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| <HeartPrayer> |
typo/omission: highly respected Cherokee instructor | ||
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HP et al, you should be able to edit your posts for two hrs. after submitting them. Sounds like a very interest course you took, HP. ----- Check out Types of Consciousness which is a resource I developed around 20 years ago. It helps to point out various possibilities. Of course, sometimes we have these in combinations, so it doesn't always break out into tidy categories. My own experience features a deep resting in Silence, sometimes with explicit sense of divine love, but most often just silent presence. I am very much aware / not unconscious, including of surroundings. But my attention is literally pulled into this silence. It would do no good whatsoever to try to read, think, use active prayer. Glossalalia comes and goes, mostly to sustain balance in the Silence. Sometimes there's an inner movement to praise, or even intercede. There's also a kundalini aspect; the energy is moving to embody this state in the third eye or even higher. Then comes the time when I am "done." I can continue to sit, but the absorption and rest is over. I could not go back there if I tried. So I get up and do a few stretches, or even pray the Gloria or Lord's prayer to help integrate the experience consciously. Inner peace and equanimity are the fruit, along with a sense of what I ought to be about. This is all very much in the genre of infused contemplation as described by so many Christian mystics, especially John of the Cross. It is as though one is lifted into God while remaining oneself. The divine Presence is "dark" or "obscure" but as real as the light from the sun during the day. There is nothing one can "do" to go there, but to consent to the resting. It is all God's work. | ||||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shasha: Hi Shasha: Whether some experience or state of consciousness is seen as functional or dysfunctional has alot to do with the splinter in the eye of the beholder. On top of that is the shape and color of the lenses through which they perceive the experience. Ajoy | ||||
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Ajoy, we can also look at the fruits of the Spirit (or lack thereof) in a person's life to evaluate states of consciousness. So if one speaks of being filled with light, energy, power, psychic gifts, etc., but there's scant evidence of love, joy, peace, patience, etc., we might say that they've had a kind of spiritual awakening, but it's not giving evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit. | ||||
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from Ajoy: ----------------------- Hi Shasha: Whether some experience or state of consciousness is seen as functional or dysfunctional has alot to do with the splinter in the eye of the beholder. On top of that is the shape and color of the lenses through which they perceive the experience. ---------------------------------------------- I am sorry, Ajoy, if something in my discussion has felt like an assault to you, or like I was making some kind of accusation about your experiences. much peace to you and your family, Shasha | ||||
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| <HeartPrayer> |
Most sincere spiritual teachers/schools warn strongly against placing too much emphasis on psychic phenomena. A case in point is Patanjali in his Yoga Sutras (or Yoga Aphorisms, depending on the translation). He includes their description for the sake of completeness -- but in the strongest possible words warns against being overly concerned with these. A spiritual awakening is something else. I�m totally with Phil here -- and looking for evidence of love, compassion, patience etc are excellent tests. Provided these last. Let me expand on that... These qualities should last beyond the length of time of "intoxication" of someone who has "fallen in love" -- even with a religion. Some critics refer to most exoteric religion as religiosity -- as "mood making". It is common to need a new fix after the initial intoxication fades. You might say that there is a world of difference between "falling in love" and "standing in love". So, too, with the human qualities that accompany Awakening. | ||
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Dear friends, I want to share a very powerful experience I had a few days ago. I woke up one morning last week and was irresistably drawn to read and re-read the latter chapters of the Gospel of John in which Jesus tells us that if we love Him, the Father will reveal Himself to us. Stunning, amazing mystery! Later that afternoon, I prayed with my friend Christine. We prayed to be able to experience more of God's Glory. She is really hungry for God and I felt moved to pray earnestly with her. That night, I was lifted up to a heavenly realm...I don't know how long I was there, but there are no words to describe this. There is absolutely nothing on earth, no frame of reference to compare to the Peace and Perfection of this place. I just KNOW it was possible through Christ. I was in a kind of stunned, mute state all day and realized that I am utterly incapable of proper reverance for God and what Christ has made possible for us. This sort of thing has happened to me a few times, and I must share with you that it further defines for me the vast difference between the experience of non-dual reality, a.k.a. enlightenment, and mystical union with God through Christ. As I've said before, they feel like different dimensions altogether. In non-duality, although I am looking "out" at the world through my eyes, I am also looking directly "into" my own self--everywhere I go and everything I do, there I am...there is no escaping this reality of utter connectivity with all of creation. However, this plane of "consciousness" or reality is apart from union with God through Christ. Thank you, Jesus! Thank you,Father. Anyway, I'm off on retreat for the next 3-4 days at a conference with Mahesh Chavda and Bill Johnson. If anybody wishes to join me, let us pray and fast together for drawing closer to God, breakthrough for our families, healing for our brokenness, and receiving all His gifts. We can lift one another up to the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. much love to you all, Shasha | ||||
