJ, yes I occasionally experience "compassion flashes", sometimes with tears. It might be a reaction to an intense need of someone I know, but mostly it happens regarding a devastating situation on the tv news. It always catches me by surprise. I sense it as the heart of Christ.

Sharing experiences of the heart was a message in my home prayer group today, the conclusion being that there is far more compassion, kindness, good-will and helpful caring in the world despite what the media reports. "The Light shines in the darkness."

Hi Claire,

I'm referring more to quotes like this one:

quote:

Let go of sensible and spiritual consolation. When you feel the love of God flowing into you, it is a kind of union, but it is a union of which you are aware. Therefore, it is not pure union, not full union.”... There is no greater way in which God can communicate with us than on the level of pure faith. This level does not register directly on our psychic faculties because it is too deep. (Chapter 7, Part II, Open Mind, Open Heart)

That one seemed odd, in that one is to reject even experiences of the love of God in CP in favor of a virtue Fr. Keating calls "pure faith." Other teachings on "pure faith" give the same impression. Maybe check out Jim Arraj's critique of some aspects of CP found at the link below:
- http://www.innerexplorations.c...htm#Thomas%20Keating

quote:

"I am convinced that it is a mistake to identify the experience of contemplative prayer with contemplative prayer itself, which transcends any impression of God’s radiating or inflowing presence." (16) So we are back, as well, to contemplation without the experience of contemplation. The essence of contemplative prayer is the "way of pure faith," which no faculty can perceive. "One can be having this "experience" on the deepest level beyond the power of any faculty to perceive it." (17)

Some of this gets silly after awhile, but it can also overly activate the unconscious and lead to discomfiting overflows of energy into the body, if one keeps pushing forward while ignoring the warning signs.

But, for the most part, sitting in prayerful attentiveness, turning to God with a sacred word, phrase or gesture when one begins to get caught up in a distraction -- that's OK. Just, please, everyone, do not reject consolations when they are given, or thoughts through which God is speaking. Those experiences do us good.

Another example, from Arraj's webpage:

quote:

"Sometimes there are no thoughts. There is only my self-awareness. I don’t know whether to let go of it or be aware of it." Fr. Keating responds: "That is a crucial question. If you are aware of no thoughts, you are aware of something and that is a thought. If at that point you can lose the awareness that you are aware of no thoughts, you will move into pure consciousness. In that state there is no consciousness of self. When your ordinary faculties come back together again, there may be a sense of peaceful delight, a good sign that you were not asleep. It is important to realize that the place to which we are going is one in which the knower, the knowing, and that which is known are all one. Awareness alone remains. The one who is aware disappears along with whatever was the object of consciousness. This is what divine union is. There is no reflection of self. The experience is temporary, but it orients you toward the contemplative state. So long as you feel united with God, it cannot be full union."

- from Open Mind, Open Heart, p. 11.

It's debatable that "this is what divine union is."

Claire, Thanks for sharing with me about your "compassion flashes." When it happens to me, I understand the Scripture where St. Paul talks about 'not I but Christ in me.' I know that it's not my ordinary state of consciousness that is seeing this way. I can't make it happen either.

Which brings me to.....Phil (or Claire), do you think that when or if the "compassion flashes" become "compassion states" that indicates divine union?

bj

Thanks, Phil. I truly appreciate your teaching and the time to locate references..
I accept this good advice.:
“Some of this gets silly after awhile, but it can also overly activate the unconscious and lead to discomfiting overflows of energy into the body, if one keeps pushing forward while ignoring the warning signs.

But, for the most part, sitting in prayerful attentiveness, turning to God with a sacred word, phrase or gesture when one begins to get caught up in a distraction -- that's OK. Just, please, everyone, do not reject consolations when they are given, or thoughts through which God is speaking. Those experiences do us good.”

Actually, being elderly, I’m very free and relaxed about the “letter of the law”, and I do appreciate and hopefully heed warning signposts. And I do happily sink into a consolation. Discernment of spirits is so important as the evil one can mimic most anything to disrupt prayer and give false direction. One way I learned to tell the difference is if a spontaneous desire wells up within me to praise God, then I know it is not from the enemy. If the “consolation” or good thought is cold and flat. it is usually from the enemy and not to be acted upon. I cannot conjure the bubbling up of praise from within, which then flows out through the top of my being.

In the Charismatic renewal I often prayed for discernment of spirits and the charism just pops up at times, and sometimes confirms what I must do when I would rather not. Other times I must use the rational pro and con process. ----.I hope what I am sharing encourages others to pray for this grace. These are deceptive times.

Regarding Divine Union....

The following definitions are from the Glossary in the book "Invitation To Love" by Thomas Keating.

Divine Union a term describing either a single experience of the union of all the faculties in God, or the permanent state of union called transforming union (see transforming union).

Transformation (Transforming Union) the stable sharing by all dimensions of the human person in God's life and loving presence, rather than a particular experience or set of experiences; a restructuring of consciousness in which the divine reality is perceived to be present in oneself and in all that is.


