B . . . when you read 100 pages of a novel and don't enjoy it, do you really think the next 100 pages will be better?

I note that you did not reply to the points I made by sharing what you heard and understood, but felt compelled to defend Fr. Keating (who certainly doesn't need to defend himself). We corresponded and visited years ago about some of these issues, and Jim Arraj's book (cited above) addresses some of the concerns raised.

quote:

Centering Prayer allows us time to cultivate a receptivity to an awareness of that Presence which is all around and in us.

That's fine, but is that what Fr. K. said? It seems like he is saying that this awareness also IS us!

- - -

Another beef, and that's him saying "compassion" and "oneness" again and again in the interview. Those are Buddhist words, though Christians have no quarrel with them. Compassion, as an empathic response to suffering, is a manner of loving. But love is more than compassion, and the fruit of love is union, which is not the same as one-ness. Maybe another thread on this distinction? I know that what I want is to be "loved," not "compassioned." There is a difference, love being more intentional and interactive.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:
B . . . when you read 100 pages of a novel and don't enjoy it, do you really think the next 100 pages will be better?


-------------------------------------------------
I note that you did not reply to the points I made by sharing what you heard and understood, but felt compelled to defend Fr. Keating (who certainly doesn't need to defend himself).
-------------------------------------------------

Phil, I have been taking the time to read over the 7 pages of posts about Centering Prayer that you originally suggested to me in addition to listening to the 2 hour interview with Fr. T.

I saw this most recent post of yours in light of all that information. I see you bringing up many good points about CP in many of these posts. I also see you asking questions that reveal a lack of understanding.

My referral of you to Fr. T was not because I thought you were attacking him. My referral was because I thought he would be best suited to clarify his positions to you.

Let me explain it this way: Before I learned to ride a bike, people could have told me all about learning how to balance on it and all the mechanical details of the riding process but it wasn't until I actually tried it that I could even ask the correct questions. I think CP is a lot like this. It's very easy to get caught up in details that aren't of much significance once the process begins.

I like a lot of the points you make but they are geared to an intellectual level and there just needs to be recognition that there is so much more than that.

Now, having said all that, I agree with your distinction between compassion and love although I don't like to refer to the words as Buddhist words vs Christian words. They are just words.
I think another thread on that distinction is a good idea.


Also, if you reframed your questions with greater clarity and more brevity, it would be easier for me to address them, if need be.

Thanks.

bj

quote:

To my understanding, the consciousness of God is not the deepest level of our human consciousness. Maybe I'm misunderstanding him here, but that's what I've understood him to be saying in some of his writings as well. My problem with this is that it places God's presence deep in the unconscious...

I may be off beam here because I'm not very good at understanding much of anything, but let me take a shot at this. I'm coming at it from the position that God in essence is distinct from created consciousness, including human consciousness, but that He has left something of Himself in the Creation, as reflection, as expression, as movement of Himself. With that in mind, that part of Himself in us would necessarily be hidden somewhere in the deepest, most unconscious region of the soul, but through meditation and grace working in tandem, and through the crucifixion of the false self, it can be accessed and uncovered, brought to light and experienced as oneness. This could be described as a genuine experience of the divine, in that the oneness which issues from the dropping off of ego identity is a mirror image of the divine nature, in actual fact is the divine nature in reflection, or part of the oneness of God revealed in creation.

The other side of the coin is a union where individual consciousness is aware of itself sustained and ultimately filled with divine love, recreated and renewed in Christ, whose sacrifice is effective for both the realisation of oneness and the union experience. The individual recognises he is distinct from God and enters into relationship through faith, realising that his whole life is held in God's palm. Here one is in relationship with God in Himself, rather than experiencing God manifesting in the mirror of creation or human consciousness. This all has a distinctly panentheistic ring, but I'm happy with that.

I'm also coming at this from a position of kundalini awakening, where the energy of that divine reflection (God's movement in us) is directed towards reintegration with consciousness (God reflected in us), creating both the experience of oneness as reflection AND union in relationship with a loving God. The joining of energy and consciousness becomes then an experience of the divine in itself AND a created reflection of the experience of relational union - energy (creation) uniting with consciousness (God).

