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Dear friends over there, Thanks for the suggestions. I feel that shiatsu helps me a lot (notwithstanding all pain after treatment) to get more relaxed. My body is much less tensed than some weeks ago. He advices me also to join a G. Roth dance group (5 rhythms) on Saturdays. What you are saying, katy and Dhyana, is very important indeed. I have finished reading 'The numinous' by Tjeu van den Berk, all about symbolic consciousness, numinous experiences and so forth... building on Jung, Eliade, Pavese,... a wonderful book! Through painting, playing (Jung was playing like a child when he was more that 70 years old!), walking, being immersed in nature... one sort of 'prepares the ground', or better these are experiences (beautiful is 'artist dates'!!!) that are important in and of themselves! The advaita teacher says the same about expanding body consciousness. So, I think that I don't h | ||||
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Dear friends over there, Thanks for the suggestions. The shiatsu practice has wonderful results (notwithstanding the pain after each treatment): my body is less tensed, there is more relaxation. I have finished the book 'The Numinous' by Tjeu van den Berk: a wonderful book about 'numinous experiences'of all kinds (building on Jung, Eliade, Campbell, Drewermann, Goethe, Pavese, Rahner...), symbolic consciousness, initiation and so forth... I feel the puzzle is gradually coming together, but I am still too much of a 'head-man'. The shiatsu teacher advices me also to join a G. Roth dancing group (5 rhythms). I love dancing and I think all these are wonderful ideas right now: dancing, playing (Jung was playing as a child when he was over 70!), painting... The advaita master says the same on expanding body consciouness... Only, I am still so interested in all this that the danger of 'spiritual materialism' and wishing to analyze things is still present! Then I want to 'know' (?) how things are related (f.e. on Hindu anthropology and Christian anthropology), but why should I have to 'know' this as Katy rightly pointed out! At the same time, there is of course a richness and esthetical (numinous?) joy in reading books and in reflection... Question =) Phil re. Jung and the others: it is widely said that Jung is overly 'gnostic'. What do you think, Phil, about this approach (in spirituality, catechesis... see Rahner!) from below, which means departing from human (numinous)experiences of a 'mystery' over against the approach from above -imposed- (revelation, dogmatics, rationalism...)? How can the two lines come together? Is it all about uncovering something deep from within (mystagogy as in the first centuries) or hearing something revealed from outside/above (Paul: we believe through hearing the word)? I think this is a main question in this time. Many many Christians have been demythologizing Christian faith under the influence of Western, (post)modern way of thinking (see f.e. Bultmann) and at the same time they cannot get at the unconscious (personal, collective) because of this overly rationalistic attitude! I think that appropriate symbols, rituals, ... are of utmost importance now! I went for the first time to an Orthodox service and enjoyed the mysterious liturgy. In Roman Catholicism because of Vatican II things have been lost!!! All this has of course implications for one's way of praying and one's whole spirituality! Meditation and that sort of things (playing, listening to Bach, seeing good movies, artistic activities...) are all about reducing, lessening the level, the treshold (?) of consciousness in order to 'unload the unconscious' (Keating), which is a much broader approach to religion (what does this mean ethymologically: re-ligare or re-legere???) and spirituality, while devotional prayer, which I don't want to get rid of either is all about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. F.e.: in the week-end I went to a wonderful concert of the 'Requiem' of Mozart and afterwards felt prompted to pray the rosary and other vocal prayers... Other times I only practice some vipassana meditation...Am I maybe too much fighting with either/or while it is all about and/and? Again: is Jung in the first place a gnostic or is his contribution to a better (symbolic) understanding of Scripture and Christianity indispensable? Greetings, Fred | ||||
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Sorry, the first message above was sent unintentionally!!! Fred | ||||
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Still this: A talk given to our local ISCAST group may be found at http://www.iscast.org.au/pdf/SoulNewman.pdf Robert Associate Professor Robert Stening Senior Visiting Fellow School of Physics, UNSW, Sydney 2052 Australia Phone 61-2-9385 4584 (work) 61-2-9498 2710 (home) Fax 61-2-9385 6060 E-mail: R.Stening@unsw.edu.au Web: www.phys.unsw.edu.au CRICOS Provider Code: 00098G | ||||
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| <joe> |
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| <joe> |
I have been reading this discussion with a lot of interest. I also am going through dark night of the soul for four years or so. I'm interested in other people's experience of dark night and what were the original experience(s) that thrust them into dark night; how they confirmed that they were indeed in dark night, rather than suffering from melancholoy, or depression; if you received guidance for dark night. It seems that dark night brings about a stillness in the mind. This seemed to be a neutral result and one that can often be terrifying, as the memory doesn't function in the manner that it once did. I often am walking on the street, or thinking through a problem, or simply talking to someone in conversation and I suddenly forget where I am and what I am doing. I cannot pray as I once did, or even envision a God. At first, this seemed terrifying. Ones sense of self becomes more fluid and suspect. One feels literally as though they are entering 'nothing' and that certainly is not a pleasant experience for the self. Then, one ossilates between a more spontaneous nature and another self which is like a wall. Do you experience/live in this dark night? I don't really find images in that dark night, but I certainly do sense that in ones helplessness, at rock bottom, there is a deeper body awareness. One cannot but be in the body, hammered into a humility as this night drags on. From this, I have learned to accept. I'm not certain if this is dark night, but it certainly seems to fit the descriptions described by John of the Cross and others. I am wondering if people live in this? I don't experience Kundalini really and if I do, I tend to ignore it. This is what my mentor taught me and it has done me a lot of good. Yours, Joe.
