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| <joe> |
Thanks for your lovely words, zoe. I found an interesting write up on the Islamic and Sufic importance of Mary in my tradition. Ill paste it here: "Even more surprising is the Koran�s reverence for Mary, mother of Christ. Muhammad (and also in later Islamic theological scriptures) regarded Mary as the most marvellous of all women, a high adept and living example of the pure and holy life. Later Koranic commentaries describe Mary as an intervening force between God (Allah) and humanity. This intervening force is characterised by Allah�s mercy, forgiveness, sweetness and humility- the embodiment of Allah�s love for creation. When Muhammad retook Mecca he began a programme of removing the pagan influences from the Kaaba, the most holy of Muslim sites. He removed many frescoes and images that he considered inauspicious but he specifically left on the walls a fresco of the Virgin Mary and her child." This link with Mary and God coincides with my own thoughts on the connection between the indescribable silence of God and its link to image, even the world and embodiment. It also helps us, I think, to see that there are many interesting links between our respective traditions (including sign posts) and approaches to God. j.
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| <joe> |
hi zoe, i guess my path has been first reclusive. during those years (about 6) i experienced many graces which i usually falsely attributed (in subtle and not so subtle ways) back to self, and my own senual nature. after traveling to india and pakistan, something occured that i can not describe, as i dont understand it. after returning, i was unable to relate to divine in the way that i used to. this coincided with leaving a spiritual path that had a hindu and even sufic approach. after leaving that path, i tried to deny my previous experiences and just live life. now i have returned to god, as the pressure was often too intense for me to ignore. i also returned to 'normal' and functional life. this proved to be indispensible to actually facing egoic self and suffering through dark night. if i returned to solitude, i would only have self to face. to face self in the world proved to harder than facing self in solitude. and this proved to also coincide with my own understanding of sufism and Islam as being worldly. that has been my approach, although god only knows if it is correct. for now, i am deeply involved in worldly work, even if it seems entirely dry. there are moments of tremendous passion in what i do in the world, but after i leave my work, i am usually left back in a kind of aridity. j.
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| <Zoe> |
Joe, very beneficial you sharing some things that have happened to you in this journey of the dark night that are beyond your understanding. One example you stated is leaving India and Pakistan which coincided with your involvement with Sufism and Hinduism. May understanding come in this ever changing spiritual process. I find that there are lots of things I just don't understand at all, but somehow clarity and light does enter my consciousness when least expected, and some things wait to blossom forth another day.  Once we have entered this dark night, which are many nights and deaths, all that was so familiar to us passes away, and I have heard from others that have shared our journey and have birthed anew, that years, thereafter, aridity and dryness, loss of joy and interest in daily life, involvement with other creatures and motivations for anything comes to a standstill. Although the wings of love are in ascension, and part of us is aware of having returned home to God, we are still also here in our human bodies leading the life we have been given. It's like being in two places at the same time. It does get better with the ending of days and/or years.. May being in the present right now be comfort for you, for this is truly our moment in time. To know the self and have the courage to face the self, is the hardest thing to do and takes all courage. The ego will do everything to take us away from this self knowledge which is part of our freedom and must be faced. Relentlessly the ego will distract us with this and that. Here again I do not have the answer for you, but I will tell you that I have become my own best friend and like myself. How this came to be, is a mystery  The worldly things I left behind are manipulations by others, glitz and glamour, and thinking that I could be a savior. I still help in community, family and friends and neighbors as well as give aide to world peace, yet my soul is happiest with God always rejoicing in the First Commandment. Joe, you mentioned having a spiritual mentor who has gone through the birthing process and dark night. How blessed you are. | ||
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| <Zoe> |
Joe, can you share why you left a spiritual path that had a Hindu and Sufic approach?, and are you saying quote: :Now I have returned to God", does that mean that you did not experience God in the Hindu and Sufic beliefs?. Also could you express what a quote: "normal and functional" life means for you?. I am not familiar with Sufism, but have gained much knowledge in my studies of Hinduism. This knowledge and understanding of Hinduism has strengthened and enriched my on personal spiritual journey and has given me a greater awareness of the love of the One God, embracing all of humanity. I found that the concept and belief held by non-Hindus that many gods and goddesses are worshipped in Hinduism to be untrue. These gods and goddesses are energies and expressions of the One God Brahma. True Hindu masters will tell you that Hinduism, like many other religions and belief systems has teachers of the spirit and teachers of the flesh, and that both of their teachings are expressed vverbally and side by side in the temples. One example is the Shiva lingam. Giving just one example, "the truth is that the Shiva lingam is an expression of Brahma's pure consciousness and has absolutely nothing to do with a man's sexual organ." The ignorant pervert its very sacred meaning. Let me recommend a book: "Every Eye Beholds You", a world treasury of prayers, edited and annotated by Thomas J. Craughwell. Tears flowed abundantly in my realization of the great love held for the One God in all religions. | ||
