Jim, maybe not about evil so much as confusion. I mean . . . this thread is a good example! Then other one on "Evaluating centering prayer" also points out problems. The links I posted by Jim Arraj also bring up significant issues. I don't know if you've read any of those, but it would be good if you did so. It's really more complicated than people being bothered about quiet prayer.

Phil,
I've come to the conclusion, as a result of this friendly and open discussion, that I have no interest in reading more about the problems others have with Centering Prayer.

God led me to it over 30 years ago, and it's where he feeds me spiritually. I'm in His presence when I'm praying. Whether that's contemplation, prayer of quiet, or whatever, the terms don't mean much to me. It's what God does in my soul that matters. It is His will in my life that matters, not defending Centering Prayer.

Anyway, I'm glad that I could discuss the issue here, with a sense of respect and love.


Centered In Christ
Jim

quote:

I've come to the conclusion, as a result of this friendly and open discussion, that I have no interest in reading more about the problems others have with Centering Prayer.

Jim, I understand, especially that you find this form of prayer helpful or meaningful to you. Discussion and dialogue is a discipline that goes a bit further, entailing a clarification of terminology, and a willingness to listen to others' perspectives. I've found this helpful through the years, though not always easy.

Peace, Phil

BTW, going back to look at some of the links, one provided had the late Fr Pennington's response to questions on Centering Prayer. This on in particular is where I was coming from earlier in this discussion.

If Centering Prayer is a preparation for contemplation, isn't meditation a valuable preparation, as well?

Fr. Pennington; Centering Prayer is not only an opening to contemplative prayer but it is often contemplative prayer.

This is what's Centering Prayer has been for me and why CP is often referred to generically as a method of contemplative prayer.

I do understand that technically, it's understood as an opening to contemplative prayer.

However, I think once you've experienced contemplation, Centering Prayer will be considered Contemplative Prayer from a personal perspective.

Splitting hairs over whether it is or isn't contemplation, really doesn't serve any purpose and may even be a detriment for those who begin to try Centering Prayer, as doubts about what they're doing will be played out in their minds based on the arguments they've read in forums or articles, written by skeptics and opponents of the prayer method.



Jim

quote:

However, I think once you've experienced contemplation, Centering Prayer will be considered Contemplative Prayer from a personal perspective.

That doesn't make any sense to me. Substitute "prayer of simple regard" for "centering prayer" in your sentence and you'll see what I mean. St. Teresa would never say that Simple Regard is contemplation.

quote:

Splitting hairs over whether it is or isn't contemplation, really doesn't serve any purpose and may even be a detriment for those who begin to try Centering Prayer, as doubts about what they're doing will be played out in their minds based on the arguments they've read in forums or articles, written by skeptics and opponents of the prayer method.

So . . . are you trolling now? Taunting me to say again what I've written countless times?

There are no "opponents of centering prayer" on this board. In fact, we have another thread on "why do centering prayer?" with some very positive things to say about it.
- see https://shalomplace.org/eve/for...8910625/m/2014029038

Since you have such a lowly opinion of dialogue about contemplative spirituality (expressed in other posts as well), I'm wondering why you choose to participate in this discussion? Whatever your response, you have certainly demonstrated the "muddle" perpetrated by many who teach and/or practice CP regularly.

In St. Teresa's The Way of Perfection p. 512 --


A Prayer of Quiet-- A form of prayer that we cannot procure through our own efforts...beginning stage of contemplation...sometimes the will is held [by God]

Now contrast this to:

Prayer of Recollection-- A method of prayer in which the soul collects its faculties and enters within to be with its God...This recollection is not something supernatural, but something we can achieve ourselves with the help of God.

As I read CP, CP is not very different from Recollection or Prayer of Simple Regard, as Phil notes.

So CPers can affirm that they are with God when they go within. Yes. There is God waiting in the silence, in the drawing back to the sacred word, etc. And CP can insist that this connection with God is with God's help, and in that sense, this quiet, still connection with God is a gift from God. Yes, it is.