This all might hinge on drawing close parallels to the idea of Atman/Brahman, but I'm no Hindu, nor am I a theologian, so there may be holes in my thinking. I also might be wanting to have my cake and eat it too but I honestly don't see why the experience of oneness and the experience of union can't coincide, and why one can't be a reflection of the other. It means that human consciousness isn't divine per se, but that we do partake in the divine nature through Christ, which might just simply be an uncovering of what's already in us as children of God, something normally hidden by sin and self will - the darkness passing, the true light already shining, what is hidden being uncovered and brought to light through our interaction with divine activity.

This is all very poorly articulated and I don't really have the necessary theological vocabularly, but I hope it's clear enough.

quote:

I see you bringing up many good points about CP in many of these posts. I also see you asking questions that reveal a lack of understanding.

Maybe you can tell me what you think I don't understand? Centering prayer is easy enough to understand. It's the elaboration on it by TK and other teachers, especially about "pure faith" and related issues that I consider problemmatic.

-------

Nice post, Stephen. I can go along with what you write. Sounds good to me.

My problem is that sometimes I hear CP teachers (including TK) suggesting a scenario as follows:
1. God's indwelling presence is deep within, beyond even our self-awareness (sometimes God and awareness are actually used as synonyms, so that gets even more confusing).
2. To come to union with God, we must eliminate the "noise" in our mind and psyche that is the obstacle to union.
3. A regular practice of CP allows the divine physician to clear away the clutter and draw us (Ego?) to finally rest in that union.
4. As long as we are having any thoughts or even any awareness, we cannot really be in divine union.

My objections to these four points are as follows:
1. This is a point about anthropology, not grace. Grace infuses all levels of our being.
2. Union with God is not a matter of being static-free, but of having a will surrendered to God in love.
3. Resting in God is not a matter of going beyond the clutter, but of responding to the movement of grace within as God comes forth to meet us where we are.
4. Union with God is not evaluated on the basis of whether one has thoughts or not in prayer. Indeed, one can be thought-free and merely resting in oneself.

Some of this treads close to gnostic and quietist errors. It also seems to overly emphasize our practice as the means by which union is achieved.

We had another relevant discussion on Christian apophatic spirituality, by the way.
- https://shalomplace.org/eve/for.../18910625/m/76110806

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[QUOTE]I see you bringing up many good points about CP in many of these posts. I also see you asking questions that reveal a lack of understanding.

Maybe you can tell me what you think I don't understand? Centering prayer is easy enough to understand. It's the elaboration on it by TK and other teachers, especially about "pure faith" and related issues that I consider problemmatic.

-------

Phil,

As time allows, I'll get into further detail.
However, the following quote is in Frenette's book, "The Path of Centering Prayer."

"The prayer of quiet is very liberating because you begin to experience freedom amidst thoughts. Being free from thoughts, resting in the depths of the river away from the surface noise in interior silence, is indeed a valuable experience on the spiritual journey. But your relationship with God will be limited until you also learn how to be free IN thoughts. (my caps) If you are always searching for a transcendent peace free from thoughts, your spiritual life will not be fully integrated with the busyness and diversity of human life......." p. 47

I also found another definition of apophatic/kataphatic contemplation in the glossary for Fr. T's "Open Mind, Open Heart."

It is as follows:
Apophatic/Kataphatic contemplation--a misleading distinction suggesting opposition between the two; in fact, a proper preparation of the faculties (kataphatic practice) leads to apophatic contemplation, which in turn is sustained throughout kataphatic practices.

It, then, goes on to define each type individually.

It seems as though this is all evolving.

b

Note:

The definitions and Glossary referred to are in the book, "Foundations for Centering Prayer and the Christian Contemplative Life" by Thomas Keating. This book is a compilation of "Open Mind, Open Heart," "Invitation to Love," and "The Mystery of Christ."

BJ, I posted a link above to a discussion we had on Christian kataphatic and apophatic spirituality.

The four point contrasts I posted above lay out where my lingering questions and concerns lie. To put it even more succinctly, I wonder if CP isn't motivated more by anthropological considerations (turning inward to meet the God who dwells within) than by more traditional teachings on contemplative prayer (receptivity to the God who comes to meet us), which have emphasized infused graces that co-exist with the operations of the faculties? At best, CP fits in with the tradition on "acquired contemplation," which has always been a controversial topic. Jim Arraj (an authority on Thomas Aquinas and John of the Cross) always held that SJOC taught nothing of the sort and that the teachings on acquired contemplation (including CP) were based on a misunderstanding of John's writings.
- see From St. John of the Cross to Us, which is available online.