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| <HeartPrayer> |
That sounds absolutely wonderful, Shasha! Thanks for the inspiration of your sharing.  | ||
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Yes, thank you. What a special grace you describe. I hope your retreat goes well. Come back and tell us more about it. | ||||
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The retreat was fantastic. I would like to share some of it with you, but I think I will have to open a new thread. I was thinking how Christ's mission is so different from the goal of enlightenment...I recall one guru giving a teaching on how one can spend their whole lives trying to achieve the purest form of energy (transforming the 'gunas' all into the 'sattvic' which is the pure, holy one). But the point is that even the most holy person is still stuck in the forest, the drama of the 'world' and only the guy who completely lives outside the forest, the enlightened one, is free. But if we've got people like Swami M., who is completely enlightened, needing to sleep with 15 year old girls, believing an ashram of 400 people will not soon find out, and have people beaten up who tell his secret, I gotta wonder: What good does it do you to be enligthened if you've got a demon living inside of you?  | ||||
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| <HeartPrayer> |
Please do! I look forward to reading more. | ||
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Shasha, I'm interested to know how you think Kundalini awakening fits into a Christian path when it's more often seen in the context of Enlightenment and other Eastern forms of God realisation. At the moment I'm kind of struggling to understand how my own K and subsequent struggles relate to my Christian walk. Any thoughts you have would be welcome. Thanks, Stephen. | ||||
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Stephen, What k. struggles are you having, if you don't mind my asking? some rambling thoughts... In some ways, this topic is still disturbing to me...and a mystery. I can look at my experiences, look at Phil's and yours and others, but some things are still confusing. One thing seems certain: kundalini doesn't care about me or anybody. It feels like an impersonal energy that leads to an expanded consciousness and a sense of living on the 'spiritual plane' of reality as opposed to merely the mundane, physical plane where everybody looks like they are distinct. But living on the spiritual plane is not, by itself, Holy. It is not God's will and purpose, I gather. What good is experiencing oneself as One with creation when that creation is BROKEN? To me, enlightenment as brought about by k. *feels* like God-realization, but it is just one facet of God. His character, His heart, His mission is solely through the work of Christ as the Holy Spirit transforms us all into new creatures. There seem to be people who have k. awakenings or at least symptoms in places where the Holy Spirit and Christ are worshipped, but I don't know what to make of this. Katy reports this on another thread. There was a huge Holy Spirit outpouring and revival in Toronto (Toronto Airport) several years ago that literally touched the nations. However, Vineyard church disowned them after reports of weird stuff and allegations of demonic-like activity. I was very curious to see a website that equated the "Toronto blessing" with kundalini awakenings. There were apparently reports of people roaring like lions, having spontaneous orgasms and other things that the author noted happened around Swami M's ashram as well. Stephen, I know how sensitive you are to other's energy. I, too, just seem to literally absorb the consciousness of those around me, what I read, what I watch. So I'm very careful to be around those who are passionately committed to hosting the very Presence of Christ in their bodies. I need the Body of Christ like a fish needs water, literally... Although I feel finished with kundalini, or it is finished with me, I suspect that if I were to pick up any book on this subject or hang out with anybody who was attending to it, it would just fire up in me, at least for a short while. But it would be a bother. I just simply cannot afford to allow anything but the Holy Spirit around me. It is a learning process, what the Lord wants to teach and impart is so beautiful and deep... it takes a long time...but there are many wonderful servants of God who want to impart His blessings. I've been seeking them out like a hungry, wild woman. (I will share about my last retreat/conference with Bill Johnson soon.) peace and blessings to you! Shasha | ||||
