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Phil, well if you have time to do all that praying hardly no one else should have any excuse. :-) Thanks for sharing all that. It is helpful and I'm glad I asked. I have also been re-reading the Come Holy Spirit conference in which I participated years ago. There you wrote about how you had just started a breathing meditation. (In Discussion one I think). That was also helpful. I have read and 're-read Keatings books on C.P. I think I "get it", then I don't.. and keep going back and forth with it. When I am meditating I think I have to have a name for it.. wondering if I am doing CP "properly", or if I'm doing some other form of meditation. By the way, I don't really know what infused meditation is..? Jim.. Thanks for your comments. I appreciate it. I do see your point also. Katy | ||||
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Gee,, a lot of new comments here. I see disagreement and confusion (at least I am!) And I think that is exactly what God DOESN'T want. Think I'll stick with my "contemplative breathing". :-) Katy | ||||
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Katy, Don't be afraid of disagreement and confusion. It's all part of a much larger process. Phil, I found this quote in OM,OH: "What, then, is our principal focus in Centering Prayer! It is to deepen our relationship with Jesus Christ, the Divine-Human Being." (p. 46, trilogy) This doesn't sound much like Vedanta or Buddhism to me. Also, this quote: "In the same way, use the sacred word to move into interior silence. So long as you experience the undifferentiated, general, and loving presence of God beyond any thought, don't go back to the sacred word. You are already at your destination." (p. 45, trilogy) The sacred word is a pointer, a symbol. It's not a good idea to get too caught up in it. If you do that, you're missing the point. I keep hearing what seems to be an absolutizing of it. As I understand it, that's not the intent at all. You're missing the point. Also, Fr. Thomas does say that "Divine Union is the goal for all Christians." (p. 31, trilogy) However, in CP, we are saying to God "Here I am." (p. 33) It's receptive and surrender. We are not sitting and setting a goal that is saying I am going to get to Divine Union at all costs by this prayer. That's totally missing the point. It's more a "Here I am, Do with me as You Will." Jim, Help! Come back!  Sasha, At times, it may not seem like I'm following traditional logic but it all has a way of coming around. That's one of the reasons why I like poetry. It says something without directly saying it and draws connections that may not be seen at first glance. Also, using traditional logic in what I see as a general conversation creates a format where one person is correct and another is wrong, i.e., one is logical and one isn't and in our culture, logic is lauded. I don't like that style. It makes for winners and loosers, not dialogue partners. Logic can also be a very long and round about way to know something. Intuition can be immediate. Phil, When you start commenting on my format instead of the substance of my comments, it changes the course of the dialogue. Know that I am contributing in good faith to the best of my ability. Hope at least some of this helps..... Peace. bj | ||||
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BJ, this is a glaring straw man problem. Phil has clearly presented the issue above in his post on 2/27. You have grossly distorted his points by stringing those two sentences above! Check out the wiki definition of "straw man": A straw man...is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man I hear you saying that you prefer intuition as a means of understanding, that you like poetry better than logic. And that's OK. Being intuitive and creative is a wonderful gift. I feel I have and do value a strong intuitive streak too. There are times and places wherein it is useful in navigating through murky life circumstances. But when we enter into a rational discussion, we have to balance that out with playing be the rules of logic. Logic is not opposed to intuition when both are looking at reality. BJ, I too slip into straw man argumentation at times and other screwy thoughts. Lots of people do, particularly when they are eager to prove they have something to teach rather than humble themselves and realize they have more to learn. I hear you say at the end of your post, "Know that I'm contributing in good faith to the best of my ability." Yet, if you had taken our feedback seriously when Phil first objected to your straw man remarks, you may not have repeated it again in spades as you do repeatedly in your post above. So, I'm left with concluding that you don't really care much to correct the problem and/or you may be unconsciously enjoying being provocative. | ||||
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Shasha's right, BJ. You side-stepped the inquiry I proposed about Step 3 of the CP method, which is really the core of CP practice (the first two steps being preparatory and the 4th being the closure). There's nothing poetic or intuitive about Step 3, so it doesn't merit those kinds of considerations. See my posts from 2/26 at 10:50 a.m. and 2/27 at 10:43 a.m. The way Step 3 is presented in the light of Fr. Keating's teaching about "thoughts" raises questions for me about what he means by divine union, or contemplation. No need to reply if you don't want to address that point. As I noted earlier, you don't have to be the defender of CP out here. | |||