I think I'm pretty much "done" discussing CP, as there are the other threads that we're beginning to re-hash again. You wanted people to share their experiences, so maybe it would be good to resume that focus.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Phil,

I've been doing Centering Prayer for well over 30 years now. I learned the method of prayer from a priest who attended a week-end work shop on Centering Prayer, at St. Joseph's Abbey in Spencer, MA, where Fr Thomas Keating was once the abbot.

Although, I tend to call it quiet prayer, for the term Centering Prayer is treated with hostility in Catholic Forums.

Quiet prayer, or CP as the thread titles it, is rooted in the contemplative traditions of the desert fathers. Our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters, are more up on this method of prayer, which of course they use The Jesus Prayer, than we are in the West.

Centering Prayer is nothing more, than turning to the center of your being where God dwells, and being in his presence. We don't experience anything that isn't from God, nor do we desire anything other than God. Whatever action within the soul is from the grace of God, not from the method of prayer we're using.

I'm also a member of the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites, OCDS. When I first starting reading St. Teresa of Avila, I immediately saw that much of what she wrote about was Centering Prayer, which she calls "mental prayer."

However, when I came to St. John of the Cross' Living Flame of Love, Centering Prayer was most certainly what he was referring to.

In fact, Fr Keating says that when he and Basil Pennington had held a seminar for religions on the method they then called, "Quiet Prayer," it was the participants of that week-end retreat who began to call it "Centering Prayer," because they were focusing on St. John's Living Flame, and he uses the word, "center," so often in describing the soul's presence of God within.

I don't have an on-line link to St. John's poem, but if you can get a good translation, read it and you'll see what Centering Prayer is.

Centered In Chirst
Jim

Hi Jim. Good to hear from you again. It's been awhile.

I'm glad to hear you enjoy CP and it's been so helpful to you. I've heard the same from many others through the years. The problem, as I noted above, has more to do with how teachers of CP teach about it, especially with regard to SJOC.

A few brief responses to your post:

1. What St. Teresa of Avila called Prayer of Simplicity or Simple Regard is similar to CP. It's a radically simplified form of Mental Prayer to be used by people who are already in a state of recollection.

2. I think the Jesus Prayer is a more active form of prayer (closer to a mantra) than CP. There are similarities, but considerable differences.

3. SJOC speaks to the heart and spirit, and anyone who reads him can be nourished by his writings. But the proper understanding of what he meant to say in Living Flame and other works entails a reading of his reflections on the poem. Additionally, there is the academic study of John, which, like scripture study, helps us to better understand his meanings, especially concerning contemplation. The links I've posted above by Jim Arraj on "From St. John of the Cross to Us" and, further up, on Thomas Keating, provide such academic reflection. Arraj got his Doctorate in Sacred Theology from the Gregorian in Rome and was probably the world's foremost scholar on the quietist period that ensued after John and Teresa died. Arraj does not think John ever taught or intended to have his writings used in support of "acquired contemplation" (CP being an example of this). He meant only infused contemplation when he spoke of "loving attention" and similar matters -- of graces already given to which one consents.

Check out Jim's books. They are very interesting and well-written. They're also available for reading online free of charge (books may be purchase, or kindle downloads, too.)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Phil,

Hi Phil,
yeah it's been a while and good to see some activity in here.

Anyway, I just recently finished reading two books, "Christ the Eternal Tao," by Hieromonk Damascene. This is written from the Eastern Orthodox perspective, and the premiss is how Lau Tzu's teachings in the Tao Teh Ching, parallel to that of Jesus Christ. However, the author also gets into the use of the Jesus Prayer as taught by the Saints of the Eastern Orthodox Tradition and it's used more in a contemplative form of prayer.

Another book, "Into the Silent Land: A Guide to the Christian Practice of Contemplation," by Martin Laird. He also brings up the teachings from the Christian Mystics of the East. He uses the term, "Quiet Prayer," over Centering Prayer, mostly because of the misunderstandings about CP.