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| <Joe> |
It almost seems profane to talk about God in dark night; deep aversion for spiritual books exercises. I guess in all of this I have also learned more about trust. It is not idleness, but an attentiveness to....what, I can't even conceptualize, or put 'it' into language. If I were to call it any thing at all, it would be nothing that is 'me,' although of course it must relate to me in some way -- and hence I am learning to connect what I once mistakenly thought was 'transcendent' to that which is in fact always with me -- yet the body could not accept it because it believed to be apart from it. And so I have begun to train the body to not disassociate from 'it,' which has been its habit. I wonder if this is more akin to 'dark night,' or more akin to so-called 'enlightenment' -- something which I'm doubtful even exists. Again, I am wary of even speaking about it as it seems profane to speak of it. Suffice it to say that even if (a) I live in a space which is often like hell, I have learned to simply trust. If spiritual experiences come, I attach little importance to them, as they come and go. What do you think?
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| <joe> |
Thanks, Zoe. That is the answer that others have given me as well: Father Keatings, and a few other mentors. Yet one sometimes feels as though they are going mad. It is the interuption of ones own 'soul' that makes the transformation seem 'sane.' However, the 'nothingness' is very strange. Did you distinguish between the 'soul' (let's say that part of ourselves which is submitted to the divine authority, waits in humilty) between 'nothingness'? What is 'nothingness.' By this, I am referring to that which even questions our memory... The only good I can see from this silencing of the memory is often I have an experience, an argument or something and then the next moment the emotional charge of that has vanished. Part of me attempts to grasp what has vanished, but it cannot be grasped. I do feel loved and guided. I also feel that God is tyrannical to put someone through this when he never asked for it. | ||
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| <Joe> |
also how long does this last for most people? I find it a battle which is doomed for failure for the self, because God is all powerful. Yet God cannot be known, is nowhere in sight, hearing, touch... how can one speed up the process? these are all questions which are self-generated. kundalini seems simply an effect of transformation, not the cause, or its desired result. what do you think? i have found what i called transcendent is not the way i imagined it. once it seems to be somewhere else, but this is only because we have separated from it at a certain stage of identification with self. so at first 'transformation' seemed to feel disassociational. i have found that the body has be trained to move into it, and as soon as it enters into it, the silence becomes more associational. did you experience this? at this point, what i thought was transcendent was now something else. it was inside me, around me. the silence becomes incorporated into life in this way. then there is not much more to talk about. of course, there is still a battle, but who can fight it? is there some disciple, some practice that is not bound for failure? i found that on my way, what i am learning is that 'good' and 'bad' experiences have to be accepted -- but they are not to be indulged in. that's all. but the suffering that god puts on the soul, is so intense that without his grace, we cannot get through. at the end of all this what do you find? how can not one be angry with a vengeful god, who first creates us and then destroys us?
