Well Phil all I can say is, I disagree with you.

CP is a method method of contemplative prayer, because it opens us to contemplation.

Sure, there are those who may not be using it with regards to being open to contemplation, and is perhaps why others have backed off using the term. However, Fr Keating still calls it a method of contemplative prayer, and I don't he'll be retracting what he's published in his books.

But, we're not seeing eye-to-eye on this, so I'll just let it be for now.

Jim

Jacques, you wrote:

quote:

Over the years however I have come to see that every part of the spiritual journey is grace, so now, as I reflect on this discussion above, I begin to wonder about the difference between contemplative grace and grace in general.

After all, if all the journey is grace then it is just as true to say we cannot experience any stage of prayer without grace, be it the early stages or the contemplative stage. Thus is seems a little superflous to highlight that contemplation is a work of grace since it then creates a juxtaposition whereby it appears we are saying that the early stages of prayer can be achieved without grace.

I agree that everything is grace, but you can surely recognize that God gives different kinds of graces to each of us at different times. Contemplation is a grace that enables one to lovingly rest in God, which is a good thing and even a special witness and ministry to the Church. So in the olden days, it was held that people who received contemplative graces regularly were called to a contemplative vocation, and their prayer was a way in which they served the Church. Others who did not habitually receive these graces (maybe every now and then) were considered to be on the "active life" superhighway -- marriage, parish priesthood, perhaps a more active religious order than a contemplative one. Contemplative gave witness to the Church of God's abiding presence within. As cells in the body of Christ, their prayer benefited the entire Church. People in the active life also prayed, of course, but their service was more one of teaching, preaching, healing, administration, mercy, etc. Different gifts to different members of the same body.

Unfortunately, there arose this view that the contemplative life was a higher calling than the active life, and so some of St. Teresa's Carmelite sisters were jealous of the contemplatives because they themselves did not experience contemplation (though some tried to appear that they did so). Teresa reminded them that the Church considered Martha to be a Saint as well as Mary, and to be a Saint was . . . well, what more do you want? At the end of his book on St. John of the Cross and Dr. C. G. Jung, Jim Arraj, following St. Teresa, counsels that those who have been through the Dark Night of the Senses but who do not experience contemplative prayer regularly can nonetheless serve God by being faithful to prayer and loving service. He calls this the "way of faith" and notes that it is faith that establishes our union with God.

So anyone who has faith and is baptized is in union with God. This is not to say that they are in the unitive stage of the spiritual journey, however. Some writers allow for only contemplatives to be in the unitive stage; others say that it can happen to people in the active life as well since the telling issue is conformity of the will with God's will. I tend toward the latter view.

I visited the Arrajs at their forest home for several days at a time on six different occasions. Jim was my best friend for years, and we spent countless hours discussing all this, comparing writings, designing web pages, etc. He adamantly insisted that St. John of the Cross did not intend for his teachings to be an endorsement of what came to be called "Acquired Contemplation," and that John would be most unhappy to see how that all turned out. When I'd press him on CP practice, or Teresa's prayer of simple regard, he had no objection to the method or practice, so long as one did not call this "contemplative prayer" or assume that the practice would merit contemplative graces or even dispose one to receive such graces. He thought that teachings which stated that we are already contemplatives deep within (but just needed to get in touch with this) was ridiculous -- a total misunderstanding of what contemplative prayer is. The link I posted above leads to his reflections on Fr. Keating's teaching about pure faith and CP practice, which he also didn't like much.

I hope this all helps to clarify. People are certainly free to use terms like grace, union, contemplation, meditation, etc. as they'd like, but there has been a consensus understanding in the Catholic tradition that points to different kinds of practices and experiences.

quote:

Fr Keating still calls it a method of contemplative prayer, and I don't he'll be retracting what he's published in his books.

Jim, I don't think he does that any more. Contemplative Outreach does not.

As I noted above: People are certainly free to use terms like grace, union, contemplation, meditation, etc. as they'd like, but there has been a consensus understanding in the Catholic tradition that points to different kinds of practices and experiences.

