Dear,

My question concerns the relation between kataphatic and apophatic prayer in the context of suffering and 'the dark night of the soul'.
Are there people who have experienced that f.e. rosary prayer in the midst of physical and spiritual suffering leads to contemplative prayer?

Greetings,
Fred

Freddy,

Welcome!

I would say that John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila, whose Feast Day is tomorrow, I believe, and the day I began meditation, as memory serves. about nine years ago, are reliable guides. Cistercians Keating, Pennington, and Menninger have developed the Centering Prayer method, and Thomas Merton had a long Dark Night, from the looks of it.

I don't believe that suffering is an essential requirement, but it seems to take that for most of us.

shalom,

spoonboy

Thank you, Spoonboy. In the week-end I read again the DN by John of the Cross and it was a great experience! Years ago I had read it, but I cound't get the taste of it at that time! But now... what a text this is! At the same time, there is a sort of hyperventilation problem, I think, with the most weired symptoms since 1996. I hav te orelax and try to let the process go on, while maybe doing in an easy way some breathing exercises. What do anyone think?
Another questioin is whether use of medication may retarde this purification process.
Lastly, it would interest me to see more clearly the anthropological view on man by John of the Cross: the relations between body, senses, soul and spirit (and false self). maybe Phil has written on this, but I got acquainted with this website only recently...

Greetings,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by Freddy:
I have to relax and try to let the process go on, while maybe doing in an easy way some breathing exercises. What do anyone think?

I sense that alternate nostril breathing may be excellent for you!
If you�re not familiar with it, there is a simple instruction here.

Freddy,

About eight and a half years ago, I was relating the symptoms of a Kundalini awakening to a former fighter-bomber pilot, who did not frighten easily. When his eyes grew big as saucers, and he told me that I was in for a ride that might last for years, because he knew someone who had been through it, I did not quite realize at the time what this would entail. I have had to trust many times that the One who brought me to the dance was the One that would bring me home.

The first time I read St. John's DNS, I felt that I understood about up to page 56, and the second time I felt that I undestood up to around page 109. Now I'm afraid to try.

There are some Carmelite directors who have tried to simplify, and I wish I could read Spanish. Have you heard about Poulain, de Caussade, Tanqueray,
La Grange and other sytematizers of the apophatic?

Did you get into Centering Prayer or John Main yet?

shalom

Thank you everybody on this excellent forum.
The advice of 'HeartPrayer' is excellent. In fact I think I am struggling with some kind of hyperventilation syndrome. Some time ago I practiced this alternate nostril breathing, but I was overacting and the next day I practically died from pain. But now and then, in a quiet way I keep on practicing and it is ok. Good advice!

As to your post,Spoonboy,I have read the whole DN. There is nothing to be afraid of. But first something else. Yesterday I went to a Bible course. The priest was explaining things as the story of the flood in the Bible with the historic-critical (is this English, I am Flemish...)method and it was amazing to see how different stories are interrelated in this story (Gen 6-...). In all cultures there is this story as f.e. in the Gilgamesh epos (a whole lot more detailled even!). Normally, one read over these contradictions, but it was amazing to see. Read it, it is not what it seems to be! So, the Bible is not in the first place a historical book, but a book of religious stories with often hidden messages.
But, since I have been acquainted with more conservative evangelical circles who read it all quite literally, I was somehow restless and at home I looked up the interpretation of Augustine in 'The City of God': allegorical without rejecting the historical dimension and without too spiritual flights... but still very speculative to my opinion...(the arc is the body of Christ and he describes even length, breadth and so forth...according to the human body). I even had to laugh about certain sayings... But this in the margin...

I know of de Caussade 'Abandon � la providence divine'! Excellent! Also I heard of Carrigou-La Grange and the others you mention, but don't know a book by them. I try at 'Christian Classics'...
I read things of Main, Freeman, Keating, and there is a meditation group in Ostend where I live, but I don't like the kind of spiritual pride over there...
I try to meditate in the morning and the evening, but sometimes I can only lay down... which after all also Bede Griffith did while praying!

