From shasha:

quote:

Elsewhere on this board, I've mentioned that I thought there were different kinds of enlightenment. I believe that you agreed with me on this. Do you think it's possible that some kinds of enlightenment actually do oppose the goal of Christianity?

It might be more helpful to use the term "states of consciousness" to describe these various experiences. As to their beneficial aspects, one would have to evaluate them in terms of the fruits of the Spirit. With Christian mystical experiences, one has a distinct sense of the higher states of consciousness being very much about union with Christ in the Holy Spirit -- so much so that it would not occur to one to say, "Who needs Christ?" It's all about relationship with Christ, and the higher states are known in this context. That is quite different from the kinds of experiences of the deep Self where one is more aware of one's existence/being than God's. I don't think those experiences are necessarily bad or evil, unless one concludes from them that one is somehow divine. God is surely "there" in those experiences of the deep Self, but in a hidden manner, as the giver of its existence, rather than a relational partner. So much depends on how one understands what's going on . . . one's theological and philosophical perspective. Can one have an experience of enlightenment/deep Self and enjoy it while still knowing oneself to be a creature who stands in absolute dependence on God? I don't see why not, but I know that the interpretive paradigm of Hinduism -- especially as mediated by some gurus -- mitigates against this sort of thing, making enlightenment the goal and end. Same goes for some New Age pathways. Methinks some of these gurus/teachers still have a bit too much of a sense of self-importance to be the real deal.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
...Methinks some of these gurus/teachers still have a bit too much of a sense of self-importance to be the real deal.

Not only that; I think some of them "invented" their own enlightenment.

I saw an interesting book the other day, it is called "half-way up the mountain - the error of premature claims to enlightenment". Looks like it may be relevant to this discussion, has anybody read it?

quote:

Originally posted by Jacques:
I saw an interesting book the other day, it is called "half-way up the mountain - the error of premature claims to enlightenment". Looks like it may be relevant to this discussion, has anybody read it?

I�m afraid I haven�t, Jacques.
But perhaps I can share one of my favourite little quotes on this issue? It goes something like this:

"As he walks his path, the True Searcher will from time to time encounter others, including groups of people sitting on fertile fields by a brook, feasting and congratulating each other that they have arrived.

When they say: "Please, brother, won�t you join us?" -- then the Searcher must hurry onward alone, away from temptation, and not look back."

Hello Phil:

I wasn't sure if this was the appropriate discussion to post this but since it does include
non dual states it seemed fitting.

I see now that i misunderstood what you were refering to as ego.
I had expressed earlier that i felt there were different levels of ego. That the
ego we start the purification process with is not the same level of ego
in relationship with YHWH that we experience later in our development.

I have been understanding some things since on the list last. Mostly i asked
if i am experiencing states of consciousness that are not
normally experienced by Christians. For
me it has to do with what beliefs one has about YHWH and what limitations
one is placing on YHWH. Relationship can have different meanings to
people.

When i was deep in my contemplative practice i started experiencing things
and developing abilities that one may not normally find in Christian contemplative
practices. Yet this was occurring while under Christian spiritual guidance and direction for several years. I later found out i have Native heritage that i had never been told about.
But none of this was understood at the time.

I would say that any variation in states i may have have to do with my Native heritage
and what my role within our tribe would have been if our culture had survived.
Yet all this developed under a deep love and connection with Christ. So personally
i see nothing wrong in what's occurring.

The past couple of days i have
been reminded of Tony DeMello and how much he loved the Native Hindu peoples
I never heard him demean them in any way. And i remember an elder nun and 2
ladies i met who live with a Native American tribe. There is a deep mutual love between
these ladies and the tribal people. This was all before i
consciously knew about my heritage. There is for
me a growing love for each part of my heritage.


Ajoy

Hello HeartPrayer:

At first it was very confusing for me to
understand that there are some very different
understandings of Enlightenment. And certainly
many paths. What i have seen is that some
believe it is the mind that is enlightened.
Some believe its the body and some believe
its both. Many practices are different and I do believe the end results are different.
Ajoy

[/QUOTE]Not only that; I think some of them "invented" their own enlightenment. [/QB][/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by Ajoy:
When i was deep in my contemplative practice i started experiencing things
and developing abilities...

I later found out i have Native heritage that i had never been told about.
But none of this was understood at the time.

I would say that any variation in states i may have have to do with my Native heritage
and what my role within our tribe would have been if our culture had survived.

Ajoy

Sometimes, perhaps, roots survive in ways that surpass our understanding.

What seems forever gone, may yet again sprout from an unseen place -- within ourselves, or between persons when the germination of a seed is triggered by a true encounter.