In either way, it's a method of prayer which opens us to contemplation, not contemplation itself which only comes from God.

The big point I got from the fist book was the words of Jesus, "watch and pray."

To watch is to observe the thoughts that come into our consciousness, and to let go of those which draw us away from the focus of our intention.

To pray is to turn to God dwelling within.

Of course there's a lot more, but this is just the gist of it.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
...In either way, it's a method of prayer which opens us to contemplation, not contemplation itself which only comes from God.
...

Hi Jim,
Welcome back. Nice to see you in these parts again.

That's how I see it too. CP is a method of prayer that may open us up to the gift of contemplation, which can't be acquired by our natural means. However, there's still a depth of peace and connection with God in recollection and mental prayer, etc.

But the gift of infused contemplation? Forget about it. There's no trying to get that through any method of prayer. Like Dubay has said, "It's like trying to reach the moon by jumping high enough."

From Arraj's book that Phil linked above (From St. John of the Cross to Us):

But just what did John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila call contemplation? For both of them contemplation meant infused contem-plation. It was not simply believing in God and putting ourselves in God’s presence by faith and reaching out in love, but it was an actual experience of God’s presence and love for us no matter how mysterious that experience might be. And while this infused contemplation admitted of many degrees, in all of them it was a prayer that was beyond our ability to obtain by our own efforts. Once we define contemplation in this way, then we have to ask ourselves whether the current renewal in mysticism is going to lead more and more people to the experience of contemplation, or even whether this should be one of its goals.

Interesting question...

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
........
You might say I was, conceptually, a nondual thinker about how creatures are connected way back then. But that doesn't say anything about God, nor does it imply a need for a wholesale revision of how we should talk about God. I'm hearing this again and again from Christian spiritual teachers these days, and I wonder what they're getting at? How does this change our understanding of who God is or the character of God? Someone explain, please.

It is as if limitations are being placed on God & one's relationship with Him.

Centering Prayer actually lifts the limitations placed on God by us, because we create images about God, which are our own creation and not who He really is. We seek God as He is, not as we creat him, which we tend to do.

In Centering Prayer, we go to the center of our being to be in the presence of God. We expect nothing other than to be in His presence. Whatever thoughts or images come into our consciousness, we merely let them go.

Jesus said to "watch and pray." Watching in prayer is to watch the thoughts that come into our mind's and to let them go. If we dwell on them, we begin to provide our own commentary on them, and before you know it, you're off on a tangent outside of the intention of your will, which is only to be in God's presence seeking union with Him through love.

So, for myself I merely return to my prayer word which I begin with every moment I pray, which is simply, "Lord Jesus."



Jim

Jim, your post above demonstrates what I meant when I stated that CP practice seems to be motivated by anthropological considerations. My problem is not so much that I disagree with what you and other CP advocates say so much as what you seem to exclude. I've already said a great deal about all this on this discussion thread, but will note a few things again, here.

In Centering Prayer, we go to the center of our being to be in the presence of God.
- God is present there, for sure, but also in everyone and everything. We come into the presence of God with eyes open looking outward at creation if we engage our faith in doing so.

We expect nothing other than to be in His presence. Whatever thoughts or images come into our consciousness, we merely let them go.
- Yes, and there is value to this, especially if we get caught up in them in such manner as to lose attentiveness to God. But God can and often does communicate with us through thoughts, feelings, images, etc., and it makes no sense to brush these aside if that's what God is doing. CP teaching assumes that the only way to be truly and purely in God's presence is if there are no thoughts of any kind.

. . . we create images about God, which are our own creation and not who He really is. We seek God as He is, not as we creat him, which we tend to do.
- There is an image of God that is not our creation: Jesus, who is the manifestation of God in human form. To relate to him using Scripture and other kataphatic means is to truly relate to God as God has chosen to relate to us.
- Also, what does "God as He is" mean? Essence? Trinity?

I am often struck by the descriptions of encountering the risen Christ and Holy Spirit in the New Testament. There we find God coming out to us, to meet us in love in our flawed ego selves. Yes, Jesus said "watch and pray," but it's quite a stretch to say that he was meaning to encourage something like CP. When the Apostles asked him to teach them to pray, he taught them the Lord's prayer, which was not meant to be rote, of course, but to describe movements in our relationship with God, beginning with praise. In my experience, contemplation almost always comes after praise.