So, we're talking about a restructuring of consciousness which changes perceptions......This again can be found in Scripture....'to see as you see'.....

bj

"Tell all the Truth but tell it slant--
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise
As Lightening to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind----"
Emily Dickinson

In the 2005 thread on Centering Prayer, there is a mention of kataphatic vs apophatic prayer. I think the above poem best describes kataphatic prayer. Through symbol, kataphatic prayer brings us to an awareness of the Presence of God. Apophatic prayer, on the other hand, allows us a less circuitous route. It brings us directly to the edge of unknowing and Mystery. While the kataphatic easily brings us to familiar concepts and images, the apophatic brings us to the Mystery and a sense of deep humility in the face of its blinding Light. Centering Prayer does not discount the abundance of kataphatic prayer but completes it with a recognition of another aspect of this Mysterious "blinding" Light. It takes us to the edge of our growth and development and
and, then, takes us a little further. Rather than confuse, it broadens and surprises. Are all people called to contemplation? Are all people called to grow and develop? It's in the recognition of a Loving Presence that people grow and develop best. Centering Prayer helps those who are so inclined to open to this Presence.

bj

Hi BJ. That's a nice poem by Emily Dickinson and I think a good way to relate kataphatic and apophatic prayer.

We have a discussion thread going on Apophatic Christian spirituality that you might enjoy reading sometime.
- https://shalomplace.org/eve/for.../18910625/m/76110806

quote:

It's in the recognition of a Loving Presence that people grow and develop best.

That's nice!

For CP fans, here is a new interview with Fr. Keating, published just a couple of days ago:

Derek,

Thank you so much!

bj

I love the non duality of his thinking, the paradox he perceives at the heart of reality...God experiencing Himself in humans, yet once a thing is created it is not God...God is infinitely One, yet infinitely diverse.

His focus on a process towards evolutionary wholeness and the potential for things to get better is also very positive.

I also like the beeny hats he wears...

Thanks, Derek. The video is almost 2 hrs. long, so it will take me awhile to go through it all. I listened to a few minutes and got a sense of his process-oriented theological perspective, which I like very much (having been enamored of Teilhard de Chardin, Whitehead and Hartshorn for many years now). It almost sounded like he was saying the ultimacies no longer apply in relation to God (omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, etc.), and I would take issue with that. Process theology doesn't do away with those terms, it just qualifies them in terms of an evolutionary universe. E.g.,
- omniscience - God always knows all that can be known
- omnipresence - God's presence extends to every aspect and dimension of the cosmos
- omnipotent - God's power ultimately constrains what is and is not permitted in the universe; God's usual manner of exerting power is through loving influence.

Essentialists did have a different way of talking about these attributes of God in the context of their more static universe, but the attributes still apply. If they did not, then God would not be God.

I will listen some more as time permits.

My first time here so I don't know how this will go...
I've been reading ShalomPlace for years and have gotten a lot of help from what people have said here. The Daily Spiritual Seed is also very helpful.
My problem with Centering Prayer is emotional, and I'm wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar and so am putting this out here.
For years I was part of a church that I loved. Then the leadership became contemplative, and I didn't follow, and ended up leaving that church. Mostly because I perceived a switch of emphasis from worship of our common Creator (something anyone can do) to a rejoicing, enjoying, revelling in a new technique, method, "thing" ie the practice of contemplative prayer - something that isn't quite as clear to all alike. I believe I perceived an accompanying decrease in the notion of "I and Thou" with God as the Person who made us and sustains us. I have a lot of pain and anger accompanying all this. I feel angry that I can't be part of this body whole heartedly and wholemindedly anymore, because I felt connected to them. I feel angry that people consider themselves wise (C. Bourgeault and the School of Wisdom are big) while I am meanwhile perceiving them as having lost the essence of wisdom - childlike faith in the Abba of us all.
Also an imbalance giving more weight to the apophatic than the kataphatic, to the feminine than the masculine, to the introverted than the extroverted, to the political left than the political right, to the receptive than the active principles of life. All these seem to be unacknowledged aspects of one big general switch to the contemplative way of being Christian.
Just thought I'd put this out there. With gratefulness for the discussions I've been reading all these years.
p.s I love the Emily Dickinson poem.

Hi skylpod,

Welcome to Shalom Place (even as you've been here for years) .

Glad to hear that you've benefitted from our discussions. That's really wonderful!

There's a lot to what you've posted above. I can see how you'd feel let down by the switch at your church. Seems like you discerned God was calling you to leave.

It's too bad that the contemplative dimension of prayer was not integrated and balanced at your former church. Those opposites you list (e.g., active vs. passive, masculine vs. feminine, etc.) don't have to be skewed. A church can do both/and kinds of teachings and ministry rather than either/or.

I'm studying St. Teresa of Avila in my Carmelite formation class, and I can very much resonate with something she wrote of this temptation towards imbalance. She spoke of the impulse to remain in quiet, solitude, passive prayer. However, she discerns that the will of God for her is to move into work too. Contemplative prayer is a kind of fuel for ministry and right living.