- - -

Now I will be taking a break from this discussion as well, unless there is something new that comes up. I am saying the same things that I've already written in other places. There are other tasks to do . . .

quote:

Jim, I don't think he does that any more. Contemplative Outreach does not.

OK Phil, you got me questioning myself, so I had to go find Fr Keating's book, "Open Mind Open Heart."

Fr Keating states, "Centering Prayer is a discipline designed to reduce the obstacles to
"contemplative prayer."

So in this, you are correct.

He then goes on to say; "if you are willing to expand the meaning of contemplative prayer to include methods that prepare for it[true prayer] or lead to it. Centering Prayer can be identified as the first rung on the ladder of contemplative prayer, which rises step by step to union with God."

So, I was incorrectly using a boarder definition of Centering Prayer.

Perhaps because I use to read Contemplative Outreach often, but as you pointed out, they've corrected themselves as well. Maybe Fr Keating instructed them to?

Hope this helps.

Jim

Jim, you were probably using some of the older CO material.

But . . .

quote:

Centering Prayer can be identified as the first rung on the ladder of contemplative prayer . . .

Generally, the Prayer of Quiet, is considered to be the first stage of contemplative prayer. CP is more like the prayer of simple regard, or acquired recollection, which is the last rung on the ladder of mental prayer. That's about as far as one can go by exercising one's mind and will in grace. Whether one is drawn to contemplation or not is up to God.

One follow-up comment about CP being the "first rung on the ladder of contemplative prayer."

If this is meaning to equate CP with what Teresa called acquired recollection (also called active or ascetical recollection as opposed to passive or infused recollection, which is akin to the prayer of quiet) and sustaining such through the prayer of simplicity, then we also need to acknowledge that one can come to acquired recollection through other types of prayer, including the rosary, lectio divina, charismatic prayer, practice of the presence of God, and even a good liturgy. One can also sustain acquired recollection by continuing in those modes of prayer as needed, though in simplified manner. It is not necessary to use CP to come to acquired recollection nor to sustain this state once it develops.

Additionally, it's common for mature Christians to be in a state of habitual recollection where almost any kind of prayer or spiritual reading helps to deepen the state.

I think it's a mistake to overly identify CP with a recollected state of mind and will, and/or to emphasize CP as the way to comone to or remain in and deepen such a state.

Phil,
when Fr Keating and Fr Pennington first began to teach this method of prayer, they called it, "Quiet Prayer, or Prayer of Quiet."

From what I remember in Fr Keating's book, on Contemplative Prayer, It was on a week-end retreat attended by nuns and lay people, when they taught the method and referenced St. John of the Cross, "Living Flame of Love," that the participants began to refer to the it as "Centering Prayer."

In all, what does CP do?

It merely quiets us down for prayer. Nothing more. The rest is up to God.

Also, it doesn't exclude other methods of prayer, such as the Rosary.

If anything, for myself, the Rosary becomes a deeper form of prayer.

Jim

Jim, it's been a while since I read Fr. Keating's books, but I do remember reading something about those early days. I believe that at first they didn't really have a name for this form of prayer. If they did have to refer to it, they would call it "the prayer of the Cloud." This was because they arrived at it by simplifying the instructions in the Cloud of Unknowing. The "centering" part of the name came about because someone at the retreat you mention said that Thomas Merton had described prayer as a "centering down." I've looked on Google to see if I can find where Thomas Merton uses that expression, but so far I've not found the reference.

Derek and Jim, it helps to have a Kindle so you can quickly search a document for certain words.

I've just done a search for "center" in Merton's New Seeds of Contemplation and there are numerous references to:
- contemplation . . . is a deep resonance in the inmnost center of our spirit
- unless He utters Himself in you, speaks His own name in the center of our soul . . .
- the point of our contact with Him opens out and we pass through the center of our own nothingness and enter into infinite reality.
- draw all the powers of the soul down from its deepest center to rest in silent expectancy for the coming of God.
- a man cannot enter into the deepest center of himself and pass through that center into God, unless he is able to pass entirely out of himself and empty himself and give himself to other people in the purity of a selfless love.