Another thing is the more devotional movement. I am deeply moved by the writings of the Polish holy sister Faustina. Try to get her diary! There you will find a lot about the richness and fertility of suffering with Jesus, sayings by Jesus Himself! Also look at 'At the master's Feet' by Singh: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/singh/feet.html
Greetings in Christ,
Fred

Hi Freddy,

In my opinion, an important key to successful breathing exercises is "to let the breath breathe itself". It is a question of awareness, not control. Allow your awareness to be relaxed; practice being "a witness", simply BE.

Whereas forced control is almost sure to backfire, gentleness wil go a long way. Keep practicing.

You always have your breath. It is a gift, a profound blessing!

-- HeartPrayer


PS. I look forward to checking out some of the writers you and Michael have mentioned.

Hi Freddy,

I'm glad I saw this post.. about breathing. I also have breathing and hyperventilation issuesand it so happens that tomorrow (Th.) I am going to a certified Transformational breath therapist. I have been practicing T.B. for several years and have had 5 or 6 sessions with her.

http://www.transformationalbreathing.com/

I agree with H.P. in that the key is to let the breath breathe itself.. However, that can be very hard to do, and also most people's respiratory muscles simply won't allow them to breathe properly. So this is where T.B. comes in. The respiratory muscles need to be re-trained and strengthened. For example I had a very weak diaphram muscle and so had to work on strengthening it. Once the muscles are working as they were meant to, then a smooth, even, complete breath is easier to take... and you can more easily "be breathed". Also, for me, it is more a matter of just RELAXING, and for me, that is a tall order. :-)

Katy

Freddy,

I didn't know about how Fr. Bede prayed. We have a section on kundalini awakening which might be helpful.

Thanks to Heartprayer (what a name!), Spoonboy (idem), and Kathy (idem) for the replies.
I feel this is a discussion board where I can get a lot of support!

To give a whole story of my spiritual jouney would take me too far. I am Flemish, 49 years old and was raised as a Catholic but have been involved in Western philosophy, Jehovah's Witness, evangelicalism, pentecostalism, Zen Buddhism, back to Roman Caholicism. I am deeply interested in Orthodox Church also (Kallistos Ware is one of my favorite writers there) and in the relation between spirituality and arts because I am a painter myself. Therefore I like very much Merton and Nouwen, 2 4's in the Enneagram as I am...
I have read a great amount of books on theology, spirituality, (contemplative) psychology, but always I have had the impression that because of a sort of hypersensitivity I compensated this by living more and more in my head, so that grace could not reach my heart, which I am longing for SO MUCH! I don't remember anything of my youth. What has happened? Some trauma? On the other hand I want to live here and now and not be involved into too much introspection anymore. Awareness and calm breathing can surely help me here, which I practice every morning and evening.
I myself have consulted a lot of doctors, monks, (alternative) therapists (New Age a.o.), psychiatrists throughout all these years. I have now and then contacts with a reknowned Benedictine monk Beno�t Standaert, author of several good books. He is a very wise man, acquainted with Buddhism and Jewish tradition and even Islam and his' device is: 'Stay in your cell and the cell will learn you everything (see the desert fathers)'. He is also very insisting to deal with several issues on the appropriate levels: body, soul, spirit. He sent me to a doctor but this one couldn't help me at all, as no one before.
Bookstores are full of this stuff (some working with energies, others with emotions or the body, others with spiritual masters or angels or...), and sometimes the laughing, happy faces I see on the covers make me feel a little sick of this!

Sorry guys, but here I see a big distance between f.e. let say American 'healthy-wealthy-positive-overly optimistic' stuff and f.e. Russian-Orthodox spirituality, Zen and the great Russian writers like Dostojevski, Sjestow (and also Rilke) and the famous koan: 'What to do when nothing can be done anymore'? Here one feels this is a spirituality with more body which does not reject suffering, emptiness, being stuck. Therefore I don't like things like reiki, positive thinking, Wayne Dyer stuff and so forth... about creating your one life. Emerson and the Transcendentalists have something of this also! Say this to handicapped persons!
To my opinion, Christianity is subversive to all natural thoughts and feelings and longings of man (read J. Ellul 'The Subversion of Christianity', Calvinist but makes you think a bit!)
And here John of the Cross comes into the picture. At first very frightening and dark, but as in a homeopathic process very helpful! Our wounds are healed by the wounds of Christ. John of the Cross goes very deep and is therefore very consoling.