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| <Zoe> |
Quote: "I do feel loved and guided". Joe, here are the answers to all your questions....It is Mother Wisdom. In Praise of Wisdom For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she is a vapor of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her. For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God's majesty, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom. Wisdom 7:24-30 | ||
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| <joe> |
thank you, zoe. that is absolutely beautiful. who wrote it? joe | ||
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| <Zoe> |
Joe, am so happy to hear that you loved "In Praise of Wisdom". In this beautiful passage from the apocryphal "Book of Wisdom", the virtue of holy wisdom is personified as something akin to a breath from God, a sacred and undefiled force that prevails over every evil and inspires holy souls in every generation. Bless you, Joe. | ||
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| <joe> |
Thank you, Zoe. I found a copy of it online and I'm reading it. Bless you too and thanks again. Joe | ||
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Great exchange, Joe and Zoe. I have little to add except to say that a spiritual dark night does indeed profoundly change the way we experience God, ourselves, our interests, etc. We've had another discussion on this topic here and a wonderful Internet series by Loretta Ross: https://shalomplace.org/eve/forums Gerald May wrote a good book on this topic shortly before he died; you can find it on Amazon.com Phil | ||||
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| <Joe> |
Thanks so much for the links, Phil. Ill be reading them over the coming weeks. These are my personal observations on the benefits of dark night 1. deeper intimacy with God 2. less need for a strategic relationship with God, where the devotee asks for benefits, which unconsciously serve to solidify ones own self and ones own image of God. 3. a realization that memory serves the project of the self and a consequent undermining of the memory. i relate this to the vertiginous sensation that john discusses. for the self rooted in memory of past experiences grounded in false self, past traumas, past grudges, in short, for memory rooted in false self. when one starts to realize this, memory doesnt disappear, but is more context driven. memory comes when it is needed, in order to remain functional in dark night. 4. increase of grace, but in a different manner than before, less images (at least in my case). experiences come and go. the formation of a silent self which observes the comings and goings of self and the after effects of union with god which cannot be described in words. 5. when all is correctly aligned and less resistance, the process increases all sorts of issues of ego. so that ego becomes intolerable. 6. self doesnt disappear, but is realigned to the silent center. 7. increase of pressures in the body which one dilgently ignores so that god can do her work. if one focuses on these, rather than trusting god, then the dark night becomes torturous and lengthy. 8. loss of friendships that were not correctly founded, but based on codependency of two false selves. these are a few key issues which i have noticed over the years. the less interference the better. unfort, this is easier said than done. joe
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That's a great summary, Joe. Should make everyone want to run out and go through the Dark Night, right?  | ||||
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| <Joe> |
Not very good advertising... It definitely helps to have someone who has been through it as a personal guide. Also to make sure that one remains functional. Perform ones duties even if the mind doesn't work in the way it once did. Not to talk much about it (make a big deal) except with someone one can trust have been through it. It took me a while to figure all this out. Before this point, I found myself resisting the slowness of mind, for example. It often amazes me how restless I may feel and how other people remark 'you look calm.' I'm not entirely certain whether I'm deliberately concealing my restlessness, or if peace manifests through it. All I can say is that, life becomes simplified. Things drop away. One can read, although reading can also prove to be difficult. One can try to do things which in the end seem futile. Wandering around in ones emotional patterns, one finally begins to snap out of them. Ultimately, one will have to face themselves and every thing that separates them love. Although there doesn't seem to be love here, but, at best, a restfulness that is physically felt ones the entire psychology. At worst, the degree of silence/restfulness seems disassociative. Dont know any thing. Is where one ends up. But not with the anxiety to know. | ||
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| <Joe> |
This is a very helpful link for reflecting on dark night -- albeit from a multitude of differing religious paradigms/viewpoints: http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.c...age/page/1523597.htm | ||
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All very good, Joe. And your post two above gives another nice summary. One needs to become accustomed to inner silence and it takes awhile to get used to the absence of intentional consciousness. It's as though one is in a sailboat in the ocean but no breezes are blowing. Should we break out the oars and "try to get somewhere?" No, just wait. Gentle breezes do come up.  | ||||
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| <Zoe> |
Thanks for the link, Joe. Lots of info to ponder about. I present a link to rebirth of the soul, an article written by Deepak Chopra. http://www.resurgence.org/2006/chopra234.htm Personally, I have thoughts of similar beliefs expressed by Mr. Chopra. I do think it possible that one can have a rebirth of the soul while still in a living body. I cannot explain in words what I intuitively feel and know regarding this rebirth, except to say that same has happened in some people already. In the advancement of spiritual evolution we have several processes and transformations taking place within humanity. There is the classic description of the dark night of the soul by Saint John, the new birth, kundalini process, and a re-birthing of souls within people without needing reincanation and a new body. I am sure that more research will show that soul rebirth is a reality. | ||