Now, note this quote:

quote:

If you succeed in emptying your mind of every thought and every desire, you may indeed withdraw into the center of yourself and concentrate everything within you upon the imaginary point where your life springs out of God: yet you will not really find God. No natural exercise can bring you into vital contact with Him. Unless He utters Himself in you, speaks His own name in the center of your soul, you will no more know Him than a stone knows the ground upon which it rests in its inertia.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Now, note this quote:

quote:

If you succeed in emptying your mind of every thought and every desire, you may indeed withdraw into the center of yourself and concentrate everything within you upon the imaginary point where your life springs out of God: yet you will not really find God. No natural exercise can bring you into vital contact with Him. Unless He utters Himself in you, speaks His own name in the center of your soul, you will no more know Him than a stone knows the ground upon which it rests in its inertia.

Right. Thomas Merton has taken admirable care with his wording here. There's a similar paragraph in the CCC:

quote:

2711 Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy: we "gather up:" the heart, recollect our whole being under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, abide in the dwelling place of the Lord which we are, awaken our faith in order to enter into the presence of him who awaits us. We let our masks fall and turn our hearts back to the Lord who loves us, so as to hand ourselves over to him as an offering to be purified and transformed.

But notice how easy it for words to blur the distinction between the active and the passive:

quote:

2724 Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.

"It achieves real union" makes it sound as though our own efforts can "achieve" something.

This is from St. John's commentary on his poem,
"The Living Flame of Love," which I use to have an on-line link to. Anyway, if you have a copy of St John's Living Flame of Love, read it and then see how often her refers to the "center."

This is just part of it.

quote:

O living flame of love
that tenderly wounds my soul
in its deepest center! Since
now you are not oppressive,
now consummate! if it be your will:
tear through the veil of this sweet encounter!

quote:

in its deepest center!

9. This feast takes place in the substance of the soul where neither the center of the senses nor the devil can reach. Therefore, the more interior it is, the more secure, substantial, and delightful, because the more interior it is, the purer it is. And the greater the purity, the more abundantly, frequently, and generously God communicates himself. Thus the delight and joy of the soul is so much more intense because God is the doer of all without the soul's doing anything. Since the soul cannot do any work of its own save through the means and aid of the corporeal senses, from which in this event it is very free and far removed, its sole occupation now is to receive from God, who alone can move the soul and do his work in its depths. Thus all the movements of this soul are divine.

Although they belong to it, they belong to it because God works them in it and with it, for it wills and consents to them.2 Since by saying that the flame wounds in its deepest center the soul indicates that it has other, less profound centers, we ought to explain what is meant by these words.

10. First it should be known that the soul, insofar as it is a spirit, does not possess in its being high and low, deeper or less deep, as do quantitative bodies. Since it has no parts, there is no difference as to inward and outward; it is all one kind and does not have degrees of quantitative depth. It cannot receive greater illumination in one part than in another like physical bodies, but all of it is illumined equally in a degree of greater or lesser intensity, like air that is illumined or not illumined according to degrees.

11. The deepest center of an object we take to signify the farthest point attainable by that object's being and power and force of operation and movement. So fire or a rock have the natural power and motion necessary to reach their center, but they cannot pass beyond it. They can fail to reach and rest in this center if a powerful contrary movement impedes them.

Accordingly, we assert that when a rock is in the ground it is, after a fashion, in its center, even though it is not in its deepest center, for it is within the sphere of its center, activity, and movement; yet we do not assert that it has reached its deepest center, which is the middle of the earth. Thus the rock always possesses the power, strength, and inclination to go deeper and reach the ultimate and deepest center; and this it would do if the hindrance were removed. When once it arrives and no longer has any power or inclination toward further movement, we declare that it is in its deepest center.

12. The soul's center is God. When it has reached God with all the capacity of its being and the strength of its operation and inclination, it will have attained its final and deepest center in God, it will know, love, and enjoy God with all its might. When it has not reached this point (as happens in this mortal life, in which the soul cannot reach God with all its strength, even though in its center - which is God through grace and his self-communication to it), it still has movement and strength for advancing further and is not satisfied. Although it is in its center, it is not yet in its deepest center, for it can go deeper in God.