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Phil, I do want to address that point but I need to make a few distinctions first. I looked up "straw man". The definitions I found on the internet noted that it occurs in the context of debate--formal or informal. I had no intention of participating in a debate--formal or informal. I have been reading most of the links you suggested. (I am still working on the Arraja link.) I have also been rereading "Open Mind, Open Heart." It's been years since I read it initially. During all this reading, I am coming across responses to points that you previously proposed in other posts. These are points that I may not have responded to at the time. The point is that I didn't directly respond to them at the time because I either didn't feel well-versed enough in the written material or I planned to get back to them at a later time. I wasn't ignoring you or intentionally creating straw men. For example, in my last post, I directly addressed your concern about Vedanta or Buddhism. I wanted to make sure I didn't have a straw man. As I read over "Open Mind, Open Heart," I am finding that things are often said in a variety of different ways. I think Fr. Thomas may have been addressing different audiences or different levels of consciousness in his responses. I also think he took care to direct his responses to each specific situation. OK, now that I mentioned that, I will go on directly to your post and point #3. I can't say what Fr. Thomas is meaning to say. You have to ask him. However, I think the real goal of Centering Prayer is to bring us into this moment. That's it. This moment is where we practice our receptivity and surrender. Our whole bodies participate in this. It's not just a matter of the mind. It's involves our entire body. Fr. T mentions the BVM. She let the Word come into the world through her. Her receptivity and surrender brought Christ into the world. I also think that Fr. Thomas is referring to the aspect of God the Father that is more than a "Who is." I think he means the aspect of God the Father that is Mystery and surpasses any terms our minds may want to apply to Him. I think this is what he is calling 'emptiness.' I don't think "thought-less-ness" is being placed as a higher state than "sacred experience." I think when you start to think about the sacred experience or any experience, it is the thoughts (the mind) that start to take you away from it. Because, now, you are thinking about it and no longer purely experiencing it. There is so much more to us than our minds! Our minds have a way of reducing things in order to understand them. There are some things that can't be reduced and appropriately understood by the mind. Phil, I will think and read about this point #3 more and see if I can add anything else that might be useful. I hope I am understanding you correctly. I am trying. bj | ||||
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That's fine, B.J. No need to exhaust yourself over this. You're stating some of what Jim's already said about thoughts now. Apparently in CP teaching the assumption is that thoughts are an obstacle to experiencing God rather than a means through which God sometimes communicates with us. I think they often are, and that it hurts nothing to prayerfully remain with Godly thoughts until such time as they've done their work and then we let them go. In metaphysical terms, everything has "That-ness" or "Is-ness," so that doesn't tell us very much about a being except that "it is." Even a rock or a glass of water is "that-which-is," and so God would be the ultimate "That-Which-Is," pure Existence itself, as St. Thomas noted. But God is more; God is "I AM THAT I AM," and an "I" indicates personal, relational subjectivity. God's Who-ness is revealed as Trinity, which is mysterious enough, but also relational and personal. Somehow that aspect seems missing in Fr. Keating's short summary of the journey. It seems he's placing the perception of God as "That-Which-Is" above personal relationship with God as Trinity, and I don't see much support for that in Scripture or Tradition. His summary about leaving personal self behind, etc. parallels Bernadette Roberts' view of the journey, and it seems he was deeply influenced by her at that time in his life. | |||
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To me, the whole discussion centers around the nature of thought and its relationship to awareness or attention. I agree that God can communicate to us via thoughts, but I don't think God actually implants those thoughts in our mind. Thoughts, as in internal dialogue, are generated by us, as a "top down" response to something occuring either at a deeper level, such as holy inspiration from God, or from the "bottom up," such as when we receive information from a sensory level. The "thought-generating" part of ourselves seems to be somewhat of an intermediary between different parts of the self: encapsulating and conceptualizing pure experience and turning it into a lower form of knowledge that more of the self can understand and communicate to others, as well as, e.g. in the case of lectio divina, elevating the mind from the sensory to bring it into a "higher" and more "pure" state of awareness. God communicates however He wants, through nature and people, as well as through direct inspiration and communion. It does seem somewhat audacious for us to tell God that he needs to speak to us via a particular method (if that's what we're doing), but on the other hand, we know God loves us and is always looking for any way possible to establish a closer relationship with us. If we open ourselves up to him by intending such, and then sit as quietly as possible for long periods of time, I can't see how that could be bad. | ||||
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Nice reflections, Paul. Thanks for chiming in. | |||