I am not meaning to nit-pick here, as you obviously find good fruit from this type of prayer. Just take a look at how you talk about it and what you imply. Maybe I'm reading more into your words than you intend . . .

Phil, just a few things.

In Centering Prayer, we go to the center of our being to be in the presence of God. In
- God is present there, for sure, but also in everyone and everything. We come into the presence of God with eyes open looking outward at creation if we engage our faith in doing so.

God dwells within as stated in Scripture.

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? (1 Cor. 6:19)"

And it is true that God dwells in other people and that we see him in other things such as in nature, but that is his working hand. These things are gifts from God, his reflection, but they are not Him.

It is through interior prayer that we develop a relationship with God.

Through interior prayer which is being in God's presence at the center of our being, that we build a relationship of love with God.

Here I recall St Teresa's words in that it is in the depth of our being, that God communicates with us best.

It is through love, God transforms us and love can only grow by having a relationship with the Beloved.

St John of the Cross describes this being like a lover who takes on the characteristics of his beloved.

Through our relationship with Christ, we begin to take on His characteristic, which is love and it is through love, we begin to see Him as He really is.

Without prayer, infused contemplation is less likely to take place.

I won't say impossible, because everything is possible with God.


we create images about God, which are our own creation and not who He really is. We seek God as He is, not as we creat him, which we tend to do.
- There is an image of God that is not our creation: Jesus, who is the manifestation of God in human form. To relate to him using Scripture and other kataphatic means is to truly relate to God as God has chosen to relate to us. - Also, what does "God as He is" mean? Essence? Trinity?


Jesus is the revelation of the Father, however, even images of Jesus are most often our own creation.

Many imagine Jesus as the Jesus from movies, or works of art. We've never seen Jesus, so whatever picture we have, is generally what we've created in our mind, taken from the mind of some one else who create the image.

But the real Jesus is beyond this, and his revelation within that we seek.

It is the reality of his being as he reveals himself, and why we detach ourselves from what we've created.

To know Jesus, is not a mental picture we created. To know Him, we must go to Him within and allow Him to reveal Himself to us as He is.

Interior prayer is the way, as the mystics of the desert teach and as I myself and many others have experienced.

Jim

Jim, I think we're talking past each other in some ways. As I noted above, my problem is more what you're leaving out or seem to be implicitly denying.

For example, Teresa and John note that most do not experience contemplation regularly (John says that only God knows why), but that they can come to union with God through the more active, kataphatic forms of prayer. We can develop relationship with God through such means -- e.g., lectio divina, liturgical prayer, Eucharist, etc.

To know Jesus, is not a mental picture we created. To know Him, we must go to Him within and allow Him to reveal Himself to us as He is.

Yes, of course, we do not want to be latching onto false images of Jesus, but I think we can safely say that the Scriptures do not present us with such. We can relate to Him using the Gospels as the basis of our dialogue with Him. He can and does communicate via the Word, through thought, feeling, imaginiation, etc. and this does bring forth real interior knowledge and union. Union with God through kataphatic means is possible, and it's not second-rate. We see evidence of this through the gifts and fruits of the Spirit manifest in such Christians.

Can you say "amen" to that? I hope so. Would others of you who are reading this agree (or not)?

Yes I would agree 100%. The kataphatic is not second-rate. I am not able to still my noisy mind though I would like to,and have not been able to learn centering prayer. But I am able to read the Bible, and I do have a life-giving image of Jesus that has formed directly from the stories about Him in the scriptures. I also see Him in his handiwork, as Thomas Aquinas said: "Sacred writings are bound in two volumes - that of creation and that of the Holy Scriptures." A while ago I said to God, with a sad and discouraged spirit, as I was praying for a loved one to know Him, "I don't even know You." And I heard, somewhere in my own spirit, "Yes you do." And the yes was referring to my joy in who He is according to the scriptures and nature.