There is of course always some doubt (the ego?) about this (but then again I know this is not what it is all about). It is not something like 'magic' (see 'The Secret' in US) or trying all kinds of techniques or methods, I feel! Andr� Louf, a great abbot says: 'All is Grace' and this is true. We can only prepare our ground.

Therefore, I was a little amazed that one man at the forum was practicing something like reiki, while Jesus forbids to practice this in many messages (not that I am overly devotional but... I know of some dangers with yoga and these things!:

http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/preface.html (although I know one has to pay attention with some so-called prophecies here!)

In the meantime, I also have had some interesting little experiences these days as little signals or kisses of God: a rosary around my neck at morning, a little child laughing and greeting me as Christ Himself, children that ask me to play with them near home...

Does anyone know 'Ciudad de Dios' ('Mystic city of God') by the great visionary Maria Agreda (17th century)? I feel there is not much room for devotional things at this forum... But this is a work, like there is no other! 8 books (!!) of visions on the creation, the whole histroy of salvation and especially the life of Mary, before all times conceived in the mind of God! I am reading the first book and it is superb! Why is this not known to more people? All theology and methaphysics is very superficial and narrow compared with this messages from God Himself to this little servant nun. Try to get this! It will deepen a lot your understanding of and love for our dear Christian faith! It is deeper than Emmerick, Valtorta, Faustina and other visionaries or mystics, maybe even John of the Cross or anyone else for that matter...

Thanks for all your prayers,
in Christ,
Fred




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Van: Philip St. Romain [mailto:phil@shalomplace.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 18 oktober 2007 0:45
Aan: Delameilleure Fred
Onderwerp: Re: FW:


Fred, I thought Heart Prayer's suggestion that you just let your breath do as it will is a good thing. Turn your breathing over to the Holy Spirit/Breath of God and see how that goes.


I asked earlier if there was a spiritual director you might meet with in your area. Retreat centers are a good place to find them. It sounds like you could benefit from meeting with someone in person and sharing all that's going on. You're always welcomed to use the discussion forum as well, and I'm glad to see that you're benefiting from it.


Peace. Phil

But this is a thread about DN of the soul. I have asked above whether

Fred, I see you posted my email response to you above. I'll be replying to you here instead of email as the larger forum community is also involved in your story.

It really sounds like you're well-informed on the issues at stake. In the end, there's only so much we can do with information; it gives the mind an orientation, but the transformation process occurring at other levels of our being need to be allowed to proceed without the mind interfering.

I think the counsel you received from Beno�t Standaert was very sound. Are you still in communication with him?

You noted: To my opinion, Christianity is subversive to all natural thoughts and feelings and longings of man. Not sure what you mean, here, but I'm inclined to disagree. Might you elaborate?

I sort of stumbled across using breathing & rhythm during prayer about 3 months ago... what really surprised me is that St. Ignatius of Loyola recommends using the breath to coordinate rhythmic prayer in his "Spiritual Exercises" :


"THIRD METHOD OF PRAYER

It will be by rhythm.

Addition. The Addition will be the same as in the First and Second Methods of Prayer.

Prayer. The Preparatory Prayer will be as in the Second Method of Prayer.

Third Method of Prayer. The Third Method of Prayer is that with each breath in or out, one has to pray mentally, saying one word of the Our Father, or of another prayer which is being recited: so that only one word be said between one breath and another, and while the time from one breath to another lasts, let attention be given chiefly to the meaning of such word, or to the person to whom he recites it, or to his own baseness, or to the difference from such great height to his own so great lowness. And in the same form and rule he will proceed on the other words of the Our Father; and the other prayers, that is to say, the Hail Mary, the Soul of Christ, the Creed, and the Hail, Holy Queen, he will make as he is accustomed."


Caneman


PS - this third method of rhythmic prayer was later prohibited by one of Igantius's sucessors! I am not completely sure why, but it was during the time of the Inquisition...

Freddy, Thanking You!!!

I never had heard of the Blue Nun, but I consumed quite a few bottles back in the day, more than my share to be sure. Remarkeable Saint, and I will finish The Mystic City of God tomorrow, scarely a trace of ego in the book she was transported to another realm. The words have a medieval quality uncontaminated by the rationalism of the time.