Jim, I read "in its deepest center" to indicate the depth to which the living flame of love has wounded (touched) the soul. John is talking about the actual experience of infused contemplation and the depth of awareness and love to which it has led him.

- - -

Derek, yes, it does seem the Catechism is adopting an understanding of contemplation that is more akin to the Cloud of Unknowing -- a kind of "acquired contemplation." I don't much like the way they talk about that, either.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Jim, I read "in its deepest center" to indicate the depth to which the living flame of love has wounded (touched) the soul. John is talking about the actual experience of infused contemplation and the depth of awareness and love to which it has led him.

- - -

True the Stanza's refer to the elevated union within the depths of the spirit, but John of the Cross wrote this poem for a lay-woman. Ana De Penalosa, he was directing and those who are ready, understand what he's referring to.

The point is, that we're all called to contemplation. By going to the center of our being in prayer, as Centering Prayer helps us do, is where we will find rest in the presence of God and where Contemplation will take place.
It's what the title "Centering Prayer" actually means.

To me, regardless of the method of prayer you use, true prayer comes from the center of our being. It is were the mind, heart and soul are united with God.

Jim

quote:

By going to the center of our being in prayer, as Centering Prayer helps us do, is where we will find rest in the presence of God and where Contemplation will take place.

Jim, did you read the quote by Merton above?

"Contemplation will take place" if God so decides, not if we do CP or go to the "center of our being in prayer."

quote:

The point is, that we're all called to contemplation.

Sts. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila would disagree -- at least with the notion that all are called to a contemplative pathway or vocation. All might be given the grace of contemplation at times, but that is different.

Stt http://www.innerexplorations.c...mystext/stquotes.htm for a few choice quotes by SJOC on contemplation.

quote:

Jim, did you read the quote by Merton above?

"Contemplation will take place" if God so decides, not if we do CP or go to the "center of our being in prayer."

Yes I did read Merton's statement and I've said nothing different. To be clear let me restate, "contemplation," comes from God, not from our doing.

quote:

Sts. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila would disagree -- at least with the notion that all are called to a contemplative pathway or vocation. All might be given the grace of contemplation at times, but that is different.

They would disagree that all reach contemplation, which isn't what I said, but contemplative prayer is relational and we are all called to having a relationship with God, this they would agree on.

Where God draws us for this to take place can vary. But contemplative prayer is where it's going to take place for most, regardless of the method of prayer which is used.

I guess I'm at the point that I see I'm not able to communicate my point well enough to make sense to others.

So, I'll just read what others and yourself have to say on the subject of Centering Prayer.

Of course, I'd like to see those with experience in it share.

In Christ
Jim

quote:

They would disagree that all reach contemplation, which isn't what I said, but contemplative prayer is relational and we are all called to having a relationship with God, this they would agree on.

Jim, I think the problem we're having is that you're using the term "contemplative prayer" to mean something different from contemplation, and I am not. To me, contemplative prayer and contemplation mean the same thing. Contemplative Outreach's use of "contemplative prayer" is also with reference to "contemplation."

quote:

2709 What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: "Contemplative prayer [oracion mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us." Contemplative prayer seeks him "whom my soul loves." It is Jesus, and in him, the Father. We seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love, and we seek him in that pure faith which causes us to be born of him and to live in him. In this inner prayer we can still meditate, but our attention is fixed on the Lord himself.

To me, Contemplative Prayer, is what we are doing whereas contemplation, is what God does within us. It is in Contemplation that we receive the transforming grace of divine love.

This is probably wrong, but it's how I've understood it all these years.


Jim

OK, in talking with my wife, who is also an OCDS, the distinction between contemplative prayer and contemplation, came from our OCDS group.

However, through this thread, I've discovered that the definitions of terms to be different than my understanding.

So, I went back to Fr Keating, and in his glossary of terms,

Contemplation - a synonym for contemplative prayer.