Thank you Phil and Shasha for your welcome of me and your reply to my post a few days back. Shasha, yes, I know that those polarities I listed don't have to be skewed - I like the centering prayer material in and of itself - my problem is/was that it is skewed in this particular time and place - my former church. My anger arises when I see that people aren't aware of the imbalance - but more so toward the leadership - I hold them to account as leaders. And I understand and agree too, absolutely, about forgiveness, and not being caught in a downward spiral of resentment. But still, anger at wrongness is good, especially when the wrongness is coming down from people with power and influence to people without. I think it must be possible to be angry and forgiving at the same time.

Phil, the worship at my ex-church is ordinary Anglican - no different than before the switch to an emphasis on contemplative prayer - except for the addition of a little buddhist singing bowl to call people to a moment of silence. It's the sermons that have changed. I sat in the pew straining to hear that there is a Person in the universe that people call God. I kept hearing about the quiet presence deep within, and there was never enough differentiation for me to know if this is my presence or God's presence. So I perceive this as a massive conflation of God and human.

I was raised in anthroposophy. The prayers I knew in my childhood were poems about the Divine. There was little if any direct interaction with the Person who sustains us, though these prayers/poems were beautiful. As a teenager I discovered evangelicalism. The aspect that drew me in was that people spoke directly to the Divine capital-O-Other, and did so from the context of their daily lives. I loved that, and still do, and can't bear to see that left behind.

In the 23rd psalm David speaks in the 3rd person about God while he is describing good things. Then when he starts talking about hard things - the valley of the shadow of death - he's suddenly in the immediacy of I and Thou. My own life is lived on the edge of the valley of the shadow of death, and the lack of the I-Thou in sermons did not allow me to gain strength for my week, the strength necessary for hard times, when I find myself inadequate to my tasks.

I didn't watch the entire TK video. At the beginning the interviewer says "What is God?" If TK had said "God is our Maker" and then proceeded with detail and nuance and subtleties I would have been fine. But that simple rock-solid basic item of fact was missing. Jesus didn't mind being that basic and childlike - He talked about His Father a lot.

In my ex-church too there was a pretty constant denigration of thought. The rational mind was not held in esteem. I love K. Wilber's notion of holarchy and hated to see this whole epistemology of the rational seen as less-than.

Phil I like your list of 4 CP points and your objections. God and awareness presented as synonymous are also a big problem for me. I really appreciate your juxtaposition/ differentiation of anthropology and grace.

Thank you all for listening, and I appreciate this discussion board.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
For example, Teresa and John note that most do not experience contemplation regularly (John says that only God knows why), but that they can come to union with God through the more active, kataphatic forms of prayer. We can develop relationship with God through such means -- e.g., lectio divina, liturgical prayer, Eucharist, etc.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but St Teresa and St John state that most do not achieve divine union while on earth that it is a gift that the Lord grants to very few.

However, contemplation involves levels as they describe in the Divine Mansions or the Ascent. We experience various forms of contemplation, and this is generally in proportion to our willingness to detach from those things which keep us from growing closer to God.

Anyway, I'm not here to debate about it, being Lent and all. In fact, I gave up other Catholic Forums for Lent, because they're mostly involve debat. One forum, discussions about Centering Prayer are prohibited, because they get so heated. Debates about prayer, go figure.

So if you don't mind, I'm going to take a break and just read what you and others have to say.

God Bless
Jim

Well, Jim, I don't go along with the critiques of those Catholic sites: that CP is New Age, Christian TM, or opens one to the devil, and so forth.

I'm wondering why you chose to ignore the question I asked about kataphatic prayer facilitating interior relationship with Christ. That should be easy enough to affirm.

As for "union," it seems you are now referring to the unitive stage of spiritual development, which, as you noted, has several levels. But I'm not sure why you bring that up? Are you saying that only contemplatives experience the unitive stage? That's going far beyond what Teresa and John say; they would not deny that people whose prayer is kataphatic can come to the unitive stage.

Feel free to jump back in whenever you'd like. I can certainly empathize with wanting to take a break.

--------

Thanks for your post, skylpod. I have a better idea where you're coming from now and empathize with your concerns.