But it ain't contemplation as defined by St. Teresa. Contemplative graces are gifts on an entirely different scale. I wouldn't call it hair-splitting. With contemplative graces, you can't make them start and stop when you want, as you can start and stop CP or recollection or reciting the "Our Father" or the rosary. Your will is engaged in these practices. You turn your attention to God, and He honors your intention to be with Him. So there He is, to an extent, in everything YOU DO. YOU practice returning to the sacred word. YOU 'train' your mind to settle down in CP.

In contemplative graces, no, you are acted UPON by GOD. Your very will is suspended by God. And in deeper contemplation, all your faculties are held by God (as I understand the Carmelites).

I don't see people bashing CP here, Jim. We are trying to talk about and discriminate amongst some deeply subjective (and ineffalbe) experiences.

So calling CP contemplation is not right. The differences need to be honored.

It doesn't matter how clearly you try to explain yourself, Shasha, or what links you post. For Jim and so many other CP practitioners, this is all irrelevant. Their use of terminology is loose and often idiosyncratic, but they don't much care about that, either.

I've spent way too much time trying to dialogue with people about all this. If one doesn't see the importance of this kind of discussion, then so be it.

Meanwhile, for those who are interested:
- https://shalomplace.org/eve/for...?r=35010585#35010585
- https://shalomplace.org/eve/for...8910625/m/2014029038
- http://www.innerexplorations.c...htm#Thomas%20Keating
- http://www.innerexplorations.c...3:_Centering_Prayer_

quote:

Contemplative graces are gifts on an entirely different scale. You can't make them start and stop when you want, as you can with CP or recollection or reciting the "Our Father" or the rosary. Your will is engaged in these practices. You turn your attention to God, and He honors your intention to be with Him. So there He is, to an extent, in everything YOU DO. YOU practice returning to the sacred word. YOU 'train' your mind to settle down in CP.

Sometimes the sacred word or more discursive forms of prayer feel entirely graced, however, as if breathed by God. The Spirit takes hold and prays in thought and it feels as deeply infused as the prayer of quiet. The will is taken over, the mind is activated by God, the sacred word feels like a fire in the mind and, rather than lead one into silent prayer, or act as a simple vehicle for something quieter, can kindle the spirit with Divine light each time it is repeated. It's like God Himself utters the word. I'm no expert on CP but this is an frequent experience of word or thought in prayer for me. It feels entirely contemplative.

Phil,
I'm not trolling, and some how you've gotten that impression and seem to be upset.

My apologies, it's obviously my own lack of communication skills causing the problem.

Please let me try to explain myself for the final time.

I shared my experience with Centering Prayer and what it means to me, according how I understand it.

After all, that's what the B.Joyfull asked in her post when opening this thread, so I shared.

You pointed out terms which I used and provided the correct definition. I agreed and will be more careful in such discussions in the future.

However. the point I was making in my last post which I quoted Fr Pennington, merely reflects my own experience with Centering Prayer. For me, and apparently to Fr Pennington, Centering Prayer, can not only lead to Contemplative prayer, but is often contemplative Prayer as well.

This is my experience and I certainly don't intend to upset you or anyone else.




Jim

Righto, Stephen (samson). But we are not talking about grace. Kataphatic (discursive) prayers can indeed be graced, which is a point I have made many times. Obviously, that would be true about CP as well, then. But the encounter with God through such kataphatic means is not infused contemplation.

- - -

Jim, not a problem. I was reacting more to:

quote:

Splitting hairs over whether it is or isn't contemplation, really doesn't serve any purpose and may even be a detriment for those who begin to try Centering Prayer, as doubts about what they're doing will be played out in their minds based on the arguments they've read in forums or articles, written by skeptics and opponents of the prayer method.

I don't get this point. Why should a discussion about CP create doubts about what people are doing if the purpose of the discussion is to clarify what CP is actually doing? And "splitting hairs whether it is or isn't contemplation" is very important if one is interested in understanding what we mean by "contemplation." Is it:
a. A state wherein I have no thoughts?
b. A state wherein I rest in the "center of my being," present to God.
c. A state wherein I rest in the awareness of God's love, howsoever obscure that might be?
d. All of the above?
e. None of the above?
f. a and b
g. a and c (but wait: awareness of God's love is a "thought," and so we return to the sacred word to practice "pure faith")
h. b and c (same objection as g)

My answer is c, and c alone. I read STA and SJOC as saying the same.

