Phil,

Many thanks for your link "On Christian Enlightenment" which I have just read. I found a lot I could relate to.

Funny thing, ever since I was a young child I have been able to, as it were, "open out" my awareness. I never thought about it as enlightenment. That was always some distant Eastern term that ran contrary to my Christian faith. But I remember looking out over the valley where I was brought up and really feeling a unity of consciousness; at other times regarding a tree or a river and feeling this same thing - a kind of fusion of awareness. Even today I seem to be able to open my awareness to, for instance, the sky, or an interior space, with a resulting shift in focus. It had always just kind of happened. There was never any "big moment". When I was young I could never really explain it. It just was.

My trouble is that I find all the terminology really confusing (perhaps I am too lazy to be bothered with it, too lazy to describe the experience properly) and have never tended to analyse any of what was going on; it all just seemed to be part of who I was. I understood it as some kind of spiritual perception but never really related it to finding or experiencing God. That was always achieved through faith.

Now by shifting my awareness to this opened-out consciousness, I get a real sense of Christ - Christ in the sky, Christ in interior space, Christ in nature, and my heart is filled with a deep joy and rapture.

I am still loath to call it enlightenment and regard faith and love of Christ as the supreme goals of my life. My passion for Christ over rides any desire I have for different states and perhaps that has resulted in a misunderstanding on my part and perhaps also I have been too quick to denounce these same states throughout this thread. Ironic really!!

Having said that, I still don't feel as if it all had much to do with God until I brought Christ into the equation. There seems to be a lot more pressing things that a Christian should be involved with - sanctification, righteousness etc.

Anyway, I feel that life throws up so many obstacles to the appreciation of the world from, if you like, the cosmic angle. Maybe this thread will help me fuse an awareness that has always seemed to be part of me with an understanding and love of God that I am so desirous to increase.

(The terminology still knocks me out!! )

Peace!

Stephen.

Asher, your take?"


There was a self in the experiences I had, but it was not the subject of awareness. There was no act of dissolution, but there was joy arising from a centre of being that was simultaeously the centre of everything that was looked upon. "Where does joy arise from?" I found myself asking. It arose from everywhere and nowhere. If there was a movement to find a self, that self was discovered to be joy, and yet if I focused outside myself, that joy arose out of everything I looked at, as though the centre of awareness was not simply inside, but everywhere.

"How does anything move" I found myself asking. It simply moves because that is the nature of things: to move and change, and yet there was a transparancy about everything, utterly unmistakable, a tapestry of being that wove itself through this movement and change, whose essence was joy. I couldn't say that it arose from a person. I didn't find myself denying the person, either, but certainly the person was put into question in retrospect. I did examine my hand and it seemed to no belong to me.
All I could come to later, after the experience faded was there is a person and that person is moving towards that awareness without question. This does not deny the uniqueness of the individual, but something is percieved at the core of people that is utterly joyful in the face of apparant pain, that shines through them and through all creation. It is simple, so utterly pristine that it becomes easy to dimiss the individual completely as an illusion. What I saw later was that this force of movement itself is That joy moving towards unity. That the individual was still individual although they moved in this matrix of unity. Yet I had other experiences where the individual was denied as an illusion. Such were the nature of those experiences. I cannot say that one is right and the other wrong. All I can say is that a new perspective was given. It was not a greater "I" looking at a smaller "I," it was simply "I." Not that "I am God" sort of thing, but that greater "I" contains the smaller "I" and if smaller I is focused on, it is seen to be joy-filled and, at times, empty.

But, to answer your question, it was certainly not a sort of samadhi of dissolution, nor was it a radical denial of the self. The self was certainly put into question. This point of awareness seems to be located in the back of the head, but it is not physical, although it is felt there. All I can say, is that meditation awakens that point with a fragrance of the above experience. OK I go now.

I've suddenly come to a great understanding of where I am and what I've been through. I won't bore you with the details, it's late on this side of the pond and I've taken up too much of your time already. But thanks!!

On thinking it through, I evidently have more experience of these states than I at first thought. Then again, nothing wrong with a little Socratic irony

Stephen.