In case you and others missed it, I posted a link earlier of Centering Prayer by Jim Arraj. I encourage anyone interested in these matters to read it carefully. You can skip the first part about Merton (which is very good) and drop down to the section on Thomas Keating, going until Ruth Burrows (also worth reading if you have the time). I think he raises some very good points, which were discussed at length in the other CP thread cited above.
- see http://www.innerexplorations.c...atchspmys/from13.htm

It will only take about 10 minutes to read Arraj's reflections and it will not be a waste of time. This man was a true scholar on such matters, and a wonderful Christian man himself, with a deep love for John of the Cross.

Here's a quote from the chapter:

quote:

We can grow in charity and in divine union even to a very high degree and not receive contemplative graces. Why don’t we receive them? "God alone knows," John of the Cross responds, and this is an issue we will have to return to in the next chapter. But it makes no sense to try to separate the experience of contemplation from contemplative prayer, for then we end up reinventing a new sort of acquired contemplation so that we can be contemplatives without the experience of contemplation, and all this leads to a reinterpretation of John of the Cross that is not faithful to his doctrine.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:

I'm wondering why you chose to ignore the question I asked about kataphatic prayer facilitating interior relationship with Christ. That should be easy enough to affirm.

I didn't comment on it because I'm not familiar with the term, and your use is the first time I've seen it. Doesn't mean it didn't cross my path in reading or talks by my OCDS directors, but I don't recall.

Anyway the word "kataphatic," even after looking at the literal definition of what the word means, it isn't clear enough for me to express a point of view on it, with respect to prayer.

quote:

As for "union," it seems you are now referring to the unitive stage of spiritual development, which, as you noted, has several levels. But I'm not sure why you bring that up? Are you saying that only contemplatives experience the unitive stage?

Few people reach divine union with God, while here on earth, according to St John of the Cross and St. Teresa.

I brought it up because I understood your post to say that people rarely experience contemplation.

And no, neither contemplation or divine union are received only by contemplatives, and St Teresa does say otherwise. However, she says contemplative prayer, or mental prayer as she expresses it, is the more common path where God brings souls seeking union with Him.

quote:

Feel free to jump back in whenever you'd like. I can certainly empathize with wanting to take a break.

Thanks, but for now I need the break.

Jim

Jim, kataphatic prayer is prayer that makes use of words, concepts, images, rituals, etc. to relate oneself to God. Fr. Keating and other CP teachers and writers use the term all the time and contrast it with apophatic prayer, or negative prayer, which does not make use of words or symbols. CP is more apophaptic.

Mental prayer is a form of kataphatic prayer, but kataphatic is a larger category.

We had a discussion on the relationship between kataphatic and apophatic prayer here.

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However, she (Teresa) says contemplative prayer, or mental prayer as she expresses it, is the more common path where God brings souls seeking union with Him.

To my understanding, "mental prayer" is kataphatic and is what Christians mean by meditation. We read a passage, reflect on it, pray about it, make a resolution, etc. It is active . . . discursive.

Contemplative prayer is more apophatic; it is a communication of the Spirit to our spirit without using words. There are stages of contemplation, beginning with the prayer of quiet, going to the prayer of union, and finally transforming union.

We're understanding Teresa's use of "mental prayer" and "contemplation" differently. Mental prayer is active, kataphatic; contemplation is receptive, apophatic.

Teresa writes in Chapter 16-17 of "The Way of Perfection" about this topic, encouraging sisters who do not experience contemplation to be content with mental prayer.

Phil,

I read Arraj's book 'From John of the Cross to Us' a number of years ago. I must admit I was rather disappointed by his thesis that John did not teach acquired contemplation and that acquired contemplation actually developed through a misunderstanding of his teachings.

My disappointment didn't come through any disagreement I had with Arraj's work, but rather it came because I badly wanted to be a contemplative and felt that I could WORK to achieve it (acquire it). His thesis broke down my dream and caused me to have reconsider my approach to the spiritual life.

Over the years however I have come to see that every part of the spiritual journey is grace, so now, as I reflect on this discussion above, I begin to wonder about the difference between contemplative grace and grace in general.

After all, if all the journey is grace then it is just as true to say we cannot experience any stage of prayer without grace, be it the early stages or the contemplative stage. Thus is seems a little superflous to highlight that contemplation is a work of grace since it then creates a juxtaposition whereby it appears we are saying that the early stages of prayer can be achieved without grace.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something of the language used here or the concepts being discussed (especially since I don't see myself as having achieved very much in terms of growth in the stages of prayer), but any help clarifying these ideas would be wonderful - thanks in advance for any response.