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Phil, Stated this way i understand clearer what you have been saying. You also mentioned, in your very generous sharing of your own prayer life, about not turning away from consolations from God during prayer. And that you ask the Holy Spirit to teach you how to pray. To me this is the most intimate form of prayer. Asking God himself to teach you how to pray in a manner that God wishes you to pray. That may not be to same way to pray from day to day. It would seem to me that for this to happen one must to sensitive to how God is instructing them. There is a relationship there. To not pray this way would seem to turn away from intimacy & guidance from God. God is trying to say something to one in thoughts, feelings, emotions, sometimes visions ect. And if i understand CP correctly it is a prayer technique that was developed to take one to a place of emptiness of all these things. The belief being that this is a superior/deeper experience of God. There is an emptiness that is different from the kind of emptiness i believe CP is guiding one towards. For those promoting CP please tell me if your experience of God as emptiness is a Holy & Sacred experience that fills your whole being with the presence of God in that emptiness. This will assist me greatly in understanding which experience of emptiness CP is guiding one towards. There is something else, as i had done a silent prayer similar to SP for many years. But my focus was always on relationship with the Trinity. If one continues to push away the personal relationship with God in one's thoughts, feelings, emotions, ect. the end experience may be very different. And the question then becomes, as i have heard Phil ask, is that end result what Christianity is all about. | ||||
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All good points, Mary Sue. There are different kinds of inner silence and emptiness, and they aren't all experiences of contemplation. I agree that it's best to bring a little more flexibility to one's time of prayer or else one actually ends up limiting how one is willing to relate to God and how one allows God to relate to you. - - - BJ, you're clear in sharing what CP means to you and how you understand the teaching.
That's true enough, but it's equally true that God's indwelling presence communicates itself to us in many other ways as well, including ideas, symbols, images, stirrings of feeling, dreams, etc. Iow, "thoughts" are no obstacle for the divine to communicate with us. Also, setting thoughts aside doesn't necessarily lead one to a clearer perception of the indwelling presence of God. We should really have a new discussion on the divine indwelling, for there seems to be lots of misunderstanding about this. Sometimes I'm not sure what people are talking about here. | |||
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OK, everyone interested in this topic . . . - REQUIRED READING - (seriously!) Go to http://archive.org/stream/Spir...Theologyall_djvu.txt where (amazingly!!!) you will find the full text of Jordan Aumann's classical text on Spiritual Theology. Aumann is a scholar of Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross; this book has been a stock reference for me for decades now. Once you get there, give the text time to load as it's all one long page. Do a browser search for "Prayer of Simplicity" and read what he has to say, and keep on reading about the practice of it, fruits, and then on to Contemplative Prayer and Supernatural Contemplation. Compare what he says about the Prayer of Simplicity with how Centering Prayer is taught. Note how much more flexible and natural it is, and the importance given to preparation. Compare his teaching on contemplation with what you've heard from CP teachers. Contemplation is very much an experience! I mention all this because CP teaching is often stated as having historical antecedents in the Prayer of Simplicity. - - - Fr. Aumann has said it all, including how CP really ought to be taught and practiced in his section on the Practice of the Prayer of Simple Regard. I have nothing else to add. Read and learn from Fr. Aumann, dear forum friends. He is a true master teacher on this topic. | |||
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Phil, That looks like a great book! Thanks for posting it here. | ||||
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts here, Mary Sue. You are picking up on what is key, I think. In relationship with an other (like with God), there can be times of peaceful being together with no words. In fact, that's a mark of a relaxed, healthy relationship: when two people can be together in silence. But we also need God to talk to us sometimes, don't we? We need communication of some kind from God; we need to talk and know we are heard. I think CP and like movements have great value for the reasons listed on the other thread, but the risk is that it may encourage a distrust of meeting God in more mundane or interactive ways, as Phil notes. But I see many people find no peace in their minds. I see why CP has developed as a kind of 'antedote' for our sick minds. Humans are riddled with chaotic, flitting, contradictory impulses that grope and jeer and snipe at our sense of 'who I am' and 'Who God is.' From this perspective, finding a stable 'place' inside is crucial. One needs a structure for how to find this 'place.' CP provides that structure and points to that 'place inside' that is less chaotic. Once you've done that, you know it's there, you can go there whenever you want, and/or it's ever-present in the back groud pretty much all the time, THEN your mind won't feel like an enemy to your peace and obstacle to your connection with God. It's a process. Asking God to teach us how to pray makes sense since only He knows our process. Sorry if I'm repeating myself here. A woman recently said to me: "I was walking along the street and I suddenly realized that all is gift!" She has suffered with a restless, critical, grumbling, and hyper-intellectual mind for years. Appears to me that God gave her this realization. It's a 'thought,' but that's a pretty good thought to have and hold onto--one that cuts and molds a soul. In scripture, we find people are led to conversions and deeper conversions through some pretty dramatic encounters with God. He has revealed His Will, His thoughts, His feelings, His character to creation in many different ways. | ||||