Please allow me to share a little more.

I'm not sure the experiences I describe are anything to do with enlightenment or not. I placed no particular value on them as a youth but they were imbued with a certain sense of wonder. And perhaps as I got older I tended to place some special significance on them.

Here's the thing. My awareness can reach out, fuse, fill me with joy at times, but there is flipside. I know I've mentioned this stuff before elsewhere on this board, but would like to mention it in the context of enlightenment. Sometimes, and only sometimes, when awareness opens out thus, a connection is made to occult entities, earth bound or otherwise. The dark side to cosmic consciousness!

I feel now that God has placed these particular obstacles there to rein in my wandering attention, lessen the value I place on "enlightenment" or whatever it is, with the result that Christ is magnified alone through faith. At a time when reaching these states could have been more important to me than anything else, God put up a barrier. Consequently, no "state" or experience has any significance other than my link to Him. My awareness is nothing if it doesn't value Christ above all experience. Why then does Christ become part of the experience at times?

I realise this may have nothing to do with the conversation that has gone on before, so forgive me for diverting so, and in such self focused manner. I just really want to know if my conclusions make any sense to anyone else. And if paths to enlightenment, and realisation of such, are not, in Eastern religion, also blighted by occult energy and attachment. Can one be enlightened and, at the same time, harassed by demonic foes? Is there a mental space that connects unified consciousness with astral realms?

Once again, forgive such public gushing. I know I have to deal with these things myself and don't expect any miracle answers. But I am interested in the bigger picture if anyone has anything to say on that, if indeed it is at all significant to the discussion.

(I might also add that I don't have any particular need to understand all this. I'm content to accept it. Just that every so often I get curious.)

Stephen, I think your comments are very much in the spirit of this thread. And I think you bring up a good point, namely that opening one's consciousness into a more spiritual space doesn't necessarily guarantee that only light, beauty and goodness will be found. You've indicated on other threads that you consider the entities you encounter as more than just your own unconscious content, and I believe you. Christian, Buddhist and Hindu teachings acknowledge the existence of malevolent entities in the spiritual realm; providing protection from these dark forces is but one of many advantages Christ has gained for us.

It sounds like from a very early age you were able to "tune in," as it were, to the higher aspects of the soul and its spiritual consciousness. I'm also hearing that faith in Christ has "colored" this awareness with a sense of His presence. That's my experience as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] Asher, in your posts it's not clear what part is yours and what is from others. Use the Reply button at the top of the page or click the quotations icon above a post to have access to the formatting features. See, for example, how Grace has set your quotes off in italics above; that helps. Just a suggestion, since you've shared that you're a newbie to these kinds of Internet discussions.

-----


This will be my last long post on this thread, as I'm aware of the demands on time and attention made by long reflections. But I'm stating what I consider to be fundamental distinctions in this post and the opening one, and will refer to them as we continue the discussion. [/qb]

Thank you for your consideration of our time. Thank you even more for your sharing of your wisdom. I do not understand where I am and you all help me to understand and to not feel alone.

And this is the first time I have used the quotes. Thank you for the explanation. I had not just played (clicked) on existing things on the page. I am going to do that now.

So now "what is real" now that quantum theory says that a tree is not solid?? That we are a thought of God's? I touch and I believe that it is real. Now I touch and it may not be as I "feel" it to be. I intuit that there is more than my "5" senses tell me. I already experience what is not "real". Or is it more real than what is seen. I already am aware that I am living in more than one "world" at a time. The Kingdom of God is here, is now, is real, sometimes more real. Life is not what I expected. Time to let go of expectations and assumptions and to be open to what comes. I have lived by rules that others put on me and now I am realizing I can, I have the choice to follow those rules or to choose not to. To question. I havae found others who are open to the process and do not live in a box of fear. Interesting journey.

There are all kinds of experiences of "more," Diane, and I guess that's one of the key issues to discern, here. E.g., are all experiences of thought-transcendence (even during meditation) experiences of God? I don't think so. So there is the "more" of the larger field of consciousness proper to the soul itself, which we barely tap into.