Those seeds, dormant or germinating, are your heritage. When they sprout within you, that culture is still alive!

And that is a living treasure.

HeartPrayer:

Your words were like a beautiful rose. Elegant to look at with a frangrance to touch the Heart.

Thank you
Ajoy

QUOTE]Sometimes, perhaps, roots survive in ways that surpass our understanding.

What seems forever gone, may yet again sprout from an unseen place -- within ourselves, or between persons when the germination of a seed is triggered by a true encounter.

Those seeds, dormant or germinating, are your heritage. When they sprout within you, that culture is still alive!

And that is a living treasure. [/QB][/QUOTE]

These are great exchanges. I'm vacationing for a few days and only getting around now to checking in. Delightful to see the sharing, here!

HeartPrayer,

I think the gurus I know would agree with you that their enlightenment did come from God, but that God moved through their own guru's hand. And I don't think the gurus I know "invented" their enlightenment. The description of their experience is consistent with their scripture on becoming one with I AM THAT.


Phil--

you wrote:

That is quite different from the kinds of experiences of the deep Self where one is more aware of one's existence/being than God's. I don't think those experiences are necessarily bad or evil, unless one concludes from them that one is somehow divine.
------------------

Precisely. There are many who conclude they are, in fact, divine. That's the thrust of the Eastern path of enlightenment, that divinity is you and is just waiting to be realized. OK, we'll call it different states of consciousness, but still the common denominator is a back-drop experience of non-duality, what I describe as swimming in unity consciousness.

But with the gurus I've known who are clearly enjoying enlightenment and put others in this state, there is *additionally* an energy which sustains the illusion that they are God. There is no relationship. Period. No self, no other who is distinct from you, no God, no nothing, just one throbbing mass of drunken ecstacy, inside and out, infinity and beyond. This energy has no name, no motive, no mission. You sleep and wake up in this energy. You see no distinction between good and evil; you see no choices as good or bad because all distinctions are an illusion. You have no personal self and so there is nothing to care about, no desires, no aversions. In fact, because there is no 'you' and no 'other', you are not even taking any action. The 'you' you project to the world is just a role that you play for the sake of being polite, so you pretend because you are stuck in this body.

This is what I call evil.

you wrote:
------------------------------------------
With Christian mystical experiences, one has a distinct sense of the higher states of consciousness being very much about union with Christ in the Holy Spirit -- so much so that it would not occur to one to say, "Who needs Christ?"
--------------------------------------

No, *you* would not think that Phil because you have never been exposed to this energy.

You have never been on the brink of losing your soul.

Shasha, I think you might have misunderstood my point, which was that Christian mystical experience has an orientation to a transcendent Other, and therefore isn't likely to leave one confused on the matter of inner divinity. That's obviously different from the kinds of non-dual experiences you're describing above.

No, I am *agreeing* with your point. We seem to be pointing to two different states of consciousness--which I was thinking of as different "forms of enlightenment."

1 - the Christian mystical experience with it's "orientation to a transcendent other"

2 - the non-dual states that powerful gurus can transmit that are infused with an energy that obliterates self and God distinctions and gives one the conviction of complete, ecstatic self-sufficiency.

Sorry for my confusing writing. I will have to think of a clearer way to talk about this subject before launching into it any further.

Thanks for your patience.

That's OK, Shasha. The traditional Christian term for those higher states is "contemplation" or "mystical experience" rather than enlightenment. I like to speak of "states of consciousness" and describe different kinds (enlightenment, contemplation, etc.). The terminilogy can be confusing.

I think the guru-induced non-dual states you describe might indeed be sophisticated illusions of some kind. No one can really attain the divine perspective without grace, as HP noted above, so whatever is going on in those non-dual states ought to reflect something of the divine "attitude" -- love. It also ought to recognize and affirm the reality of creatures.

I've been reading the book "The Kundalini Experience" by Dr. Lee
Sannella. He mentions the "God-Intoxicated Masts of India." Don't
know if this is what Shasha is talking about but it seemed like it might be.

They are held in high esteem within their religious tradition. It is experienced
that through them there are spiritual influences that serve the human race, although they may seem quite psychotic to some.

There was mentioned that their power was of a primal level rather than of the mind or heart. I had been wondering about this energy that Shasha
was talking about that held these folks in this state of consciousness. It would seem to be what is being called "Primal Energy".

Apparently this is seen as a different form of Sainthood in the Hindu culture
and religion than those who are Saints of the mind or heart. I'd been wondering why Gopi Krishna was so different from the description of God-Intoxicated even though he is a Hindu Saint with a Kundalini awakening.