Some CP teachers and writers would go along with every option but c and e.

-----

Also:
1. Is contemplation a coming to an awareness of a union with God that I already possess in the center of my being (by virtue of receiving existence from God)? Am I already a contemplative even if I don't experience contemplation?

or,

2. Is contemplation a coming to awareness of a grace extended by God from the center of my being to wherever my awareness happens to be, inviting rest and repose in God's love just as I am, and whether I have thoughts or not?

I read STA and SJOC as saying #2 and a strong consensus of CP teaching saying #1.

So, Jim, if you think this is "splitting hairs" and "really doesn't serve any purpose," then so be it. I believe these kinds of distinctions are important for a large number of reasons. Maybe you should take some time to read Jim Arraj's book, From St. John of the Cross to Us, to understand some of the reasons why it's important.

Of course, if you like doing CP and that's all you want to say, then that's fine. I get that.

Another consideration, related to the above:

Is the obstacle to one's union with God:

a. woundings from early childhood that have been repressed, thus blocking the light and love of God shining forth from the center of our being (and dismantled by the Spirit through CP practice via the unloading of the unconscious)?

or

b. my selfishness/sinfulness, arrogance and pride, all of which are worn away through the practice of virtue, love, and ongoing surrender to God through faith?

Catholic tradition would say b., without denying that our brokenness can contribute to selfishness. But our brokenness can also lead to humility and recognition of our need for God. God does not require that we become whole or cleansed of repressed material to experience union.

"A humble, contrite heart, O Lord, you will not spurn." (Ps. 51:17)

The following are definitions found in the Glossary of Terms following "Open Mind, Open Heart."

Centering Prayer-a contemporary form of prayer of the heart, prayer of simplicity, prayer of faith, prayer of simple regard; a method of reducing the obstacles to the gift of contemplative prayer and of facilitating the development of habits conducive to responding to the inspirations of the Spirit. (p. 123)

Contemplative prayer-the development of one's relationship with Christ to the point of communing beyond words, thoughts, feelings, and the multiplication of particular acts; a process moving from the simplified activity of waiting upon God to the ever-increasing predominance of the Gifts of the Spirit as the source of one's prayer. (p. 124)


Method of contemplative prayer-any prayer practice that spontaneously evolves or is deliberately designed to free the mind of excessive dependence on thinking to go to God.

a. Practices spontaneously evolving toward contemplation--lectio divina, the Jesus Prayer, Veneration of Icons, the Rosary, and most other traditional devotions rightly used.

b. Practices deliberately designed to facilitate contemplation--

1. Concentrative-the Jesus Prayer, mantric practice (constant repetition of a word or phrase), Dom John Main's method of contemplative prayer.

2. Receptive--Centering Prayer, prayer of faith, prayer of the heart, prayer of simplicity, prayer of silence, prayer of simple regard, active recollection, acquired contemplation.

c. On a scale of 1 to 10, some practices are more
concentrative, others more receptive. (p. 124-125.)

Contemplation-a synonym for contemplative prayer.
(p.123)

Mystical prayer-a synonym for contemplative prayer.(p. 125)

Thoughts-in the context of the specific method of Centering Prayer, an umbrella term for any perception at all, including sense perceptions, feelings, images, memories, reflections, commentaries, and particular spiritual perceptions. (p. 125)

My understanding is that the above definitions are the way the terms are used in the book.

Hope this helps.

bj

Phil:

quote:

I don't get this point. Why should a discussion about CP create doubts about what people are doing if the purpose of the discussion is to clarify what CP is actually doing? And "splitting hairs whether it is or isn't contemplation" is very important if one is interested in understanding what we mean by "contemplation."

The debate can become a distraction for a person who decides to try Centering Prayer.

quote:

Is it:
a. A state wherein I have no thoughts?
b. A state wherein I rest in the "center of my being," present to God.
c. A state wherein I rest in the awareness of God's love, howsoever obscure that might be?
d. All of the above?
e. None of the above?
f. a and b
g. a and c (but wait: awareness of God's love is a "thought," and so we return to the sacred word to practice "pure faith")
h. b and c (same objection as g)

My answer is c, and c alone. I read STA and SJOC as saying the same. [/qoute]

Depends on what you mean by awareness.