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| <joe> |
Hi Zoe, Sure. I left the path I was on because I felt I had reached an impasse. More precisely, it felt like a wall in my being. At this point, receiving grace had become quite easy - but some part of my being remained unfulfilled. Now I realize that this was the real challenge for me. Recieving grace, in other words, had later given me the ability to see that I would not allow this same grace to change this part of myself that resisted. Yet this part of me that resisted was still 'real,' still needed to be honored. I realized at this point that my being is arranged in various strata, and that when the light works through certain parts, other parts will remain resistant and resiliant, holding onto their old ways and emotional patterns that seem engraved in stone. This wall is what one teacher calls original belief. If the self is figured as a banyan tree, the trunk is ones original belief. Original belief may be summarized in a pithy sentence. Most of our motives arise from this one belief from which all other beliefs are tributaries. So reaching this for me was actually a slow process. Living through ones original belief is really living through ones own death. It is what I have come to see as gut wrenching work -- that has moments and days of relief. I did receive grace on the path I was on, but that grace was not sufficent to effect the transformation that I was in search of. So I left. There were a couple of reasons I could pinpoint at the time: 1. Over six years, I felt that I had received all I possibly could receive. I had done community service, I had worked for the teacher, I had supported the community etc., but I still felt like I had not found God. After I left, the grace never left me. I continued to experience highs. At the same time, it seemed easier to start to not to attribute them to someone else (a Guru, for example). This attributing to a Guru often created a stronger 'me.' 2. The rules of that path had become limiting, and I wanted/needed to be in relationship in order to work through this impasse, or original belief. I consulted Father Keatings on that point, and he agreed that it was ok to get involved in relationships and my leaving the path seemed right to him, as it coincided with what he called simple awareness of God. This simple awareness came more as I disentangled myself from the community I was involved in. It was terribly difficult to leave because community is a tremendous support and also inspiration. And a genuine teacher can really expedite change. However, the entire structure of community, can also arrest the needed confrontation with ones own original belief. There are a variety of strategies by which community can create rules and systems which do not allow one to live through ones original belief. One of the ways is to impose a grid of rules from a top down approach without taking into consideration the very particular ways that one is called to grow. This can create a culture of fear around the very issues that one is called to confront and tends to reinforce those buffers, as Gurdjieff calls them. As these buffers are slowly dissolved, the unconscious starts to percolate up and one starts to work through it. This is dark night. This is incredibly difficult to handle at times and results in all sorts of symptoms which need to be diligently studied in order to determine if their cause is indeed spiritual, or an organic imbalance. By functional life: I guess I mean simply doing what one needs to do in order to function, but not adding stress to it. Not worrying too much about it. In dark night, ones life will become simplified and stripped, leaving only the bare essentials which include making a living, dealing with people as one needs to. How does one know what actions called for and what is not in dark night? By living life and examining ones life with some degree of scrutiny and often ruthless, heart breaking sincerity (intuition). Because of the heaviness on mental functioning that arises when a genuine dark night experience sets in, it will not be possible to do certain things because the affective energy that once used to do those things is not functional. To remain functional in all of this is sometimes surpising. One doesn't know how they, for example, can even walk down a flight of stairs. It is like rewiring the brain. But we don't really do this, we have to learn all over again. So this is part of living functional life in dark night. It is relearning. Often days will go by that are just heavy, but to persist in all of this is part of taking responsibility in dn. j. | ||
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| <joe> |