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There seem to be people who have k. awakenings or at least symptoms in places where the Holy Spirit and Christ are worshipped, but I don't know what to make of this. Shasha, if you think of the K as a natural process in the service of facilitating psycho-physiological integration of higher consciousness, then we shouldn't be to surprised to find it showing up wherever intensive spiritual practice is emphasized. Charismatic/pentecostal communities with their emphasis on glossalalia are one such context, as are various contemplative movements like centering prayer. We've had a lot of discussion of this in the kundalini forum here, especially the featured thread on "Kundalini and the Holy Spirit." I don't know if you've checked out some of those exchanges, but they address some of the points you're raising. One thing seems certain: kundalini doesn't care about me or anybody. Yes, it does have that kind of "impersonal" feel to it, but so do our hormones and unconscious drives. If any of these are out of balance, we can get dragged along for a pretty rough ride. That's especially true when the K is awakened outside of a context of holistic spiritual growth. Even for practicing Christians, it's not piece of cake. | ||||
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Shasha, I can't help agreeing with you for the most part. But still my feelings towards the K are quite ambivalent. It can be quite seductive at times, despite the horrendous places it can lead. Occasionally it gives that sense of mental and physical liberation which seems to promise so much. Occasionally it leads to a sense of peace and bliss and allows the mind to surf great waves of Divine Presence. On the whole however it just gets in the way! When I sit down to pray, to really seek God's face and be still in His presence, and then I feel that burning in the perineum. It's like - huh! Quite a distraction. And then it kind of takes over, and where before my mind has been resting in God, I find it resting in itself, in SELF itself. Maybe, as you say Phil, this is K "facilitating psycho-physiological integration of higher consciousness". But to what end? Enlightenment? Non-dual states of consciousness? Or does it also facilitate union with God in Christ? Is that not the Holy Spirit's job? Or does the Spirit work within the K? I don't know. Who needs it? This really doesn't do justice to the whole experience. There are so many different scenarios. It just seems that K responds whenever there is a deep sense of God. Maybe this is working things out - healing, integrating, balancing. But so often it opens me up to malevolent presences. That could just be a consequence of an awakening outwith the context of healthy spiritual seeking. But still the broader pattern established at the outset continues. For example, my experience of the Jesus Prayer activated the heart but this in turn connected me psychically to a malevolent person. Same old story: over active K = connection to psychics, mediums, occultists etc = psychic attack. Wearisome! Anyway, I'd rather look at the question objectively, instead of repeating all the same old gripes. And so the question remains - what's the point of K in a Christian context? Does it clean out the system, so to speak, allowing the Holy Spirit to access areas that were otherwise clogged up with broken bottles and fallen leaves? Isn't that the work of Christ's blood? His sacrifice? Can the soul not receive this grace without activated kundalini? Then again I find my outlook broadening and deepening the more I get into all of this, my sense of the workings of God in the universe so huge and mysterious and so much greater than all the preconceived narrow minded notions I once held. The K has definitely had a role in this, in that awareness itself opens up a great expanse of inner and outer workings. That must be a good thing, no? You'd think! But then the awareness opens up to experiences that don't fall within orthodox Christian teaching about the soul's passage to God. You begin to wonder who's playing who? On the other hand, the knowledge of Christ's Presence, His centrality in all of this, is accentuated by the intention and will working within the vessel, so while the will can't control the movement of the K, it can ask Christ into the bigger picture the K is drawing. Anyway, some ramblings and some questions and still a lot of confusion. | ||||
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Stephen, I think you're answering some of your own questions. We've gone over these issues on the K forum, but I think it bears repeating that: a. People can know Christ and grow in grace without K awakening; b. People can have K awakening outside a Christian context. c. People can know Christ and have K awakening in the context of Christian growth. The latter option seems to happen most frequently with people involved in intense spiritual practice, as I noted above. As the "goal" of kundalini seems to be more oriented toward enlightenment and purifying the psyche and physiology to live in a state of enlightenment, the challenge for a Christian is to understand how this relates to Christian growth. Personally, I see no problem, as I view enlightenment to be a very wonderful blessing. Although it's not the goal of the Christian life, it's not opposed. Here's a quote from an article by Arraj that I've shared it before, but I think it fits in well, here: - http://www.innerexplorations.com/ewtext/some.htm | ||||
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Yes, thanks, Phil. I'm probably not quite as confused as I make out. Perception of the great Life behind all life, and the Love behind all life understood in the heart, and the interconnectivity of all Being. Nothing wrong with that and very much in keeping with Christian notions of love and harmony. And if K facilitates that perception then all the better. | ||||