For me, it's the experience of God's love. A person can be aware of God's love, without experiencing it and that
would be a difference.

I would exclude a. completely. Thoughts are not eliminated during CP and it's impossible to do so, nor is there an
attempt to do so. We learn to become aware of the thoughts that come into our consciousness and let merely them go.

[qoute]
Some CP teachers and writers would go along with every option but c and e.

I don't know. I've only know the Trappists and a couple other priests who teach Centering Prayer. I think they would
be reluctant to categorize anything about it, but I can't speak for anyone other than myself.

quote:

Also:
1. Is contemplation a coming to an awareness of a union with God that I already possess in the center of my being (by virtue of receiving existence from God)? Am I already a contemplative even if I don't experience contemplation?

or,

2. Is contemplation a coming to awareness of a grace extended by God from the center of my being to wherever my awareness happens to be, inviting rest and repose in God's love just as I am, and whether I have thoughts or not?

I can't agree with #1, maybe #2. However, Contemplation to me is the experience of God's presence within, which is an experience of divine love.

As the author of the Cloud of Unknowing wrote, "God can not be grasped, except through love."

quote:

So, Jim, if you think this is "splitting hairs" and "really doesn't serve any purpose," then so be it. I believe these kinds of distinctions are important for a large number of reasons. Maybe you should take some time to read Jim Arraj's book, From St. John of the Cross to Us, to understand some of the reasons why it's important./quote]

Getting in the technicalities may be fine, but I didn't see this thread as being for that purpose. People who practice Centering Prayer, were asked to share their experience. I shared and was questioned on terminology. Fine, I've learned something but I think more was lost in the discussion than gained.



[quote]
Of course, if you like doing CP and that's all you want to say, then that's fine. I get that.

God has blessed me through Centering Prayer. For those who are seeking a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ, it
is a method of prayer with a rich tradition in Christianity and I highly recommend adding it to your current methods
of prayer. I would never recommend anyone exclude other methods. Once a person has experienced contemplation, all methods
of prayer become deeper.

Lastly, if you feel called to begin Centering Prayer, just do it and let God do the rest.

Nothing myself or anyone else can say will be your experience, which can only come from God.



Jim

For anyone who wants to read more about Centering Prayer, the following books will be helpful:

"Open Mind, Open Heart" by Thomas Keating

"Invitation to Love" by Thomas Keating

"The Mystery of Christ" by Thomas Keating

These three books may be purchased individually or as a trilogy, "Foundations for Centering Prayer and the Christian Contemplative Life."

Just two more quotes from "Guidelines for Christian Life, Growth and Transformation." (OM, OH)........

1. The fundamental goodness of human nature, like the mystery of the Trinity, Grace, and the Incarnation, is an essential element of Christian faith. This basic core of goodness is capable of unlimited development; indeed, of becoming transformed into Christ and deified. (p. 108)

and....

26. Contemplative prayer, in the traditional sense of the term, is the dynamic that initiates,
accompanies and brings the process of transformation to completion. (p. 111)

...............................................

Is it possible to really experience a symphony just by reading the notes from a sheet of music?
There are some things you just need to do over linear time in order to even be able to formulate appropriate questions about them. Otherwise, format replaces substance. The inappropriate questions generate a needless tedium of misinformation. Mechanical reductionism replaces
depth and dimension.

At some point in time, one must surrender to the guidance of God in regards to the appropriate individual prayer practice. If CP is not for you, don't do it. There are plenty of other prayer practices available.

However, for those who are interested in a Centering Prayer practice, it's a wonderful way to develop a relationship with the Living Christ.

bj

BJ, in the glossary you cite, CP is said to be "a method of reducing the obstacles to the gift of contemplative prayer."

OK. But what are these supposed obstacles?

Then, Contemplative prayer-the development of one's relationship with Christ to the point of communing beyond words, thoughts, feelings, and the multiplication of particular acts. . ..

That's OK.

Then: Method of contemplative prayer-any prayer practice that spontaneously evolves or is deliberately designed to free the mind of excessive dependence on thinking to go to God.

So, here, contemplative prayer has a method?

