Xatos, please see this forum for more info about kundalini and spiritual emergencies.

I've not read anything from your posts that suggests you're having a kundalini rising, so I don't think you need to be concerned about that. I might be mistaken, however . . . just going on what you've shared.


Re. the imagery used -- the serpent isn't always diabological in the world's mythological literature -- not even in the Jewish scriptures. God had Moses use an image of a bronze serpent to ward of the "saraph serpents" that were tormenting the Israelites in the desert. And, amazingly, Jesus refers to this serpent when he speaks of himself being "lifted up" for all people.

Take your time and study, read, and reflect a bit more on this topic. And please use the spiritual emergency forum to process your struggle, as this one was for another topic.

Hi Phil And also to mlk212 and all the people who have already shared here

I realize this is a reply to posts from a couple of years ago. Firstly I have read your accounts of zen like awareness and also read some Thomas Merton and the suggested links from this thread.

I have been attending a hitsuzendo calligraphy class for about 6 months. It involves some zazen and gentle ki exercizeses (such as breathing and massaging points on the hand and head)before doing the calligraphy itself.. I have been attending with an interest in calligraphy and japanese culture rather than wanting to integrate into a zen system - I looked into Buddhism 10 years ago but decided for me it lacked the personal relationship that christianity provides.
Last year I also experienced a profound sense of Jesus a kind of breakthrough in an awareness of what christianity truly is and it is very much more beautiful and true than I ever realized (despite being brought up a christian). As a result I have been wanting to find a christian community, read the bible more and pray all the time.
In the past I have experienced a certian sense of blackness around some people and in some buddhist temples, I am not claiming to understand this or say that it is more than my own personal experience. After talking to a friend who is wary of accupuncture and anything that is not of God she has advised me to be careful. I have to say that as my own heart knowledge of Christ (I would say before i knew the scripture but it was so dead to me because i didnt understand it with my heart and mind together)I have become confused about whether by attending meditation I am potentially opening myself up to any demonic realms ,(I never thought I`d say that). While in a zen garden I experienced something similar to what you described where everything felt clearly defined and wholly individual (whether a rock or tree) but conected to each other and to me. I have also experienced a sense of nothingness which was very different from reading scripture and very much feeling a calm and holy presence. I have always been a bit stubborn and am realizing the importance of discernment and good grounded biblical teaching but I really enjoy the calligraphy and the people who go are all lovely and there is a pervasive atmosphere of respect and peace. I would really value your perspective as though I love many of my christian friends dearly they have no reference points with any of this...


Mark 4. 11-14
ps do you follow youtube? I thoroughly recommend mamamialove
youtube - Mamialove http://www.youtube.com

Hi Rachel �

Thought I might add a view from a slightly different perspective.

I tried various Japanese martials arts through my life, and in so doing grew interested in the history and culture.

Finally I trained for a few years in classical Japanese swordsmanship (Shindo Muso Ryu). So we too practiced zazen, ki exercises, and other psychodynamic techniques.

quote:

I have been attending with an interest in calligraphy and japanese culture rather than wanting to integrate into a zen system

Same here, although I did consider Zen when going through a faith-crisis of my own. The 'trouble' is I cannot envisage any kind of transcendant system without the active Presence of Christ.

As an aside, the nature of my own 'enlightenment' and resolution of the crisis was to do with belonging to the Church, rather than any profound sense of Christ's presence as a person. In fact I experienced the Church as a 'presence', but then being me, the Church is the Mystical Body � the Corpus Mysticum.

quote:

After talking to a friend who is wary of accupuncture and anything that is not of God she has advised me to be careful.

A note here: therapeutic methods from the east might well be alien, but that does not make them evil, and the view that acupuncture is not of God is something of a leap, in my book.

I do accept, and often get intemperate, about the amount of pseudo spiritual mumbo-jumbo that surrounds what are often utterly mundane practices. For example, one of our fencing instructors used Reiki techniques to treat training injuries, with remarkable success, but the amount of fantasy and nonsense that has accrued to that subject in the West is staggering!

quote:

I have become confused about whether by attending meditation I am potentially opening myself up to any demonic realms, (I never thought I'd say that).

Well that's a big topic, and I'm sure others will have something to say. I can offer just a couple of points.

There is nothing wrong in meditation � it is, after all, the art of concentration, and nothing more.

One should be conscious, however, of the context in which one meditates. Zen meditation, for example, is almost diametrically opposed to Christian contemplation in its object � although not in its technique ... this does not make Zen evil, but different. In the Catholic Tradition, contemplation comes 'after' one has mastered meditation (whilst in fact one is improving all things all the time).