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| <HeartPrayer> |
Phil, do you see a relationship between Gnosis and Kundalini Awakening? | ||
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Could well be, HP, along with a lot of other deep experiences. The "soul-ignition" that kundalini signifies can happen in many different contexts, and might even be a factor in some mental illnesses (e.g., several people at some of the K conferences I've attended thought K-awakening contributed to their bipolar disorder). Some teachers on the K even say that certain mad geniuses could have had an active K process -- e.g., Hitler. I guess it depends, in part, on what people mean by K awakening, but the telling factor, to me, is how the process is integrated. Higher consciousness per se doesn't necessarily predict moral integrity nor even happiness. | ||||
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| <HeartPrayer> |
Very well said! That�s my observation too. I have had a couple of extremely uncomfortable confrontations with so-called Gurus, stemming perhaps in part to their sense of "being seen". The "seeing" was innocent on my part, and happened spontaneously... The combination of Eastern Gurus (or Western ones, for that matter) of high consciousness, and Western "students" looking for Father or Mother surrogates, can be a very poisonous. The lack of exercising one�s critical faculty can be very harmful not only to oneself, but to the would-be Gurus as well. A key trait of any "real" spiritual food is that it has to be chewed, through inner effort or grace. Otherwise, if "swallowed whole", it merely passes through us, without any true, transforming sustenance being drawn from it. | ||
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Stephen, Hang in there! I've had a lot of troubling questions too about this very matter. And I am reminded of Bill Johnson's teaching that Christians are always walking between *mystery* and *revelation* and we need not get too tripped up by what is not fully known to us. Also, how can we call for and enjoy the "peace that surpasses understanding" if we have all understanding? Occasionally, I repeat something I picked up at the Catholic Church called the Litany of the Holy Spirit. One of the prayers is: "Holy Spirit grant us the only necessary knowledge, have mercy on us." Focussing on what has been revealed to me keeps me grounded when I'm am sometimes confused about what is true. During the worst of times, there are three things I can always do: 1- offer myself/ my body as a living sacrifice for the sake of God's Kingdom, 2- give thanks for all His blessings in my life, and 3- pray that I be open to receive all His gifts. I also pretty regularly and seriously pray for people who are within my sphere of influence. wishing you all God's gifts! Shasha | ||||
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Phil-- you write: Personally, I see no problem, as I view enlightenment to be a very wonderful blessing. Although it's not the goal of the Christian life, it's not opposed. -------------------------------------------- Elsewhere on this board, I've mentioned that I thought there were different kinds of enlightenment. I believe that you agreed with me on this. Do you think it's possible that some kinds of enlightenment actually do oppose the goal of Christianity? If you recall from my paper, I state that I think there is a distinction between a natural state of enlightenment and what I called the "guru-induced" form of enlightenment which opposes Christ. It may not be the actually state of consciousness that is inherantly evil, but the energies and dieties which support those states, which leaves free will as the culprit. In my experience of guru-induced enlightenment, I am so deeply intoxicated with freedom and bliss, there is no 'me' left and cetainly no need to bow to God or Christ. And the theology of these gurus is that we are God--which is opposed to Christianity. For example, I attended a seven-day program with a famous guru a few years ago. He made it perfectly clear that the kind of enlightenment he was directing in his students would completely take one out of the world, that one would become so loosely connected to one's body that it was highly dangerous. He warned us that only non-householders were eligible for this path. I believe I experienced this state; I was so ecstatic and free that I thought 'who needs Christ!!?' after which I felt a terrible shame and came crashing back to 'reality.' I also had a vision/ encounter in which I saw/felt this ecstatic power encased in a huge lingum. The lingum is at the center of this guru's temple in South India which he built to represent the source of the power of creation. In this vision, I saw that all those folks who were under this guru's power were all like little sparks or seeds within this lingum. I could see/feel the ecstasy but could also see that they were trapped inside, not free at all. In my view, --this thing is evil, --it is intimately bound up with enlightenment (somehow) and --referred to in Ephesian 6 as one of the "powers and principalities" which oppose Christ. | ||||
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| <HeartPrayer> |
Sasha, I do not believe that any guru can induce enlightenment. Impressive states of being, yes. Mood-making, yes. Enlightenment, no. The same holds true of many preachers and teachers who profess the epithet "Christian", whether on television or in front of live audiences. It is the difference between religion and religiosity. Enlightenment (as in Awakening) occurs solely through the grace of God. HeartPrayer | ||
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