I like the kind of open-mindedness that you're expressing here, and the importance of making one's choices as well. Thanks for sharing.

Since the topic is enlightenment, I want to share the "purpose of enlightenment".

The aim and purpose of man is to co-operate with The Divine and to be it's instrument in matter. To enlighten....means Light (knowledge} doing God's Will. When all of humanity realizes that The Divine God is within us, and that our purpose in life is to serve Him, we can then truly love our neighbors as ourselves. To do so, we must not surrender our minds to another human being and become enslaved to their mind-set, but for us to truly be centered in God within ourselves. The realization of the Supreme Identity is the goal. It is through man that the great plan of God can be realized and His love be finished.

We as co-workers of God can by our acts of love and service help lift humanity a little higher, or by selfish self-centered acts bring humanity toward a lower level. This path has been made easier for us by all the Holy men and women that have walked before us in service to God.

We are all connected in this fabric of life within the tapestry of God's plan. In awe and wonder we shall gaze upon the completed work and see how each and everyone of us mattered, like threads of gold, silver, red, green, yellow, blue, etc., all connected and interwoven. God's Will be done.
Freebird

I like what you're saying, Freebird, only I don't think that's the understanding of enlightenment in the Zen / Buddhist tradition. They wouldn't speak of "co-operating with the Divine," for example, nor any of the other references to God you've made. And when you move beyond the semantical issues to the kind of experience being described, it doesn't seem to have any of the relational dynamics you describe.

I realize that one is free to use the term "enlightenment" in various ways, of course. . . just noting how it was developed in earlier parts of the discussion. What you're describing is much closer to a Christian understanding of mysticism or contemplation than Zen enlightenment.

Freebird, you have beautifully decribed the state of enlightenment and beyond. As Phil put it correctly "What you're describing is much closer to a Christian understanding of mysticism or contemplation than Zen enlightenment." I would say mysticism in the tradition of Christianity is a state beyond enlightenment. A state where one is fully integrated with the resurrected body of Christ. In many aspect this state supercede enlightenment.

Finding this discussion and immediately hearing from numerous people that they all experience what I go through just blew my mind.

Originally I believe this discussion was being held in a different topic, which was the one I read. I have to say.. It was so nice to finally hear all of that. I've forever been able to feel there were more of whatever I felt.

I'm a very observant person, always with a good perspective on my environment. Never do I stop trying to "get a feel" for people, per se. I've always been good with the pyschology of the people around me.

I've read and understand to an extent what's going on with my duel-thought process. I'll have a thought cross my mind, and instantly the exact opposite thought will shoot by, both seemingly equally the right thing to do. This causes paranoia as to making a salubrious choice.

I've had panic attacks before as well, with insane thoughts running around such as, "You could own the whole world.. just accept it. This entire thing, etc." It's horrible. Surviving in a constant state of resistance. Another time I had a panic attack over loss of my salvation, and it's really unexplainable, but everything people around were saying was as if they were talking to me indirectly, and everything they said applied to my life and scenario's. I experienced a sensation of fear beyond anything humanly possible and that's a promise... and let me tell you something, that was the worst thing I've ever felt in my life. It was the absolute epitimy of being miserable.. It lasted about 15 seconds until I got up, said loudly I was going to church and it all ended. It's insane, and I feel as though God used that to talk to me.

Now understand I used to be in church everytime the doors were open, and am no doubt still huge in faith. However I've slipped off a lot in the last few years. It's amazing how much I can relate to all of you, it's crazy. Of course as much as this sounds all worked out and legitimate, I'm more along the lines of Stephan's last posts. Sorta how I feel.

But what I want to know is, why this started happening. What caused it, the purpose. I'd appreciate it if you could make it around to another post.

Greatly.

Welcome, Xatos! Grace will no doubt manifest soon... Caritas, mm <*))))><

Welcome Xatos. It's hard to know how to answer your questions for sure. Disjointed thoughts that seem to come from "nowhere" can be explained in a variety of ways; we all have this, to some extent, and then there's the schizophrenic range, where the thoughts are like "voices" that can even exercise a certain amount of control over one's life.