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Originally posted by Phil:


Teresa writes in Chapter 16-17 of "The Way of Perfection" about this topic, encouraging sisters who do not experience contemplation to be content with mental prayer.

Yeah, one of the problems with trying to understand St Teresa, is that she often introduces terms, i.e. "mental prayer," before telling you what it is. In fact, she doesn't get around to explaining what "mental prayer," is until chapter 22 and even then, she's vague.

However, using my own terms here, she explains mental prayer to be a conscious awareness of the presence of God, while in prayer. So, she links vocal prayer to mental prayer. However, later she gets more into mental prayer and contemplative prayer. In either case, it's not a mental picture or image of God, but the awareness of His presence and just who it is we are praying to.

When she says those who do not go into contemplative prayer should continue with mental prayer, she's merely saying that we should always pray with the mindfulness of being in God's presence.



For many, even vocal prayer or discursive mediation, will lead to contemplative prayer, where the mind and heart are united with God dwelling within. At this point, no words are necessary and no words can describe what is taking place, and only the soul who experiences it will understand.

This is why there is a difference in how Fr Thomas Keating teaches Centering Prayer, from what Fr Manning teaches. I've only read briefly what Fr Manning teaches, but from what I gather, the mantra is the focus of attention.

Not so with Fr Keating, whom I follow. The Sacred Prayer word is repeated only for the purpose of quieting the physical and mental facilities, but the focus of attention is on the presence of God, not the prayer word. The prayer words is merely used as s compass to return us to the intention of our will, which is to be in God's presence. Eventually, the prayer word isn't even said, because the focus is totally on God and the soul is unaware of the prayer word. We only return to the prayer word when we become aware that thoughts are not taking our attention away from God's presence.

Even when those thoughts seem holy, we have to let them go, for if they are from God, we've received all they will provide, and adding our own commentary to them, will only serve to distort the meaning.

Anyway, it's a method of contemplative prayer, which Abba Issac taught St. John Cassian, which Fr Keating and Fr Pennington RIP, often refer to.

The bottom line is, we can read everything ever written on the subject, but we'll never learn it, without actually experiencing it, and for this we must pray and pray often.

Center In Christ
Jim

Jim, it is difficult to have a discussion when people use words to signify different meanings. I guess we should work on some kind of glossary here, though there are already such in many spiritual manuals. And, of course, Teresa and John are not the only teachers on prayer in the Catholic tradition.

Over the course of time, it seems that mental prayer became used to indicate discursive meditation: using the mind to relate to God using Scripture and other readings. Affective prayers of petition, thanksgiving, repentance, etc. are also sometimes considered part of meditation.
- see http://www.catholicculture.org...ary/view.cfm?id=7725 and scroll down a little for a simple glossary. If you do a search for "mental prayer" you'll find plenty of other references.

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Anyway, it's a method of contemplative prayer, which Abba Issac taught St. John Cassian, which Fr Keating and Fr Pennington RIP, often refer to.

You are speaking of CP above, and calling it a method of contemplative prayer, which is, technically, not so (and is another example of what I was referring to above about confusion regarding elaboration on CP). The Contemplative Outreach folk used to speak of it that way, but now they say:

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Centering Prayer is a method of silent prayer that prepares us to receive the gift of contemplative prayer, prayer in which we experience God's presence within us, closer than breathing, closer than thinking, closer than consciousness itself.

So CP is not contemplative prayer.

I would take issue even with CO's implication (you all knew that I would, right? ) in that you don't need to do CP to be prepared to receive contemplative graces. I don't even think CP practitioners are more likely to experience contemplative prayer than, say, charismatics, or rosary-prayers, or people who do lectio divina regularly. Furthermore, I haven't found that people who do experience contemplation are more likely to be drawn to CP practice than other forms of prayer. E.g., my own experiences of contemplation come unbidden, sometimes in the middle of saying Liturgy of the Hours, often beginning with glossalalia, frequently during or after prayer of praise. It's pure grace, and being thought-free has nothing to do with it.

Now onto Jacques' post, in which I will continue my reflection.