Do you see a conflict between calling contemplative prayer something that can be a method and calling it a communing beyond words?

Let's see if Open Mind, Open Heart can resolve this for us:

quote:

What is the essence of contemplative prayer? The way of pure faith. Nothing else. You do not have to feel it, but you have to practice it. p. 11

So in this, the stock resource on centering prayer, we are told that contemplative prayer is something we practice but do not feel and this is the way of pure faith.

Okey dokey!

And:

quote:

I am convinced that it is a mistake to identify the experience of contemplative prayer with contemplative prayer itself, which transcends any impression of God's radiating or inflowing presence. p. 10-11

So what does contemplation mean if it is not something one actually experiences?

Do you see a problem here?

Phil,

Thanks for taking the time to attend to this
issue with such detail. In order for CP to continue to withstand the test of time, it must be able to stand the scrutiny of thinkers.

As I read over the original link you suggested to me, I saw that you expressed concern for the articulation of CP by some of the teachers. I think this concern is valid. As CP evolves and grows in acceptance, I think the articulation of it will grow and be refined. I think it's all part of a process.

.................................................

"So what does contemplation mean if it is not something one actually experiences?"
-------------------------------------------------
If you continue to read beyond that quote, Fr. Thomas talks about Ruth Burroughs, a Carmelite nun who "has lived her religious life without any experiential awareness of the radiance of God's presence." He goes on to say that "This would explain how, for many persons, their whole contemplative journey is completely hidden from them until their final transformation." (OM, OH, p 14, trilogy) He talks about both nuns ending up in a state of transforming union although one "never enjoyed any conscious experience of contemplative prayer" even though she had practiced the discipline of contemplative prayer for forty years. (p.14)

Do you see how the term "contemplative prayer" is being used in two different ways again? First it is being used to designate an experience. Second, it is being used to designate a prayer discipline. So, we're not talking about an issue with CP itself. We're talking about an issue with language. The quotes need to be put in their larger proper context or the correct understanding of them is lost.
-------------------------------------------------
Do you see a problem here?

-------------------------------------------------

Yes, I see a problem with language, with format, but not with substance.


Also, somewhere in this thread, Jim said he was a follower of Thomas Keating. As I know it, Thomas Keating has no followers. He's not a guru. He's a monk. He's human, and, like any of us, is subject to correction in matters of linguistics, among other things. I think that to say one is a follower of him (Keating) is doing him a great disservice and exhibits a lack of understanding of the Centering Prayer process.

bj

BJ

quote:

Also, somewhere in this thread, Jim said he was a follower of Thomas Keating. As I know it, Thomas Keating has no followers. He's not a guru. He's a monk. He's human, and, like any of us, is subject to correction in matters of linguistics, among other things. I think that to say one is a follower of him (Keating) is doing him a great disservice and exhibits a lack of understanding of the Centering Prayer process.

What I said is that I follow the method of Centering Prayer as taught by Fr Keating.

A priest who attended Fr Keating's retreats at St. Joseph's Abbey, back in the 70's, taught me Centering Prayer. I also read some of Fr Keating's books, the three volume set you mentioned, being one of them.

There are others who teach Centering Prayer where they use the Sacred Prayer word as a mantra. Some of these people who were once practitioners of TM, but now do Centering Prayer, use words in their experience that make it seem like it's an Eastern form of meditation to more traditional Catholics.

This is different than what Fr Keating teaches, which is why I make the distinction.


Jim

quote:

Originally posted by B.JoyFull:
...

"So what does contemplation mean if it is not something one actually experiences?"
-------------------------------------------------
If you continue to read beyond that quote, Fr. Thomas talks about Ruth Burroughs, a Carmelite nun who "has lived her religious life without any experiential awareness of the radiance of God's presence." He goes on to say that "This would explain how, for many persons, their whole contemplative journey is completely hidden from them until their final transformation." (OM, OH, p 14, trilogy) He talks about both nuns ending up in a state of transforming union although one "never enjoyed any conscious experience of contemplative prayer" even though she had practiced the discipline of contemplative prayer for forty years. (p.14)
...