Of course the opposite focus can also lead be an obstacle to intimacy with God. For instance, I was involved in healing prayer ministry for a while when I was at Vineyard Church. I was coming out of a healing prayer class one night when suddenly, the Lord spoke to me:

If you're going to pray in My Name, you need to know Who I am!"

It was a gentle but profound rebuke from God. I felt the Father was telling me I needed to go deeper in a personal intimacy with Him.

It was precisely what Jesus said to his disciples in scripture. "I never knew you!" even though they "cast out demons" and prayed in His Name. Yeeks! This freaked me out.

Within about a year or so, I was called to deeper union with God, through Carmelite spirituality, the Roman Catholic Church and through deeper character transformation. And through all that, I was called to deeper surrender to God's Will. And through all that, more work than I ever wanted.

Being in God, knowing Him deeply and doing His work are inseparable. It is like a mutually feeding loop. One without the other seems to lead to imbalance, at least for most people. And there are seasons wherein withdrawal and silence are necessary to know God's will for our lives, which is the highest Christian walk.

About your anger, however, that seems to be the 'first order of business' for you. You probably already know this, but you need to deal with that first. Whatever bitterness or resentment or contempt is there in reaction to your old church will harm you, as I'm sure you know. So, please get help with forgiveness in this area if you need it.

Blessings and peace be with you,
Shasha

Welcome skylpod. Glad you stepped out of "lurkdom" to share some of your concerns about how contemplative spirituality is being practiced in your church.

quote:

My problem with Centering Prayer is emotional, and I'm wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar and so am putting this out here.

From the rest of what you shared, it seems your issues are also about theological and liturgical emphases, especially a tipping of balance, as Shasha noted. Could you share a bit more about what goes on in a worship service? I think it would be odd to use CP or some other contemplative practice as the primary liturgical form for Sunday worship because, for one thing, it's not really liturgical prayer. Fr. Keating has never advocated anything like this, to my knowledge, so I suspect the shift in emphasis is more from your local ministry leadership.

Hi All,

The poem can be found on page 28 of the Winter 2011-2012 issue of Parabola. It's part of an article written by Bro. Paul Quenon, who entered Gethsemani in 1958, titled, "In Praise of the Useless Life: Prayer as Creativity and Play." In it, he also defines contemplation as "a mind and heart engaged in the highest potential they were created for." (p. 26)

bj

OK, I'm giving up on that interview with Fr. Keating posted by Derek above, even though I'm only 35 min. into it. For one thing, I'm put off by the leading questions of the interviewer, and his ignoring it when TK waxes eloquently about the Trinity, grace, and other uniquely Christian themes.

Mostly, I'm hearing the same things from Fr. T that have bothered me in some of his writings for some time. Around 34:30, he speaks of our deepest level of consciousness being God, then goes on in the next minute or so to say how we need to pay attention to science for it is "giving us up-to-date information on who God is . . . new cosmology . . . everything is interconnected . . . "

Well . . . umm . . . that's just all too poorly nuanced. To my understanding, the consciousness of God is not the deepest level of our human consciousness. Maybe I'm misunderstanding him here, but that's what I've understood him to be saying in some of his writings as well. My problem with this is that it places God's presence deep in the unconscious, and it also suggests that we can somehow access this level through our meditation (letting the dust settle, as he put it). That's not how Christianity has understood the communication of God to us via the grace of the Spirit.

Also, science does not give us new information about God. The interdependence science described is nothing new; we were learning about that when I took ecology classes in college in the 1960s, and even then it was old hat. You might say I was, conceptually, a nondual thinker about how creatures are connected way back then. But that doesn't say anything about God, nor does it imply a need for a wholesale revision of how we should talk about God. I'm hearing this again and again from Christian spiritual teachers these days, and I wonder what they're getting at? How does this change our understanding of who God is or the character of God? Someone explain, please.

".....even though I'm only 35 min. into it......."

Phil, I am wondering if 35 minutes is a sufficient time period to use in order to make a valid critique of a 2 hour interview.

"Mostly, I'm hearing the same things from Fr. T that have bothered me in some of his writings for some time."

Have you considered bringing up these issues directly with Fr. T? Also, Fr. Arico has a specific area in the newsletter where he responds to issues about Centering Prayer.

I would think Fr. T could best explain his own thinking.



"... My problem with this is that it places God's presence deep in the unconscious, and it also suggests that we can somehow access this level through our meditation (letting the dust settle, as he put it). That's not how Christianity has understood the communication of God to us via the grace of the Spirit."


I think Fr. T is simply saying that God is present all of the time but we are generally not
tuned in to an awareness of His Presence. Centering Prayer allows us time to cultivate a receptivity to an awareness of that Presence which is all around and in us.

Overall, I think the best understanding of CP comes from not analyzing it but by doing the practice.

bj