I am reading at the transrational paranoetic level almost exclusively these days. Have a bookcase of systematic theologians to give away...

A link to the book appears at the bottom of page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_de_Agreda

Three times longer than Bernadette of Lourdes has she rested in suspension of known physical laws.

http://shell.amigo.net/~tmv/Special_Inv4.html

I saw a Tibetan mummy, Sokushinbutsu, who has been
sitting in lotus position since the 15th century, which has a rational explanation, but this is a true miracle!

beyondtheordinary@paranormal.god

"I saw a Tibetan mummy, Sokushinbutsu, who has been sitting in lotus position since the 15th century, which has a rational explanation, but this is a true miracle!"

LOL dead or alive?

Fred, I agree with Phil.. too much information and living in the head... We need to get into our bodies and experience God's love, life, peace, joy, wisdom, etc. We are known by our fruits. That is what counts.

Katy

Freddy,

Everything happens for a reason and I am grateful
that you have brought the great Carmelite to my attention once again. I noticed that 184,000 had accessed Ascent of Mount Carmel and 259,000 had accessed Dark Night of the Soul in the last two years over at Christian Classics Ethereal Library.

That is exciting. There are an army of us out there. Onward mystic soldiers...

Popular New Age artist Loreena McKennitt on the Dark Night:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~josug/cits/lm/loracd53.html

This is all well and good, but limited to a poet's
understanding. Although I like Rabindranath Tagore and Kahlil Gibran's spiritual poetics, they are not mystics. Every pop
psychologist and New Age guru wants to write a book or an article on this, and they just obscure
thins further.

http://www.themystic.org/dark-night/

This is much more helpful, as I have experienced all of this in recent years and can relate to every word and phrase. This is a real mystic who has had the experience and remembers it thirty years later. Very helpful!

http://www.johnofthecross.com/

This is good scholarship and I read a hundred books like this at an earlier stage of the journey
toward the dark night, but now it's a bit like reading the telephone book. Useful information,
but I have to read actual mystics today. Eknath Easwaran is my current favorite.

I believe that a director or supportive group can be very helful indeed. There is great bliss and joy in the Presence and the Living Flame of Love, but at other times I wish I could just lay down and die and not have to take the journey. Am I in the dark night? I think so, but I wonder sometimes
if I am losing my marbles!

shalom,

spoonboy

Dear friends/spiritual seekers all over there, a long way from Belgium... First let me say, my English is probably not always good.
I love you all and, once again it helps me that there is a platform like this. Thank you again Phil! We all learn from each other as members of the Body of Christ.

Phil, I agree with you that I have done what I can, mentally speaking in getting information.
Transformation is indeed something else and I am 'working' on it with the grace of God.
B. Standaert is indeed a wise and experienced man as to the spiritual life. I have a new appointment with him in November. He wrote some articles for MID.
In saying that Christianity is subversive, I am thinking of J. Ellul ('La subversion du christianisme'), which is a good corrective to mysticism (stressing more the prophetical dimension) and a sometimes shocking book out of the context of Calvinism. But he doesn't take into account in a sufficient manner the incarnation of God! I also meant that the cross is an'skandalon', a stumbling block for natural man!

Caneman, I am surprised by hearing about Igantius of Loyola and making use of the breath! I never liked his approach, too much working with our discursive, mental, emotional, imagination faculties, but...

Spoonboy, the Blue Nun's 8 books are breathtaking, but after all very 'heavy' material. I don't like her way of writing either, but it is certainly something I never read about with other mystics! I am interested in your transrational paranoetic readings!

Spoonboy again, I cannot open the first website you mention, but I agree on pop psychology and New Age stuff. So let it be! I know Easwaran and I have corresponded with his widdow. Makes use of mantra's. Good and clear texts on meditation! But as a Christian, of course I miss crucial things...

Now something else (I am afraid we are speaking here about very different things and maybe this must be placed somewhere else).

I came across a book of Joy Lamb 'The Sword of the Spirit' http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Sp...d-God/dp/0970554605, from charismatic movement
a powerful book on healing and deliverance, full of bible references. Francis McNutt, one of the first in 20th century Catholic church who spoke about healing through proclamation of Scripture (as in Pentecostalism) and one of the 'founders' of the charismatic movement, wrote the foreword.