One other thought/reflection: I think one must start to distinguish between 'necessary suffering' and unnecessary suffering' in order to understand what it means to remain functional in dn. DN brings us to the point of necessary suffering, suffering through original belief with some sense of detachment (objective awareness). If we didn't have some objective awareness, one might go slightly mad. Unneccessary suffering is all the stuff that one might be called to renouce. This starts to become clear with some intuition and also guidance from someone who has genuinely been through a dn. In all of this, one learns faith which is not knowing. This not knowing I have understood to even be physical. One might not know how to move ones body any more. So there is a great deal of surprise when one realizes that one can walk alone, and start to accept ones necessary suffering and renounce the burden of the old self. I have no clue how one can do all this without guidance. | ||
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| <Zoe> |
Joe, thank you for your deep and generous sharing, all I can relate to very strongly and wish to respond to same input when I have more time. The following is a revelation that just came to me yesterday, and I wonder if you, Joe, Phil, or others on the forum have or are experiencing something similar. To be a new creature has many definitions, one of them I discovered is a loss of identity as to who I was in the past. One practically is no more, but being reborn as the new. Last year I had 4-5 dreams about losing my wallet. Yesterday again I dreamt of the same loss of my wallet. I do not carry money in same wallet, except a check book, driver's license, health insurance card 1-2 credit cards and triple A card. No photos of anyone. I realized that my subconscious is conveying to me the loss of my former identity. During the dark night there is truly a death, a disappearance of who you were. Family members and friends have to be known all over again since nothing seems familiar to me in their presence. It is not amnesia, but it appears that the past has been severed and I now live in the presence, one day at a time. Also all old and familiar things that I used to enjoy doing have also fallen away. My love for gardening is the only remaining past joy. Same may be due to my love for nature and watching the birth, death and rebirth of same in the Spring. Since this above mentioned realization is fresh on my mind, I wished to share same right now, and will respond further to Joe's post. | ||
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| <Zoe> |
Hi Joe, Kind of hard to respond when one cannot check back to see what was said by a poster and one must rely upon memory, but here it goes. I agree with what a teacher calls original belief being a resistant wall, or trunk of a tree, and that living through said original belief is part of ones death. Oh yes, much hard wrenching work needs to be done to overcome same and not to be stuck without moving forward. I can see as to why you left the community, teacher, and branched out on your own, although you received many graces and benefits. I call it freedom of the mind to think for yourself which has been such a vital part in my own journey, one I am so grateful for. I do have spiritual direction and guidance from others way more advanced in this dark night process than myself. Their blessings have come to me through music, symbols, and by staying centered in loving kindness. They have much faith, and as you say faith is not knowing, which for me not knowing is challenging and stimulating. I have not been tempted to join a community, and none of my spiritual friends who belong to one have pressured me into such a committment. There were two teachers who now have died whom I found extremely instrumental in their guidance for me, although I had no formal relationship with them. They were both loved deeply by me and with much gratitude I remember them daily. I like your response as to leading a normal and functional life, which is in agreement with mine. It is hard to say when a dark night ends. Somehow I feel one needs to stay vigilant and awake no matter what level of transformation one has reached. Set backs are not uncommen. Are you familiar with Gustav Meyrinck, He wrote the Green Face, to be awake is everything. This is my first thought upon arising, be awake!. Relationship is not something on my agenda at this time, although I do have men friends and enjoy their company whenever we do get together. I really don't know if I could return to a love relationship. I was discussing same with a male friend just the other day who asked if I am not lonely, and why would I not embrace relationship. It is not my desire was the answer, and this is very true, indeed. I may choose to be alone but am never lonely, and I do keep relationship options open. Have you heard of Evelyn Underhill?, a mystic who has written a recommended book which I have not read as yet. | ||
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Hello Zoe: What you are expressing here I know by the term Enlightenment. Perhaps others can relate to what you are saying in other terms. The old ego has been transcended and there is a higher functioning one now. For some all the old imprinting has been erased at once, others it seems to go piece by piece. Peace Ajoy
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| <joe> |