I'm a little puzzled here. If Centering Prayer may or may not be a felt experience, that's so vague as to be nearly meaningless. What is the substance of Centering Prayer then, if it can be anything. Maybe I'm not following your point.

Also, the fact that a nun reaching transforming union after years of hidden contemplative prayer, as a method, does not mean it was her discrete practice of that prayer method that caused her transforming union. At least, I'm not seeing a necessary, direct correlation. The other aspects of her structured monastic living, purgation, determination, etc. may be have been as much or more preparations for her union with God. But maybe the author had personal insight into that.

(BTW, I don't think one needs a 'quiet mind' at all to receive God's gifts of intimacy but a pure heart. One can experience, by surprise, union with God in a busy subway munching on Doritoes and thinking of the pile of laundry in their basement. )

I bet Phil and other spiritual directors who work with mature Christians could speak to this, but I would guess that most people who enjoy contemplative graces DO NOT practice Centering Prayer. And even more likely, I'd venture to guess that most people who practice CP do not enjoy infused contemplation (as defined by the Carmelite Saints).

This isn't in any way meant to diminish the great good God gives to CP practitioners, as has already been affirmed many times. I like Fr. Keating's book, "Open Mind, Open Heart." I actually recommend it to some of my psychotherapy patients who are restless and searching for God exteriorly only. It gives them a structure, language, and permission to find God interiorly. Centering Prayer is also useful for folks who need to grow in a capacity to self-soothe.

But, I don't think God's mystical intimacy can be 'commodified' in the way that some Centering Prayer stuff seems to suggest...maybe that's too crude a word.

I am recalling St. Teresa's comment in the Way of Perfection where she says something like: Who would dare even ask God for the Prayer of Quiet? I'll have to pull it out...She really understood the Holy fear of God like Jesus who said "You don't know what you're asking for."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shasha,

quote:

Yes, I see a problem with language, with format, but not with substance.

Ah, BJ, you're sounding more and more like a sophist! (Actually, I have no idea what your sentence means.)

If you check out the link by Arraj that I've posted 10,000 times or more now, you'll see that he has a section on Ruth Burroghs. Jim was not impressed!

It's really problemmatic to speak of contemplation as a non-experience -- makes the whole idea meaningless, really, as Shasha noted.

I took some time to read through parts of my first edition copy of Open Mind, Open Heart, and think the first chapter is quite revealing. It seems that Fr. Keating's hope was to "democratize" contemplative prayer via the practice of CP. He was concerned about the many monks and other serious pray-ers who never experienced infused contemplation as described by STA and SJOC, and, further, he wanted to incorporate modern psychology and evolutionary stage-thinkers like Ken Wilber in his presentation of contemplative prayer, spirituality, and stages of growth. The problem is that his re-formulation of contemplative prayer strains in places to connect with the traditional understanding.

Teresa and John were aware that a majority of their sisters and brothers did not experience contemplation, which must be a huge disappointment for someone committed to a contemplative order. Their response was simply to accept that that's the way things were, and that if one did not experience it, then one was to live a life of faith and love and pray as best one can. They did not change their teaching on contemplation to make it more inclusive, which is what it seems Fr. Keating has done.

My concern in all this is not simply academic. As a spiritual director, I've had a number of directees through the years who were CP practitioners. Some, as I've already noted, got along well with it. I've had a few, however, who were having some very tough times with energy stuff, kriyas, and the like, and pressed on, thinking this was all part of the "unloading," and, at any rate, all that stuff constituted "thoughts" to be ignored in their CP prayer time. Naturally, this made things only worse for them, but, being very committed and disciplined folk, they stuck with it, hoping that the divine therapist would finish up one day and they'd be at the bottom, in the center, living in perpetual union with God.

Part of my discernment in all this has been whether all this unloading is the working of the Spirit or a natural consequence of CP practice (whether directed to God or not). It could be both, of course, but I suspect that anyone who sits quietly and uses any kind of word as a way of disentangling from "thoughts" will weaken the defenses of the unconscious and things will start coming up.

One gentleman was greatly relieved when I told him he didn't really have to do CP if he didn't want to. His passion was to come to union with God, and when I told him CP wasn't the only route to union, but that other forms of prayer might work better for him, he decided to give it a try. He continued with CP, but not as much, and began to do other forms of prayer as well. My counsel was also not to be so focused on "union with God," but "being here now in love," which is a little more practical. He found it all helpful and seems happier and even closer to God.