It amazes me again what thankful, proclaiming prayer can do! How does it come that so little is known of this within the Catholic church?
On the other extreme you have for example: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/singh/feet.html and http://www.ccel.org/ccel/decaussade/abandonment.html on the greath worth of suffering!

Apart from this kind of praying and binding the devil, there are of course all those other paths of prayer:

1. devotional prayers (rosary, litanies, affective word prayers...)
2. lectio divina (lectio, oratio, meditatio, contemplatio) and monastic office praying
3. different kinds of (Christian) meditation (John Main's and Laurence Freeman's 'Maranatha prayer', Thomas Keating's Centering Prayer, Christian Zen prayer, Jesus prayer, different methods of body and breath awareness as in Buddhist Vipassana, advaita...)
4. prayer in a context of vicarious suffering and 'rehabilitation' (Medieval female mystics, Elisabeth of the Trinity, Ther�se of Lisieux, Padre Pio, Marthe Robin, Maria Valtorta, sister Faustina and so many others...!)

I wonder how it is possible that through proclaiming the Word of God as exposed in Joy Lamb's book, people are getting healed instantly, while so many people (think of the desert fathers) have a long way to go to come to terms with their emotions, passions, sins and to achieve an integration of the conscious and unconscious (see Jung). Read John of the Cross and you will see that people have to go through dark nights of purification to get there! What is the relation of this optimistic proclaiming of biblical texts and the difficult processes and paths people have to go as myself (and most of you i am sure). Vicariously?

Another thing is this: Gr�n in his latest book on Christian faith quotes Panikkar, who speaks about the urgent need to transcend our Western rationality. Since body, soul and spirit are biblically speaking ONE, and because of the incarnation, I believe with Gr�n et alea that God can be encountered foremost in our body. But so little is written from a Christian point of view on body consciousness or awareness and the different levels of a human body: physical, energetical, ethererical; mental, causal (and the relation with the soul!). Here we can learn from the East as in other areas! Did you Phil wrote on this? Or who did in a clear way?

I say this, because yesterday I went to a good shiatsu practitioner. I realized how constricted I am (ego cramp) and with how much tension in my breast (unreleased grief!) I am living since all those years of living in my head. The shiatsu man adviced me to stop all breath exercices (I am too fixed on all this) and let the breath be as it is (see above). I am still more convinced now that Eastern and Western ways (f;e. the soft way of eutony!) of body therapy for people like me (perfectionist, fearful, inferiority feelings, all or nothing...) can be most helpful. Here is what I wrote to Gr�n and his reaction:

Dear father,
How are you? I pray for you. I am getting better and better. A few days ago, I felt completely stuck, but now I feel that the periods of relative lack of pain are growing more an more...
I read your latest book on Christian faith. Very good and clear language. It resembles a favorite of mine: K. Ware 'The Orthodox Way'. I like orthodoxy!
I have been interested in body therapies before and now I have read on all this again and practiced a lot of body and breath awareness. Very helpful and a beautiful 'spiritual' way! . As you always say, we experience God in the first place through our body! As I am interested before all in 'psychological contemplative practice' and since body, soul and spirit are ONE, it would interest me to hear of people that have gone through body and emotional therapies (f.e. yoga, rebirthing, eutony, shiatsu, rolfing, ostheopathy, bio-energetics, massage, sofrology, t'ai chi or anything else...).
I have encountered a very good website (with discussion forums) and a warm Christian Philippe St. Romain who years ago had some kundalini experiences and wrote a book on this.
Second, I don't know whether you are acquainted with Hindu schemes of the Self: annamaya kosha, pranamaya kosha, manomaya kosha, vijnanamayakosha, anandamaya kosha, atma. I wonder how the relation is with our Christian concept of body, soul and spirit. We talk about the body, but little is written about the different bodies we have from a Christian point of view! One is Bede Griffith. I am certain that body awareness can contribute a lot to transcendent our Western rational mentality (see Panikkar on page 15) Please write once a book on all this! Do you know of any? Anthropology interests me a lot!
But as I said, how do Christians in general relate to therapies on different levels (f.e. physical body, energetic body, mental body...)?
How is the relation between prana, ki, ruach, kundalini...? You will know eutony, because it is German (Alexander a.o.) and I think that von Durckheim had to do with it too... Last point: in your book you speak about 'theosis' in esotery and Buddhism (Dutch: p. 48), but what about the rich teachings on this in Orthodox Church?
Greetings,
Fred
His reply:
Dear Fred!
Thank you for your mail. I am glad, that you are feeling better. The body therapies are very good, not only for healing, that also for the spiritual life. I know Aikido and Eutonie. But I don�t know the hinduist conception of body. In the Hinduismus certainly there is great wisdom.
I cannot write a book about things, that I do not know very good.
For your way I want to you, that your way guides you in more freedom and love and peace.
Herzlichen Gru�
P.Anselm
Abtei M�nsterschwarzach
Schweinfurter Stra�e 40
97359 M�nsterschwarzach Abtei
Tel.: 0049 (0) 9324/20 230
Fax: 0049 (0) 9324/20 231
E-Mail: Anselm.Gruen@Abtei-Muensterschwarzach.de
Internet: www.Abtei-Muensterschwarzach.de