Some responses today from a teacher on dark night: I feel panic today, although earlier in the morning I was fine. then there is this constricting sense in my heart, this tightening knot in a gut and it feels as though I will die. -- I looked up some of this and I guess I could be classified as a beginning signs of a panic attack. He's what the teacher said to my more extensive description of what I was going through: He writes: it prepares the nervous system to live nothing(ness).absence of ego desires/fulfillment. it is similar to what junkies go through when they don't get their drug. at one time in the past, you must have wanted with all your being to be free(d) . all you wrote could have been written by me 18 years ago. -- After I left my work place, all these symptoms seemed to vanished and there was a sense that the constrictions were loosening and today I feel quite clear. --- Zoe, can I ask you who the teachers were you mention, whose guidance was instrumental? One of my old teachers recently died and this really put a lot more pressure on this process. No way of a return to that community now. (I was considering it.) -- Im not familar with Gustav Meyrinck. Ill look up the book. -- Sounds like you are in a similar place as me, but are less resistant. -- The person who I am working with now recently told me that a strong ego is not so bad, as it is a strong ego that can withstand dark night without thinking of suicide. -- Sounds like you have a healthy, non resistant, honest and open view in regards to relationship. I commend you for that, as I have seen many people who are resistant of it because of their own defence mechanisms (buffers). People who are fairly advanced on the spiritual path who I know had traumatic relationships with their parents. Often it is through relationship that one is forced to face these issues. You should like you are not carrying that sort of baggage. I commend you for being open. -- I'm not sure one can think of an end to dark night, and it may not be productive to do so. i think one must prepared to be in dn their entire life, and there are many times when this seems to be the case. To think of ends is future driven thinking that dark night will most likely challenge. -- Some days it seems like one has come through the other side. there is tremendous clarity, beauty, and freedom. Then a couple of days later, the same cloud is over ones life in a way that is even more penetrating. -- I've heard of Evelyn Underhill, but have not read any thing by her. -- Thanks for sharing your process. It is helpful for me. j.
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| <joe> |
some great info here on inner considering. http://www.geocities.com/fourt...ices/practices12.htm I dont follow this path, but Ive found that his work (Gurdjieff), rather than his cosmology, is very useful. What creates the cloud, the confusion. I find that when I kill inner considering, judgments, it helps the cloud the lift (at least for a while) and then brings about another cleansing. Also, as the mind slows down, the body has to learn to adapt. Often the body movements is not aligned with the mind in dark night. So to learn how to slow the body down through various gentle exercises, actually helps my body to acclimitize to a growing silence in the being. Hope this helps some folks who are going through something similar. If you want God, be prepared to give your life. j. | ||
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| <joe> |
One final thought from yesterday: Earlier today, I felt existential dread. Underneath this, is death: empty and cold the buildings around me. I am only living now for my death. What is the use of this life now. -- What does it mean to live for ones death? Underneath that statement must be the realization that the old life cannot persist. Yet I think in dn we learn not to struggle against it, not to 'kill' it. Rather, there is something which does this for us. Before this point, we thought that perhaps we were doing 'good' work. Now, at this threshold, we realize that we were entirely incompentent in effecting real, lasting change. So to live for ones death, I guess, means that one consents to action of grace and lives through the consequences of even asking to know God more intimately. At this threshold, the path is narrow and we can't get through. We can't break the door down because I guess the door is as elusive as the mechanisms which we often use to find God. Also one learns to tolerate ones false self because, in part, it brought us to this place in the first place. As the silence grows, the self doesn't disappear, but reforms around that growing center. Perhaps that is the end that I can see. I would not want to leave my body, experience God, meet Jesus, fly on a half horse half mule to meet Moses, travel in a blue pearl. I would not want any of that, unless it was given. All of it now appears to me like junk, of a more refined sort. | ||
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| <Zoe> |
Hi Ajoy, Thanks for your contribution to this discussion on the DN. Yes, there appears to be a close allignment between DN and Enlightenment, for the both speak of death of the old and a rebirth of a new born life in God. As far as we can discern the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in darkness of mere being. Carl Gustav Jung. | ||
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| <Zoe> |