St. Frances de Sales wrote that we learn to pray by praying, and another Saint said that we are to "pray as we pray." CP is a form of prayer best suited for people in acquired or habitual recollection, and even then it is not the only prayer that can sustain and deepen recollection. It is also true that one can use other forms of prayer and receive infused contemplation, if God so chooses to grant such a mystical grace.

- - -

And now I will be taking a break from this discussion for awhile, as I'm repeating myself again and again, and we have Winter Storm Rocky bearing down on Wichita during the next two days. We're expecting 12-18" snow on top of the 14" Winter Storm Q dropped on us last week. This is most unusual for Wichita. We get a few snows a year and handle it just fine, but this is a whole other level.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
...
Teresa and John were aware that a majority of their sisters and brothers did not experience contemplation, which must be a huge disappointment for someone committed to a contemplative order. Their response was simply to accept that that's the way things were, and that if one did not experience it, then one was to live a life of faith and love and pray as best one can. They did not change their teaching on contemplation to make it more inclusive, which is what it seems Fr. Keating has done. ...

This makes sense to me.

Anyway, have a peaceful snow-in.
Bless you and your family.

"What I said is that I follow the method of Centering Prayer as taught by Fr Keating."

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. I stand corrected. I went back and read the original post. You were discussing forms of CP taught by Fr. Thomas and Fr. Manning. The phrase I focused on was "Not so with Fr. Keating, whom I follow...." Sorry!

When I began the CP thread, I had no idea CP was such a controversial issue. I thought I would hear some sharing of informal stories with fellow practitioners. That definitely is not what is happening.

The other issue I've had with some of your posts are the occasional spelling errors. I'm not trying to be critical and I don't expect perfection. I know that we all have errors at one time or another in our posts. It's just that the errors set my thoughts off on a tangent. Thanks for being patient with me.

The interest that I do share with you is a love of Centering Prayer as taught by Fr. Thomas. Thanks for sharing so much about it on this thread.

bj

"I'm a little puzzled here. If Centering Prayer may or may not be a felt experience, that's so vague as to be nearly meaningless. What is the substance of Centering Prayer then, if it can be anything. Maybe I'm not following your point."


Sasha, I am only going to speak for myself.
For me, the substance of Centering Prayer is receptivity and surrender. In those dispositions, Trust in God is renewed and increased. We are made aware through experience that we are not alone.

"Also, the fact that a nun reaching transforming union after years of hidden contemplative prayer, as a method, does not mean it was her discrete practice of that prayer method that caused her transforming union. At least, I'm not seeing a necessary, direct correlation. The other aspects of her structured monastic living, purgation, determination, etc. may be have been as much or more preparations for her union with God. But maybe the author had personal insight into that."

Agreed. I don't think a correlation has to be drawn. However, on the other hand, I don't think
a correlation has to be ruled out either.

"(BTW, I don't think one needs a 'quiet mind' at all to receive God's gifts of intimacy but a pure heart. One can experience, by surprise, union with God in a busy subway munching on Doritoes and thinking of the pile of laundry in their basement. )"

Amen!


"But, I don't think God's mystical intimacy can be 'commodified' in the way that some Centering Prayer stuff seems to suggest...maybe that's too crude a word."

I don't think CP is packaging and selling mystical intimacy. I think CP makes one aware of
the possibilities for each of us. That is quite different from saying those possibilities will be realized. God determines that. However, isn't it nice to be reminded that "we are capable of unlimited development; indeed, of becoming transformed into Christ and deified?" (OM, OH, p. 108)....especially after listening to the evening news?

I think that we as a species are evolving and I like to think that as we become more fully human, we are also becoming more divine. If it happened a few times in the past, it can happen more often in the present and future until it could become the norm.

"I am recalling St. Teresa's comment in the Way of Perfection where she says something like: Who would dare even ask God for the Prayer of Quiet? I'll have to pull it out...She really understood the Holy fear of God like Jesus who said "You don't know what you're asking for."