Someone who replies over there?
In Christ,
Fred







Gr�n wrote me today:

Freddy,

All I can say at this time is that we seem to have
a great deal in common and it can be difficult to locate such persons, so, I rejoice in fellowship!

Thank you for bringing Maria de Agreda to my attention and reminding me of DNR. Will get back to you on that. I collected many books as you are doing and we could have pooled our libraries and saved alot of time and expense, but it was fun!

I have some charismatic backround, so does Phil, have you read his book on Christian Kundalini yet?
How about the innerexplorations website? Have fun.

Remember rule #62, "Don't take yourself too seriously." Just reminding myself...

Katy says, "Breathe." -spoonboy

Hi Spoonboy,

Thanks for the fellowship! I didn't read the book on Christian Kundalini. Maybe I have to do it.
Not accidentally, I had a telephone call with a leader of a spiritual center near home and she is also writing a book on Christianity and body awareness from Buddhist perspective! It is a confirmation of what I find most intriguing now: body consciousness! The law of attraction? I looked for some books on body awareness and spirituality. Does anyone know of these titles and please some suggestion on good stuff...:
1. BK Frantzis: The great stillness
2. I McNaughlin: Body, breath and consciousness
3. A Meier: Spirituality and health
4. T Ryan: Reclaiming the body in Christian Spirituality (???)
5. T Ryan: Disciplines for Christian living
6. CSP Ryan: Prayer of heart and body
7. M.A. Burckhardt: Spirituality: living our connectedness
8. MA Finch: Care through touch (???)
9. Ishvara: Oneness in living: kundalini yoga, the spiritual path and the intentional
10. K Madden The book of Shamanic healing
11. W Ohashi Beyond Shiatsu
12. B Gottfried: Shortcut of Spirituality
13. C. Ridley: Stillness
14. M Kern: Wisdom in the body
15. WY Evans-Wentz Tibetan yoga and secret doctrines
???

Greetings,
Fred

6. T

Freddy,

With the exception of Evans-Wents, I am unfamiliar with all of those authors, and as I am seeking an
in-the-body-experience, I think I am about to learn something. These books are familiar to many who are here with us. We are no longer alone.

http://shalomplace.com/books/kundalini.html

http://www.innerexplorations.com/catew/7.htm

What's it like having a spiritual director? I have relied more on groups for this.

shalom,

spoonboy

Fred,

I have read a lot about body/mind/spirit and how they affect one another. What is it you are wanting?

What do you eat? Do you exercise?

Presently I am reading "Feelings Buried Alive Never Die..", by Karol K. Truman. I highly recommend it, but then it may not be "deep" enough for you?