Hi Joe, Everything shared by you is extremely helpful for everyone going through the DN. How well I can relate to all your symptoms and experiences. This is the 12th year for me, and I find it difficult now to return into the past to relive by sharing the tremendous sufferings I went through the first 5 years. I felt all alone in the universe, yet the loving presence of God never left me as I clung to God's presence like an anchor. I do recall a conversation with the living presence of God before the flowing together of spirit and water. I found myself above with God looking down into the sea of life and seeing something so horrendous that I cannot speak of these agonies. I cried out to God: "What I am looking at Father is not love, you are love. My despair was beyond all comprehension at that very moment. I then looked again at something, which may have been a true reflection, and said: "This is love Father, this is you", and what followed thereafter was a flowing together of spirit and water, a birth of light from my heart came years later. Both of my teachers are not renowned in the world, but both were a treasure to me and a gift from heaven. Bob, was a high Christian teacher who had several students. He was a true son of God who guided me in silence and prayers. He did not need for me to tell him of my great sufferings experienced in this DN, and always said: "I know same, and you need not speak of it". I had the opportunity to witness the workings of a son with the Father, and spent many hours in silence together with him. Surely graces of his love continue today. The second teacher, Hero, was a yoga Master who had spent many years in India, and I was his only student. He embraced the love of God in all religions in unity and wholeness seeing no seperation between God in him, me, nor anyone else. His unpretentousness, realness and naturalness, are so treasured by me. He made the 23 Psalm a living seal within my heart, a seal that can never be broken. Through, Hero, I learned to live with God above, and to live out my life in this body down here. Both teachers are loved dearly and their graces remain with me on a daily basis. I hope that another guide will come in due time. I agree with you, Joe, that the DN will continue for the rest of our lives, yet may I give you hope in this ever changing process and transformation of our life in God, that the light of God does shine in the darkness forever, and may we all pass through same DN and birth the baby sun Christ. Zoe | ||
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| <joe> |
hi again, thanks for your generous sharing. 12 years... that is a long time. i wonder if you might explain the transition to dn? can you also explain the presence of god and how that is experienced? no worries if you dont feel like talking about it on a public forum. -- i dont really experience god any more, although i know god is there. can one say that god is the silent center around which the new self emerges, or is that an act of idolotry? how does one even know that silence itself is divine? i dont know, all i can say is that there is often a sense of calm. when one is drawn into meditation, i cant say i encounter any thing, but i emerge out of that meditation feeling somehow nourished. before this point, there was a tangible almost tactile sense of god. now im not even sure if i experience god. i have thought that perhaps the silence is what i once had before i split off and developed ego. when the ground underneath your feet is taken away, one finds this new ground of silence replacing it. perhaps the only way i could describe this form of spontaneous meditation is "relaxing" which demystifies it for me. it was like before this point i had never been able to feel relaxed in my entire body-mind. the tensions in the body seem to be ironed out by this darkness. j. | ||
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| <joe> |
this may also be of some interest to others. starr's translation of john's text emerges from her own process of dn. i found her story quite remarkable: http://www.enotalone.com/article/6560.html | ||
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| <Zoe> |
Hi Joe, Your question as to how one can feel the presence of God and how God is experienced is a very good one, and I shall try to respond to same with my best ability. I assumed it was God, Spirit, (should have made it clearer in my post), but I cannot say without a shadow of a doubt that this overwhelming presence of love I experienced was God for certain. I believed the presence to be God for at that moment I thought of no one else being in utter despair at the time. I pondered about my experience this afternoon, and am glad that you asked this question so that I could clarify same. We all have been so conditioned in our original belief to think of the One God, Spirit, Creator, Father of all and everything, so that at the moment of my deepest agonies I felt certain that the greatest love that I have ever known and/or have experienced, must be God, the Father. There was no living body with me, just the sensing, intuition, and feeling within my whole being of this beloved presence embracing all of me with its love, until my heart practically overflowed in total bliss and surrender. It could have been Father, Holy Spirit, Christ, Divine Mother, an Archangel, my own higher self, or some loving spirit, etc. that came to comfort and help me during this difficult time. We must remain open at all times to the unknowing, yet trust. It is only within the last five years that I have been deeply in communion with Divine mother in my prayers and meditations. I am now also having visions, almost nightly, of looking at the back of a black double triangle, upper triangle with apex upward joined in the middle to a triangle with the apex downwards, both as one, pure black, and in front of this joined triangle, I see an abundance of great radiant white light. Since I see the triangle from the back, there are no identifiable womenly features on this vision, nor do I belief some womenly features are in the front, and like John the Divine, I wonder greatly. Is she the woman clothed with the sun.......???. I hope I was of some help to you, Joe. | ||
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| <Zoe> |