Centering Prayer, - a contemporary form of prayer of the heart, prayer of simplicity, prayer of faith, prayer of simple regard; a
method of reducing obstacles to the gift of
contemplative prayer and of facilitating the development of habits conducive to responding to the inspirations of the Spirit.

Hope this puts me on the same page.

Jim

Jim, Fr. Keating's glossary expresses the way I use these terms and the way they are generally used in the Christian mystical literature. Of course, there is no absolute uniformity when it comes to this kind of terminology, which is why it's important to designate what kinds of experiences they point to.

Contemplative Outreach also seems to consider "contemplative prayer" a synonym for "contemplation" on their web site.

You alluded to your involvement on Catholic forums and some bickering around CP. Could it be that part of the reason is that people aren't clear about their terminology?

quote:

You alluded to your involvement on Catholic forums and some bickering around CP. Could it be that part of the reason is that people aren't clear about their terminology?

No, not at all.

Their belief is that Centering Prayer is an Eastern meditation technique from the New Age movement.

Much of what they believe about CP, is based on this article;

THE DANGER OF CENTERING PRAYER
http://archive.catholic.com/th...ck/1997/9711fea1.asp

The article borders being fraudulent and I have spoken with monks at St. Joseph's Abbey about it.

Most of the debate came from new converts to Catholicism and some once thought that Contemplative Prayer was New Age.

Anyway, it's a banned topic at CAF.

Jim

I've seen that article, Jim. It has a little bit of truth, a lot of distorted information, and makes considerable use of straw man and red herring fallacious reasoning. One wonders why anyone would feel a need to write such a thing? EWTN had a similar critique years ago, and Contemplative Outreach responded to it in a dossier of material sent to all the bishops.

Phil you mention EWTN.

Ironically, Fr Dubey, author of "The Fire Within," and a regular guest on EWTN, mentions Centering Prayer in his book when describing St Teresa's words on prayer and he states, "Centering Prayer is not new." I believe it's on page 35 of the book, not sure though.

Jim

It's on page 92.

"Centering prayer is not new. Teresa is careful not to suggest it for all stages of the spiritual life, and she insists that, whatever activity is called for during the prayer in the fourth mansions, one should proceed "gently and noiselessly".........

(Note the lack of a capital P for the word prayer in the term Centering prayer.)


This quote is preceeded by a discussion of prayer in the fourth mansions which includes the following quote:

"The most we should do is occasionally, and quite simply, to utter a single word, like a person giving a little puff to a candle, when he sees it has almost gone out, so as to make it burn again; though, if it were fully alight, I supposed the only result of blowing it would be to put it out. I think the puff should be a gentle one because, if we begin to tax our brains by making up long speeches, the will may become active again......." (p. 91-92)

bj

Fr. Thomas Dubay is no great friend of Centering Prayer:
- http://books.google.com/books?...ing%20prayer&f=false

I got to visit with him years ago when he presented a workshop here in Wichita, as I attended it an was his ride to and from the airport. He's a delightful man, and very knowledgeable about the Christian mystical tradition. He didn't seem too impressed with the CP movement, however.

I suppose there have people who use Centering Prayer, who have distorted what it actually is, and not what Fr Keating taught.

The origins of Centering Prayer as taught by Fr Keating and Fr Pennington, have no connection to oriental forms of meditation.

Here's a link to what Fr Pennington wrote in his book, "Centering Prayer."

quote:

Centering Prayer - A Gift From the Desert
From Centering Prayer by Basil Pennington, pp.25-37

http://www.kyrie.com/cp/a_gift_from_the_desert.htm

I guess my problem is, I never met anyone other than the monks at St Joseph's Abbey, in Spencer, MA, who do Centering Prayer.

Funny thing is, even though it's banned at Catholic Answers, I described my prayer routine, which is Centering Prayer, but I called it Quiet Prayer.

The same people who at another time attacked Centering Prayer, approved of my description of Quiet Prayer. Nothing changed other than the title.

But what is Centering Prayer? It's nothing more than turning to God in prayer and seeking a relationship with him.

How this has become the subject of evil, is beyond me.

Jim