So it would seem like Phil has been saying that different practices open one up to different states of consciousness. Or one could say different forms of Enlightenment.

Does anyone know what this primal energy is Dr. Lee Sannella is talking about? Or does anyone know if Bede Griffiths has spoken about this?

Thank you very much
Ajoy

On second thought perhaps it is not this primal energy. In Dr. Sannella's book
i am getting the impression that it may be the
Collective energy of the religious sect itself that is holding the Mast together. This Mast is
in this state of ecstasy.

I have an interest in this as i have a friend who
talks about this state of constant ecstasy and i
simply have not been able to understand what she
was talking about.

I have found that Bede Griffith has written alot
on Primal Energy but I have not had a chance to
read anything yet.

Ajoy

quote:

Originally posted by Ajoy:
[qb] There was mentioned that their power was of a primal level rather than of the mind or heart. I had been wondering about this energy that Shasha
was talking about that held these folks in this state of consciousness. It would seem to be what is being called "Primal Energy".

Apparently this is seen as a different form of Sainthood in the Hindu culture
and religion than those who are Saints of the mind or heart.
[/qb]

I've not heard it described that way, Ajoy, as a primal energy vs. being enlightened at the mind or heart level...but, again, this is consistent with my experience that there are different kinds of unity consciousness. But we just have one word, enlightenment, describing different states, and this is problematic.

I've wondered too about the different, but largely similar, descriptions of enlightenment by people like David Hawkins, Eckart Tolle, Gopi Krishna, in addition to those I have experienced of Swami M. and a few other's.

The yogi/guru who initiated me into his power is the one who said to a group of us that he is "playing with the energies of creation" and has a huge lingum temple in India which allegedly is a living source of his power. During an long intensive with him, I recall that he included a worship portion but off-handedly remarked that he just did that in order to meet our human needs to worship an other, but that he clearly regarded this as a kind of superficial "feel-good" devise for the sakes of our staying interested in his program of kundalini manipulation.

He shared with me this "primal energy," but I am sure it is evil, and not because it is not integrated into the heart level of service or surrender, but simply pure evil which seduces folks away from God. This I might call luciferic enlightenment...it will convince you that you are God. Being in his presence was very weird. Each time my eyes would make contact with him, I'd see nobody there, and I kept being a little shocked at this unreality of an empty shell. He would say does not exist because his consciousness has merged with divine consciousness, but I tend to agree with folks like Tal Brooke who argue that these folks have actually mortgaged themselves to another spirit, a kind of possession, but not of the Holy Spirit.

At the same time, this guy bears some of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

God's not done with us yet...

Thanks for sharing of your ideas, Ajoy.

much peace and Christ's love to you and your family,

Shasha

Hi Shasha and Phil:

The whole time i've been on this list i have wanted to understand
how non-dual states fit into Christianity. I see things a bit
differently than you do Shasha but it has been your sharing of your
experiences and the Guru that has allowed some understanding to come for me.
And it's been Phil's sharing of his experience that has been very helpful also.

And it happened in the middle of last night. If i wasn't already lying
down i would have needed to sit down. If this primal state of
consciousness is what permits non dual states i'm unable to see the state of consciousness itself as
evil.

That being said, if some of mankind, has learned how to manipulate this state
of consciousness for their own uses then I find this sad as their own uses may be up to no good and not for the betterment of mankind.

I also see now that Christianity offers a strong moral/ethical path of both the
Heart and Mind that can permit one to experience the non-dual states
but the focus must remain on relationship with YHWH so as not to fall into the state that this Guru is in. I have seen this happen to a long time Christian minister. Experiencing these states and living in them is two different matters.

Shasha it sounds to me like this Guru totally misrepresented what he was doing to
you. And had no regards for your desire to deepen your Christian relationship.
I can only imagine the depth of violation that you have experienced.


With deep gratitude for both of your sharing
Ajoy

Ajoy, you might think of this "primal energy" (kundalini) as a vibration in our body/soul that is a consequence of awakening to oneself at a deep level of spiritual consciousness. The human soul is spiritual, and its natural awareness goes very deep -- beyond psyche and conceptual consciousness. Kundalini/primal energy vibrates the other levels of our being when we begin to awaken to ourselves more and more deeply at the level of human spirit. As noted above, this can happen in the context of a relationship with Christ, or not -- say, as a consequence of certain spiritual practices. In either case, kundalini is kundalini, only in the context of Christian growth, this primal energy will be under the direction of the Holy Spirit to facilitate integration of body/mind/spirit in the Spirit. That's how I've come to understand things -- what makes sense to me, at least.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
The traditional Christian term for those higher states is "contemplation" or "mystical experience" rather than enlightenment. I like to speak of "states of consciousness" and describe different kinds (enlightenment, contemplation, etc.). The terminology can be confusing.