Joe, great link. Little to add by me except to say quote: "Dark night is the soul's need and longing for transcendence. The need is instinctual and unavoidable for each and every one of us". This pretty much describes my transition into DN, with the addition of the soul's great yearning and desire to be free. I just take each day at a time now. The past is gone and the future unknown. I find it difficult to relive the first couple of years of this spiritual journey by expressing them in words. Some things I find just cannot be put into words at all, there are no words to describe some experiences unless one lives through them themselves. Saint John's work is a true blessing, and thanks to him having been able to express what I and others find hard to do. Joe, you are doing a great service by your sharing. All is greatly appreciated. | ||
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| <joe> |
Zoe, Thanks for expressing your journey in words. It also gives me some sense of how to confront my own: and to alleviate the anxiety which can come with being plunged into... I guess ones soul can make a pact with God and move forward while our senses lag behind. DN may be a time when our senses catch up with our soul. At some point, we may have made a decision to surrender without condition. At that time, we never knew the consequences. We wooed the Beloved and even if we were simply flirting, the Beloved took us seriously. At some points, I wish I just had a one night stand Yet at the same moment, I can say that when I begin to relax into that, I realize there is no other healing.Some of my reflections on this today: I yearn for the silence that brings about a relaxation of defence mechanisms (knots) where there is nothing to experience, and I emerge out of it simply 'relaxed.' I realize that is only 'outcome' I can use to describe silence. Even as I say I yearn for it, I dont know what it is. In fact, I can hardly yearn for it. It is there, magnetic. It has always been there. It is nothing I can know. (Trying to describe this becomes difficult). Suffice it to say that today there is much more relaxation. I feel if I wanted to, I could relax into the darkness and vanish. Yet there is no need to enter into it. Even as I work, it is there -- like a radiant black thread which guides my work. If I open or close my eyes, there would be the same awareness which is not a state. We can use terms like enlightenment, but in our age they seem meaningless. I like the term surrender, because it much closer to what we start to experience as the silence draws us in, unfolds us into its labyrinth of love. Yet I can't say my experience is that of love. I dont even know what I experience. -- Guidance is of utmost importance at this time, and I think it is very hard to find it in our day and age. This is probably the most important thing I have to say. If I didnt have any guidance, I would most likely feel much more disoriented. -- Thanks again for your generous sharing. And for this space to explore these issues. j. | ||
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| <Zoe> |
Hi Joe, Wonderful words you share which resonate with my state of being, which is ever changing, like quote: "I don't even know what I experience". Are we just transforming through the dark night, and are we also in a state called enlightenment, together with the kundalini, new birth, etc. I personally do not like to label anything anymore although everyone seems to desire the right definitions for all these processes. I prefer to call all processes of transformations simply "the death of the old reborn as a new creature.Joe, you returned to Christianity after leaving a teacher and community, as well as studies of Sufism. May I ask who your teacher was?, and was it a community centered in Hindu teachings?. For me all these spiritual processes have opened my heart to embrace also teachings of Buddhism and Hinduism. I used to be a devout practitioner of the Judeo-Christian religion, and now have found the love of God within the other religions as well. The truth is that all labels of religions are falling away as well as my awareness grows in the realization of the love of God in all. This seems to be right for me, and may not hold true for another. Quote: "I could relax into the darkness and vanish". That sounds so good, I wish to join you there. | ||
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| <Joe> |
Zoe, I was born into a Muslim family and I have come to embrace my religion. My first teacher was Sri Chinmoy. He was a good teacher for me at the time. I joined his path when I was 19 and remained there until I was around 25. A year later, I was later initiated into a Sufi order. All of this has past and I dont feel drawn any more to teachers, or teachings. I do have a guide now but more like a mentor who has been through all of this himself. I think it's healthy to know where one is at and to have a couple of distinctions, as it helps us to move. I'm not sure what precisely I'm going through any more. All I can say is that it's nice to have some moments of reprieve (there is some peace, but I can't seem to recollect them when they occur). I'm also not certain about the effects darkness I experience. All I can say (in terms of the good it has done me) is that it relaxes me profoundly. The memory and imagination dont function properly in it. Maybe this is part of why the relaxation is so total. Yet there is still a self there. One cant want any thing really, because there isnt much content in fecund darkness to want. Whether or not this is a movement towards 'enlightenment' or not, I cannot say. Ill tell you in a couple of years. j.