Also, you may find my holistic website helpful.. I think you said you were sensitive?

www.holystic.com

Katy

Dear Kathy,
Wonderful.
I have been interested in body therapies before but wasn't ready for it. Too mental, too much constricted...and now I have read on all this again and am practicing some body scan and breath awareness. Very helpful, as I feel after my shiatsu treatment! And a beautiful, underestimated 'spiritual' way! We are all far too rational in the West! And we experience God in the first place through our body! As I am interested before all in 'psychological contemplative practice' and since body, soul and spirit are ONE, it would interest me to hear of people, like you, that have gone through body and emotional therapies (f.e. yoga, rebirthing, eutony, shiatsu, rolfing, ostheopathy, bio-energetics, massage, sofrology, t'ai chi or anything else...).

Second, maybe I want to 'know' again too much about all this... I am aware of that. I don't know whether you are acquainted with Hindu schemes of the Self: annamaya kosha, pranamaya kosha, manomaya kosha, vijnanamayakosha, anandamaya kosha, atma. I wonder how the relation is with our Christian concept of body, soul and spirit. We talk about the body, but little is written about the different bodies we have from a Christian point of view! One is Bede Griffith. I am certain that symbolic consciousness (through images, films, music, theatre, play, dreams...) and body awareness can contribute a lot to transcendent our Western rational mentality (see Panikkar) So theology is anthropology! A Dutch scholar wrote a most interesting book on mystagogy and symbolic consciousness but I don't know whether it is translated in English. Title:
'Mystagogie' by Tjeu van den Berk!
http://www.nl.bol.com/is-bin/I...6853961&Section=BOOK

But as I said, how do Christians in general relate to therapies on different levels (f.e. physical body, energetic body, mental body, causal body...)? Did Wilber wrote about this?

How is the relation between prana, ki, ruach, kundalini...?

Greetings,
Fred

Freddy,

I'm just several months now into Hatha Yoga and I'm too green to share about it just yet.

Why not start a thread in the "Transformative Experiences" section of the website? Whatever strikes you fancy...or not...as you like.

I do promise to get back to you on St. John's DNS.

This was an informative site for me on East-West dialogue:

http://www.innerexplorations.com/

Hope you feel welcome, pull up a chair by the fire
and stay for awhile. Katy is a sweetheart!

shalom, sb

Hi Spoonboy,
Have to go now... I pick it up later.
I 'know' James Arraj...

Katy,
Thanks for the website!
PS I don't have any...

Freddy, you don't have any what? LOL

Awwww, Spoonboy, thanks.

:-)

Katy

Freddy,

For me, bodywork, as it is called here, is what I am most interested in. Some therapies I have had are: massage therapy, zero balancing, cranio sacral, kinesiology, reiki, healing touch, lots of Hatha yoga, Transformational breath therapy, feldenkrais, and more. "Hindu schemes of the Self", I have little interest in. I don't think it's necessary for me to know about it, unless the Holy Spirit leads me in that direction. I have enough therapises and knowledge to keep me busy.. and that is the secret... to actually DO the yoga, the breathing, etc.

The body/mind/spirit are one, I believe, and our whole self is called the soul. I know that spirit, mind, heart, soul, mind, etc. are often used interchangably, but I believe we are body, mind (intellect, emotions, will) and spirit (the indestructible ,God part of us.)

Christianity has given so much attention to the spirit and soul aspect of us and neglected the body for too long. They are finally coming around, though.

So anyway, Fred, I try to keep it simple these days and not get so wrapped up in theologies, philiosphy, but I concentrate on Christ in me, and being embodied by Him. I believe that eventually our bodies will become spiritualized.. as the Christ Spirit in us works outward.. but that, I guess, is another topic.

Here is a good quote from "Waking the Tiger", regarding somatic experiencing: "Physiologically speaking, heaven is expansion and hell is contraction..." Sooo, relax, expand, let go and let God.

A few books you might like:

"The Breath of God-An Approach to Prayer", by Nancy Roth
"Waking the Tiger-Healing Trauma" by Peter Levine
"Wheels of Light", Rosalyn L. Bruyere
"Perfect Health", Deepak Chopra.
"Feelings Buried Alive Never Die" Karol Truman
"The Chemistry of Joy" (Western science & Eastern wisdom), by Henry Emmmons
"Breathe Deep, Laugh Loudly" Judith Kravitz
"The Power of Now", Eckhart Tolle

True, you won't find much from a Christian perspective.. I'll let you know if I can think of any .

But in a nutshell, I would say: Get out of your head and get into your body; Get physical!

:-)

Katy