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To add to the resource list, I'd like to recommend the Contemplative Outreach website: http://www.contemplativeoutreach.org/ Also, you might want to check out the World Community for Christian Meditation: http://www.wccm.org/ WCCM also has two free daily emails: Daily Wisdom and Lent Daily Reflections. Both are beautifully done. However, the best way to read any of this work is in the larger context of being a practitioner. If you feel at all drawn to this type of prayer, don't hesitate to try it. You will learn soon enough by your own experience if it is a compatible form of prayer for you. Sorting, classifying, and discussing has its place. Yet, nothing replaces the experience itself. Good luck with all your endeavors. bj | ||||
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BJ, I wasn't starting a list of resources but recommending that participants in this discussion learn more about the traditional understanding of the Prayer of Simplicity, including how to practice it, and how this related to contemplative prayer. You call all that "sorting and classifying" and recommend "practice," but practice is precisely the concern of the Prayer of Simplicity. CP aligns itself with this traditional practice, and I think you'll see, it's a poor fit. I'd wholeheartedly recommend the Prayer of Simplicity to anyone who is in a state of recollection, as it seems more flexible and responsive to grace than Centering Prayer. I also recommend forming your minds in the interest of discernment. I'm not sure why you introduce Christian Meditation at this point as it's a whole other kind of practice -- a Christian version of TM, really. Do you really want to go there? If so, start another discussion on it. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil: "BJ, I wasn't starting a list of resources but recommending that participants in this discussion learn more about the traditional understanding of the Prayer of Simplicity, including how to practice it, and how this related to contemplative prayer. You call all that "sorting and classifying" and recommend "practice," but practice is precisely the concern of the Prayer of Simplicity. CP aligns itself with this traditional practice, and I think you'll see, it's a poor fit." I was thinking about sorting and classifying all the different types of prayer. I understand how it is important to some. However, it isn't high on my priority list. I have no great need of assessing exactly what type of prayer I am experiencing and deciding where that places me on the spiritual path. I'm happy to be tending in the right direction. I haven't read your above article yet so I haven't seen the fit or lack of it between CP and the Prayer of Simplicity. "I'd wholeheartedly recommend the Prayer of Simplicity to anyone who is in a state of recollection, as it seems more flexible and responsive to grace than Centering Prayer. I also recommend forming your minds in the interest of discernment. I'm not sure why you introduce Christian Meditation at this point as it's a whole other kind of practice -- a Christian version of TM, really. Do you really want to go there? If so, start another discussion on it." When I look up books on the internet, I often see the recommendation....'If you like this book, you might also like reading about this other book....' I was thinking about Christian Meditation in those terms. If someone is interested in Centering Prayer, they may also find Christian Meditation interesting. It's not the same thing but because it is a related topic in that both are forms of prayer using a prayer word. I have no interest in starting a new thread on it. I just wanted to mention it so others who might benefit from it would have a place to start. Phil, I just don't think much about the scholarly points of prayer. I can feel if it's a good fit for me or not. That is what counts for me. That and staying with the practice. bj | ||||
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True enough. That's what I was asking the forum to do. | |||
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I don't know if anyone here knows the answer, but I'd be interested to hear how proponents of centering prayer differentiate between the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" and pure self-awareness of the human soul. In terms of experience, I mean. From what I've seen and experienced, most forms of meditation that aim to strip away layers of thought and get to the "core" or "center" of a person primarily have the purpose of creating unity within the different aspects of the s(S)elf. This is, IMO, a form of worship of the One God (God of One), but different than what I've experienced the forms of prayer mentioned in the article, i.e. affective prayer and the prayer of simplicity. It seems to me that contemplative prayer would also bring the soul into an awareness of itself, similar to how we come to know ourselves through knowing a spouse in a marriage. But it also seems to me that it would be difficult for the reverse to be true, that is, practices that bring one to awareness of the soul cannot on their own bring us also to awareness of God. | ||||
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I had a quote by Merton above about that, echoing your main point. Fr. Keating does make a distinction between the simple awareness of the spiritual soul and the indwelling divine, and from an earlier quote I shared, it seems he'd affirm union with the divine when even awareness of self is transcended.