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| <Zoe> |
Your former teacher, Sri Chinmoy, was a highly beloved soul and a loss to the world. I have not studied your religion, know little about it, but feel inspired to learn more about same. I agree that distinctions between processes are helpful in their discernment of one from the other, yet find few agreements among religious scholars. For me the sum total of all and every spiritual process is to fall into the heart of God with an incomprehensible love, surrender and trust. There was a time I thought I knew so many things, and now I find few absolutes. Everything depends upon faith, and the light that shines in the darkness, yet darkness is where we come from, black matter. I love this poem and share same: "You darkness that I come from". Thomas Aquinas once said, "One thing that remains completely unknown in this life, namely, what God is". http://www.cliftonunitarian.co...essthaticomefrom.htm Joe, it is a blessing to have exchanged thoughts, ideas, and my teeny knowledge with you. Thank you, Phil, for allowing unregistered individuals to post. I, personally, respect and honor this board's Christian beliefs and appreciate having the opportunity to express my views. Thank you. Zoe | ||
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| <Joe> |
Hi Zoe, I have been thinking about Rilke lately as well. Merton has some interesting thoughts on Rilke in his journals. At one point Rilke was afraid of dealing with his demons because he thought if he lost his demons he would also lose his angels. I find that interesting, although I have never had tremendous faith in those archetypes to effect any lasting change. It seems as though Merton himself, towards the end of his life, started to go through dark night of the spirit. It is sad that he died before this process was completed. I generally trust his readings of Rilke, Joyce and others. Yes, SC was a great loss to the world. I was fortunate enough to have him write me personally, blessing my leaving his path. That personal letter came many years after I left and gave me confidence that I had done the right thing. For a couple of years, I wasn't certain, as there was a tremendous grace available on his path. I have been thinking about darkness again, and your phrase 'black matter' struck a chord. I think there is a darkness that obliterates presence, time and space. I was re-reading Father Keatings last night on his distinctions between prayer of quiet and prayer of union. In the latter, he states that memory and imagination are suspended, whereas in the former, he suggests that certain faculties are free to have their play. This distinction helped me to consider my experience of prayer as not being simply 'blanked out.' For when we are just blanked out, there is not the relaxation and sense of being at peace. Rather after being blanked out, the imagination and memory kick back in. Maharshi used to talk about these distinctions. He used the term 'laya' to talk about blanking out. The peace that accompanies prayer (and I was thinking of prayer as an encounter with a black hole), by contrast, results in a deepening of peace and some sense of humility. Although, Im not certain how to define humility any more. Yesterday, I saw that subject and object collapse in this encounter with 'black matter' as you have so aptly called it. I was on the bus looking at people and they were not separate from me. This didn't last long, but I align this experience with the deepening. Im not certain that one can logically consent to this 'black hole.' There is nothing one can do when they are face to face with nothingness. It is not something one can produce, nor is the oneness something one can acquire. In any case, it has been an honor discussing this with you. And thanks to Phil for allowing a heathen to speak on Christian board (just kidding). Teresa's prayer is lovely way to end my posts here: Let nothing disturb you nothing frighten you, all things are passing; Patient endurance attains all things: one whom God possesses wants nothing for God alone suffices.
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| <joe> |
i have been advised by a friend not to talk too much about this, or even reflect on these matters. so i will stop posting on this topic. thanks again phil and zoe for your generous sharing and advice. peace, j. ill end on this note. found this yesterday. VERSE OF THE HAN (Incised on the han at Koko An) Completely freed from yes and no; great emptiness charged within; no questions, no answers; like a fish, like a fool.
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