How disruptive is this for you at this time? Maybe you could start a new discussion in the "Kundalini and Spiritual Emergencies" forum as it would better fit there.

Hi Xatos!

You said: "everything people around were saying was as if they were talking to me indirectly, and everything they said applied to my life and scenario's."

That's happened to me. I kept seeing all these signs. On one hand it can be a manifestation of sychronicity; on the other it can reflect an instability in the mind, where the ego is unbalanced and interprets things according to one's circumstances, a loss of objectivity. In extreme cases it can lead to delusional thinking, so you're right to get up, get on with it and get to church. However . . .

I wonder if you're aware of mental synchronicity. This happens to me a lot even today, where a word or phrase occurs in my mind at the same time as is spoken by an outside source - TV, radio, someone in the passing. Or something is said by an outside source which has a direct bearing on the events I'm engaged in. It can be pretty mad and again, if the ego is disturbed, it can lead to some really strange, irrational thinking. But then some folk see it as a sign from the universe. It's best not to take it too seriously but be aware something strange is going on - a wake up call. It all reflects the nature of mind at its
extremities. Beautiful but scary too. The best thing to do is get grounded and get involved in something practical.

I should probably mention that these panic attacks occurred after smoking marijuana. I'm not going to come here and lie. It's been well over a year since this happened. I believe that it was a personal revelation of Satan's augmentation into my life, (slap on the face, wake up call) and basically letting me know what's going on. I experienced a decrease of God in my life, and even today when I'm attempting to restore that and go beyond, I lack motivation and am often forgetful to act. I'm pulled between two opposing tracks of thought. It's hard to explain.
Everything pretty much manifested in a short period of time.

It's something I wouldn't call depression.. At least not anymore, more of I guess a contentment with what's around. I tend to be pretty easy going and cling on to my environment, more than capable to laugh and have jokes, but it's like I need a pull-start to for example be as "funny" as I used to be so easily. It's like I need someone else around me doing that to able to do it well. Kind of like a mimic.

http://www.innerexplorations.com/chmystext/isit.htm

I came across this page and it was such a great expression of my own arcane inners. I was awake last night till around 5AM reading from link to link until I had to retire. Something esoteric that can now be talked about some. I've been my own counsel for so long, and I enjoy being my own counsel, but I've been looking for someone else for a long time. I've believed though I'd more or less or at least have hint beforehand without a word being spoken to each other.

And Stephen, it's far from a severity causing irrational action. It's difficult to explain. It's as if I'm meant at times to interpret these specific though random sources as if their words are indirectly directed towards me. It doesn't happen regularly, but time to time. It really can't be explained that's why it's so awesome that you've experienced it.

I checked multiple resources for safesake, and it seems as though I'm a pupil of synchronicity. I'm still being pulled on the direction I should take though. I'm having trouble discerning whether or not this would be against Biblical teachings. Spiritual decisions are very difficult for me due to a second opinion, which makes equal sense. I become paranoid in my decision because I want to please the Lord yet am not always quite sure which road to take.

Could we be gifted with a fecund-type new awareness towards a superlative? A closeness? Or victims of a misleading not of the Bible?

What scripture buttress could relate to this?


Oh and Phil, it's disruptiveness based on personal life? Spiritual? Sanity? I'm not sure in what way to direct an answer.

Thanks for the welcome's, by the way.

Also, could someone show me to a preferred link or guide on meditation and K? I'm sure a few of you have typed it out a few times and it may be easier to point

Xatos--

Like Stephen, I have felt a few of the things you have, although I've never experienced a full out panic attack. I suggest that you stop smoking up (ie. smoking up will make your already fragile sense of self, even more fragile and will conceal the hurt that you are not facing.) Often, smoking up will open you the subtle physical to malign forces and actually create the experinces that you are having.) I would highly recommend not dwelling too much on meditation and K until you have gotten off smoking up; began to directly confront your hurts. Go to Mass; strengthen your body-mind; eat healthy food: the basics. In my experience, meditation does not help the state you describe: grace does, and discipline.