I think it is necessary to distinguish between "contemplation", "meditation" and "samyama"(absorption, ref. Patanjali). In terms of communication, it is a major problem that there is a lack of precision in the use of such fundamental concepts.

Call it something else, if you will, but these are as different as night, twilight and day.

It is astonishing that Western philosophy (Church and non-Church) has so utterly failed us in this regards. We need a clear, shared language to talk about such things.

HP, there has been, in Catholicism, a deep understanding of what we're now calling "states of consciousness" for many centuries. Distinctions between contemplation and didactic meditation, for example, are quite common, along with in-depth accounts of a wide-range of mystical states, some of which are considered "natural," and others not. There has also been a metaphysical/philosophical accounting for these.

What's new these days is the depthful encounter with other religions and their mystical traditions. Finding a common language to compare, contrast and discern among the religions hasn't been as urgent in the past, as these traditions didn't mix much. So we're in a new place, these days, but we do already have in place in Catholicism an anthropological perspective that enables us to account for a variety of experiences.

You�re right, Phil, both Catholic and Orthodox Christianity is rich in this regards. One of the tragedies of the Reformation, is that what became the Protestant tradition lost touch with contemplative tradition -- perhaps in large degree to Martin Luther being a failed monk.

I was shocked when I visited the monasteries of Mount Athos. No one had told me about these monastic traditions, or voiced much about Christian contemplative practices, for that matter.

Certainly none of the Lutheran pastors in the churches that I attended, no one in the congregation, nor any of Sunday school teachers, nor ordinary school teachers.

I have also been surprised when talking to people who study Western philosophy, that there is close to nil understanding of states of consciousness, contemplative traditions, spiritual schools, or more direct ways of knowing. No practice of "learning how to see", "learning how to know", nor really even "learning how to learn".

The over-intellectualism of Western philosophy strikes me as somewhat of an involuntary joke.

For all that we know, Western philosophy on the one hand, and Christian and other Western spiritual traditions might as well be two islands separated by an unbridgeable ocean.

Yes, the esoteric Orthodox and Catholic contemplative traditions do have their own languages; I stand corrected in this regard. But it seems to have made little impression on language, terminology and structuring of sensitivity of the population at large -- nor in fact on the more exoteric majority of the congregations as a whole.

In my opinion this represents a considerable vacuum.

.

Good point above, HP. Metaphysical philosophy, in particular, has been neglected during the past few centuries. Nevertheless, Catholic philosophers like Maritain have delved into the topic of degrees of knowledge and "mysticism of the Self," contrasting the latter with traditional Christian mystical states. We're still early in our dialogue with the East concerning their mystical traditions -- an exciting time in history. I don't really fault Western philosophers for neglecting the topic, as their focus since the Enlightenment (rational era) has been elsewhere.

The man or woman who is truly Rational, is forced to conced the "limits of reason". As a corrolary then, it is rational to give our other sensibilites, and ways of knowing, their proper place.

There need be no conflict, as also JohnBoy points out in his interesting thread about Physics & Biology, Religion & Theology.

Hello

I'm still reading back posts on this! lol!

I've really been looking deeply at this whole enlightenment experience, and what it has to do with Christianity. I've wrestled and struggled with it because I needed to know. I've listened to Eastern thought, New Age thought, Gnostic thought, and anyone else who had an opinion and gave it to me. I've asked the Holy Spirit to lead me in this exploration. I've looked at my experience and intuition, and what I've learned from the Word. I'd like to bounce my ponderings off whoever is listening. =]

This is all just my opinion in the simplest terms.

The experience of enlightenment is a result of the Creative Energy activating and awakening the chakra system. This is available to all humanity as an evolutionary step.

The experience and Gift that Christ brings to humanity is a separate experience and available only to those who receive His Gift. He opens the door to an organic relationship with the Holy Trinity that has never been available before. This is available with or without the activation of the chakra system. It is more of a spiritual evolution than a human one, leading one into the Divinity of Christ, the Son of God, from glory to glory, in Fellowship forever with the Eternal Trinity, and all who have received His Gift. A different path than entering into Oneness and being alone as God, returning to your true Self.

Maybe this has already been shared here, but it is where my search has brought me, and it rings deeply true in my Spirit.

Thank you for listening and anything you'd care to share.

Love, dhyana