St. Teresa was great for her day and time. However, I think it's time for a contemporary
articulation of prayer in light of new findings in psychology. There is a need for the integration of the past and present. St. Teresa and SJOC provided us with a sound basis. It's time to integrate that basis with our current knowledge and proceed from there.

Hope this clarifies my position a little.

I hadn't planned on being a defender of CP!

bj

B.joyful and Jim have asked for a sharing of personal experiences of CP. I have been faithful to this prayer about 6 years. I facilitate a group of 8 ladies all of whom choose to meet only once a month because of being active with Church ministries. We begin with reminding ourselves of our intention to “consent to the Presence and action of God within.” After the 20 min meditation, a soft Gregorian Chant brings us out of it (timed on my recorder). We pray the Our Father. Then we follow the group Lectio Divina (collatio) style using a scripture passage drawn at that time from a box of favorite selections contributed by the group. We let it conclude with any B.joyful and Jim have asked for a sharing of personal experiences of CP. I have been faithful to this prayer about 6 years. I facilitate a group of 8 ladies all of whom choose to meet only once a month because of being active with Church ministries. We begin with reminding ourselves of our intention to “consent to the Presence and action of God within.” After the 20 min meditation, a soft Gregorian Chant brings us out of it (timed on my recorder). We pray the Our Father. Then we follow the group Lectio Divina (collatio) style using a scripture passage drawn at that time from a box of favorite selections contributed by the group. We let it conclude with any personal sharing that time allows. I very much look forward to this group prayer.

Most days I am able to personally do two 20 min.sessions, or one session of that and one session of Lectio Divina on the Church daily scripture. CP prayer has been very beneficial to me. I have more awareness in life. I realize all my prayer styles can give that grace; however I began to be more aware of the useless concerns that my “monkey mind” bombarded me with, things I had already been praying about and needed to trust God‘s way and time. Now I am able to silence them with my sacred word and return to God’s love in that situation. I am much more peaceful about things going wrong (or if wrong is right for my journey). The pattern of CP aids greatly in the art of “letting go” for me, which I envision as a basis of surrender.
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I was fortunate that suppressed wounds were healed through earlier involvement in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal , so I did not have anything surface in CP. I also knew not to reject any consolations in CP that I knew were from God. Also I was taught that if something kept repeating, then I might need to pay attention to it.

I am very comfortable with CP, but I don’t limit myself to it. When my father took his own life, my grief sent me directly to a private directed retreat at Grand Coteau, La. I had a truly miraculous healing while using the Prodigal Son scripture via the Ignatian prayer method. Daily Spiritual Seed by Phil often lists many prayer methods our Tradition is graced with. The Rosary meditation on the scriptures and applying them for graces for self and others is another favorite. We have 24 hour Eucharistic Adoration in our Church and my really best time is my one hour weekly commitment. I never read but just sit and allow my heart to fill with thanks. Only rarely do I pray CP there, only because I don‘t seem to need to pray, and my hour flies by.

Long ago I quit taking my spiritual temperature and also that of others. As long as I stand guard on my focus, it’s all up to God. Our thoughts are energy that is projected both inward and outward, and I want mine to be positive from the heart for my mind and body health and for the whole world. Yes, CP has been very helpful to me.

Sorry for my double dip in the first paragraph. Once posted, I did not know how to correct it. Very humbling, but maybe I'm supposed to tell you my posting problem. My hands have advanced tremor and I can only slowly one finger peck these days.
I type on a word document and then copy-paste
a section at a time. I usually do that correctly but tonight I over-copied. Thanks all for putting up with me.

quote:

St. Teresa was great for her day and time. However, I think it's time for a contemporary
articulation of prayer in light of new findings in psychology. There is a need for the integration of the past and present. St. Teresa and SJOC provided us with a sound basis. It's time to integrate that basis with our current knowledge and proceed from there.

I think this is quite important. Lots of people are coming to prayer in a very different context, and with a history of involvement in all the "stuff" of the modern world - jobs, families, breakdown, alcoholism, drugs, technology, a diversity of world views, science, psychology, sexuality - it's all going to affect the way prayer is experienced. I sometimes find Theresa and John "too pure", speaking to certain areas of my prayer life but not addressing other aspects that arise from my own spiritual history.