No no, you've got this all wrong. I don't, "smoke up". Haven't since the attacks, as it was more or less an experimental phase of which ended quickly enough. I've no addictions or drug related vice's of any kind. I'm afraid this may have made other potential misunderstandings, and I certainly hope not. Also as far as K, I was doing research and it seems though it's metaphored by a coiled snake? Perhaps this is simply as it is, but it reminds me of evil, and Satan. Keep in mind I'm only making observations, and speaking my mind. I aim in no way to denounce any of this. I'm very anxious, actually. A few more posts would be greatly beneficial to me.

The posts on this board are very soothing and compelling, however I can't help but consider certain practices as being potential evil or evil-capable just as they are good. Perhaps this could be simply by using them for premeditated intentions I suppose?

More study of K has led me to believe it's not something the Lord has intended for us. Unless you can provide something Biblical, then I would have to assert that "K", which derives from the flesh and of the flesh, would be of great regret in the end. I feel the Lord would be upset to in a sense, have "another" besides Him. He makes His wrath very clear in the Bible about any other before or along Him.

Don't misunderstand, I'm only saying what I think, and what I would have to accept without scripture reference or related. The Bible already speaks of most pyschic acts as being from evil sources.

To find the group of you and having people already explaining the same things I go through (whether I explain them as well or not) is beyond salubrious alone. K or not, reading these posts and the pyschology behind it helps me mold a path in of itself.

Please excuse my repeated posting, but I come as things come

These experiences have occured at all times and in all cultures. Read Phil's book "Christian Kundalini"
or "Kundulini" by Gopi Krishna. If you don't have "k," don't seek it. It tends to occur when the organism is ready.

Peace in the Name of the Lord, brother(assuming you are male) Xatos, mm <*)))))><

I've been online a good 2 hours searching and studying. I've read so much from both sides, 80% being for K. To mention some of my findings, many places/people say, "K sometimes comes to after experiencing near-death or trauma" or along the longs if it coming all of a sudden and not knowing what's going on. Or, it hits you randomly.

That's me. As much as I can see and understand from the positive perspective I'm confused (that's all, I'm only seeking confidence) still on it's holiness to God. I mean.. why wouldn't God tell us in His Book?

Now that I've stumbled on previously unheard-of information I must understand it completely. I have been waiting for this.

Click here.

-- "It's like a machine : the "Vampirism Creator". Or, if you prefer, the vampirizer machine. Its moles and gears are moved by their doubletalk, their thought reading scheme, their mathematical similarities, their nightly dreams manipulation, and their artificial synchronicity of events around you." --

All apologies to excessive posts. Something's happening to me in my life that fits a few of you. It fits the above quote. I believe I have some level of this, not excessive but above low. In fact I'm quite sure of it. I'm very confused and unsure right now.

I'll restrain.

To be honest, Xatos, I don't really feel qualified to guide you.

When we go through times of crises the best place to go for help is to those "in the know" , those with a bit of authority - doctors, pastors, priests. No shame in discussing all this with a doctor or a priest, and even if they don't know too much about the K etc, there's a lot they can help us with. I don't think things like the above link are very helpful.

I can only say so much here. Trust in God and His Word. Don't do too much thinking or worrying at this point. Let God come in. Get some practical help. Don't listen to the voices pulling you in different directions until you decide which is your true voice. Asher is right too. Breathe and eat some healthy food. Get up in the morning and enjoy the sunshine.

Much grace and blessing, Xatos.

Xatos,

As I recall, I searched Kundalini on the web and read about others' experience with Kundalini, and as I recall I was having a difficult time relating to their experience from a Christian frame of reference. I did find some Christian experiences of this and then I wound up here.

As far as relating from a conservative Evangelical backround, Phil wrote a book called Catholic Answers to Fundamentalist Questions, which I have not read, but based on my experience with Phil, might be a good place to begin.

There is a great deal of love and patient concern in here, but you may experience alot of new ideas
which can take some time to digest in the light of one's own experience. This can be challenging and rewarding, and in my case, I didn't really have a choice. An experience was triggered by meditation
and I had to find a new frame of reference to deal with it.

No one is "enlightened," and we are all pretty much struggling with the "human condition," and there are helps from many sources.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><