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| <Zoe> |
I found the words to describe what the meaning of soul rebirth within a living person means to me. It is a metamorphosis of the soul, like a caterpillar that turns into a beautiful butterfly. It is the sacred grace from God that lifts a descending soul from the murky waters and its roots below by giving it wings to lift it upwards into the light. May we all grow soul wings of love and be lifted above. | ||
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| <joe> |
thanks for these links, phil and zoe. the arraj articles and discussion forums were excellent in explaining and sharing this experience. i still have difficulty understanding all this because i there may be many things going on at once. there is dark night of soul and spirit and there is kundalini. i think it is quite important to understand the connections between these stages of growth and how they might differ, and i think most of my questions have been answered by referring to the arraj articles. the peace which accompanies an upheaval of dark night is hard to describe in words. sometimes there is the need to simply sit, although my whole being may resist it. then the awareness sinks down into a restfulness. it is deeply relaxing and profoundly enjoyable, yet there is not really a sense that the enjoyment is the enjoyment that one could connect to the sensible part of ones nature. i dont feel bliss, in other words, or ecstasy, or any thing of that nature. it is like a darkness that holds the world, that is nourishing, enriching, but there is no sense of any accomplishment when one goes back to ones ordinary tasks. and there is often still a connection to it. in this peace is objective awareness. before this moment we have only known ourselves through via memory, through how we imagine others to perceive us. if subjective consciousness is like a ship on an ocean. than this objective pole is an anchor to something real, lasting. in dn, we seem to be moving in and out of subjective and objective consciousness. the dark night is the beginning of the formation of a self that is submitted to the divine, and the ego will do every thing to prevent this. ultimately, it will exhaust itself, but this process is often exhausting. for me it has been 3-4 years of turmoil. best wishes to you both, j
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| <joe> |
I guess I am still left with one question, that is what is between kataphatic and apophatic forms of prayer and contemplation. By this, I am asking any one here whether kataphatic is directly linked, rather than opposed to apophatic. I am struck by the image of the Virgin Mary, who I deeply connect to, and she is also a major part what is my own tradition, that is, Sufism. In our tradition, I connect: "there is no God but God" to contemplative practice. Yet, I also feel deeply drawn and nourished by Mary, and there is a surah dedicated to her in the Quran. Now without creating, a row here, I am wondering if there is any theological, or Biblical link with Mary as, the being a connecting link between apophatic and kataphatic forms of prayer. I often spontaneously feeling this blessed presence, as much as I attempted to ignore it, in favor of a more apophatic approach to prayer, it is at times difficult to ignore. It is often there in the background. I feel now that feeling this nourishing presence may actually help to link me to contemplative prayer. In other words, I recognize my own abject humanity, and the need to listen to the presence of Mary, so that she can guide me to the silence where God and I are more intimate. - The other sense is that apophatic prayer can often show me the objective dimension of consciousness where I literally see my own judgments as marring the silence. They appear in the silence, and often I am able to simply observe them. Other times, my own judgments destroy the silence entirely. So my question is: does Mary link the image to the Word. | ||
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| <Zoe> |
Quote: I still have difficulty understanding all this because i there may be many things going on at once. there is dark night of soul and spirit and there is kundalini. i think it is quite important to understand the connections between these stages of growth and how they might differ........... I find your words, Joe, absolutely delightful and true comparing your shared spiritual experiences, thoughts, beliefs, opinions and ideas, with mine, so far, always with your question mark as to were you are in this spiritual transformation. What if I tell you that there is no set pattern to follow, only guidance from others having gone through this process and the ones who are partaking of same right now. Actually I find this very same unknowing very challenging and exciting and remember asking a holy man for definite answers. His reply was that there really was no set amswers to this mystical and blessed grace fromn God, and that is why it is called mystical. I have been in a birthing process for the last twelve years. Much phenomena of light, surrender to life on life's terms, letting go of the past, seeking solitude, and non involvement with worldly things, finding peace, serenity and trust within myself, letting go of needs and wants, literally chiselling myself down to the bare essentials of human existence and experiencing the greatest joy within this journey of wholeness and birthing anew. Kundalini for me has been the most gentlest and kindest of mothers, a mother surely from above. I see a unity of body-soul and oneness with my fellow man and refrain from separating anything into split off parts of my being. My human heart, love, played the main role and continues to be a powerful part in this birthing and I belief all our hearts are God's abode and the true birthing center. Did I experience a coming together of spirit and water, yes, indeed, and there is no denying that a merger of same is a must for all of us. I have a very close companion, my indweller, call same Atman, or Mother wisdom, Holy Spirit. The same is in you, Joe, and I would say is the main guide in your transformation with the help of scriptures, scholars, etc. You seem to be in a stable good place. Hope to see you on the highway to heaven. | ||
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