In the characteristics of Infused Contemplation described by Fr. Aumann (link above), only #11 of the 12 he lists speaks of a "suspension or binding of the faculties," which would be characteristic of ecstatic prayer. Fr. Keating's description above seems more like this. All the other points made by Fr. Aumann presuppose a human subject who is aware of having an experience that s/he is not causing . . . is drawn to . . . communicates Mystery and Love, and so forth.
So it's an experience that is noted in awareness and intellect, though it is not a consequence of the activities of the intellect, emotions, etc. That's all very true to my experience. Sometimes it seems that what Fr. Keating is describing is more like enlightenment than contemplation. What do you think? I am thinking of starting another thread soon on the Prayer of Simplicity and Contemplative Prayer, taking Fr. Aumann's writings and cleaning them up a bit (poor scan job, and no editing afterwards). That's an incredibly rich section of his book. The contrast with the CP method and CP teaching about contemplation is considerable. | |||
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You already know what I think: Yes. That's what I was troubled about in the "One Voice" interview Fr. Keating provided and many other places, including what you quote above in OM, OH. I began looking at that section by Fr. Aumann. It's wonderful. See these two criteria made by Father Aumann on infused contemplation. Very different than what Fr. Keating is talking about. 3. Impossibility ofproducing the mystical experience by one's efforts. The soul is fully aware of the fact that the experience it is enjoying has not been produced by its own efforts and that it will not last a second longer than is desired by the Holý Spirit who causes it. The soul is a passive subject of a sublime experience it could not produce of itself. The reason is that contemplation is' produced through the operation of the gifts of the Holý Spirit and individual souls are unable by their own efforts to activate the gifts. The gifts are directly under the control of the Holý Spirit 'and they operáte when he desires and only so long as he desires. God works in the soul according to his own good pleasure. Sometimes the mystical experience begins, is intensified, and then gradually diminishes until it disappears entirely, and this is what happens most freguently. But at other times the mystical experience may appear and disappear suddenly. ... 4. In contemplation the soul is more passive than active. We háve already stated that the soul cannot contemplate whenever it wishes, but only when the Holý Spirit desires and in the measure and degree he desires. Under the action of the gifts, the soul reacts in a vítal manner and cooperates with all its efforts in the divine movement but it is an activity that is received, so to speak. This is the famous patiens divina that is experienced by all mystics. St. Thomas says that in the operations of the gifts of the Holý Spirit the human soul does not act as mover, but rather as the thing moved.(15)This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shasha, | ||||
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"Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2711. | ||||
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I was just going to go back and change my wording. I mean to say, "missing the point" not the "boat."  Do you see the point that you can't make infused contemplation happen by your efforts like you can "enter into" (make happen) other states of awareness or connections with God-- like Centering Prayer, meditation, recollection, samhadi, or even Eucharistic liturgy. I think the CCC is using a broader-based definition of contemplative prayer than what the Carmelite doctors mean by infused contemplation.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shasha, | ||||
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I didn't mean to skip over this point that you are making here, Phil. I do see the crucial difference you are emphasizing--what I bolded above. | ||||
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