A certain risk involves the unlocking of the subconscious, and the opening of 'Pandora's Box' and this is one of the reasons why any 'serious' work should only be done under the supervision of a qualified spiritual director. But then that's deep work, a long haul. Most people don't bother to go so deep.

I do recall when Buddhist chanting was the 'in thing' � a minor celebrity appeared on a TV chat show to endorse the practice with "I chanted for a new Porsche, and I got one!" I dread to think what the Buddha made of that, but the point is one can bring about change in onself and apparently in one's life, but ...

quote:

I have also experienced a sense of nothingness...

What kind of nothingness, I wonder?

The Void of Buddhism is not, in their context, 'negative', or 'empty' � rather it is a supra-abundance, it is akin 'superessential light' of which Dionysius the Areopagite speaks, so light it is dark ...

The Void of our own being is very real, we are utterly subsistent beings, creatures and creations of God (so I'm definitely not Zen, then). People talk often of the 'Zen' of Meister Eckhart or Thomas Merton, I particularly like the 'Zen' of St Catherine of Siena, who was told in a vision of Christ "I am He Who Is; you are she who is not."

quote:

I have always been a bit stubborn and am realizing the importance of discernment and good grounded biblical teaching but I really enjoy the calligraphy

I studied meditation once, in a class led by a Buddhist. He said, "You don't get to be a Buddhist by meditating, and you don't have to be a Buddhist to meditate. This class is about meditation. If you want to know about Buddhism, come on a Tuesday."
That made sense to me.

Calligraphy, whether European, Japanese or even Arab, is not sacred, it is a skill one develops, and puts to the service of the sacred. So I see no problem in a good Christian doing Japanese calligraphy, or paper-folding, or parcel-wrapping (they're genius at that, too!) unless someone suggests there's something intrinsically religious in origami ... at which point I think someone is kidding themselves.

quote:

they have no reference points with any of this...

There was some hoo-ha in American Catholic circles a few years ago about martial arts, because we bow to the kami-za, the 'spirit corner' � so am I worshiping demons? I don't think so. I bowed out of respect, being in someone else's house, in the same way I would observe the right actions in a synagogue, mosque or temple. It was not a religious action, but just good manners.

In fact I heard a Benedictine monk point out that Moslems have their indoor shrines, Jews have a great tradition of family liturgical practice, Buddhists have their little alcoves, so do Shinto practitioners ... every Chinese or Indian takeaway inb London has its little altar ... but we European Catholics? A cross on the wall is about it. Non-catholic Christians?

If your friends are short a reference point, I would say making space and a special place in the home for the Divine, however 'It' is understood, is a good place to start ... but just because you go into someone's house does not mean you adopt their religion.

Calligraphy is calligraphy ... it's just writing (and that's saying something for me, as I am a typographer by trade) ... when you start penning excerpts from Scripture, as a work of devotion, then perhaps one can discuss the meaning of 'icon'.

Well, more than 2c, surely? There's got to be a couple of dollar's worth there?

Thomas

"In the past I have experienced a certian sense of blackness around some people and in some buddhist temples, I am not claiming to understand this or say that it is more than my own personal experience. After talking to a friend who is wary of accupuncture and anything that is not of God she has advised me to be careful"

Sometimes deep indigo is seen as black.

Ajoy

Thanks Thomas and Ajoy.
That was really useful and has confirmed a few of my own thoughts. I had been bowing too in the dojo and was wondering about that! but as you said in Japan and other Eastern places it is a sign of respect rather than devotion or worship.

Its strange before I became a christian I felt that I knew what I thought about a lot of New Age and Eastern religions but since having more contact with mainstream, possibly evangelical writings I have become confused. I used to attend Quaker worship in the uk and I my experience of Jesus was transformed through learning how to sit quietly in his presence. I find it hard as I have experienced and looked into eastern religions and decided that they are not for me but I maintain an interest and respect for them. I think the problem occurs when people try and synthesize them or think that all religions are the same thing when I have come to the understanding that they are in fact very different.

I guess all this is a bigger question about ecumenicalism. I have in the past, and stil unfortunatly do find it hard to dialogue with some christians without feeling that they have a very narrow viewpoin r.e this subject (I strongly believe we are all brothers and sisters in christ so this is sad for me). Also as a new christian in terms of realizing christ in my heart (even though I have a biblical background) I find some people I have talked to seem to think that my past ecperiences are somehow influencing my thoughts or are wrong. Ie when talking to a more mature christian about my experiences of meditation some have been sceptical or wary of it, when for me I now pray to Jesus constantly but also meditate but consider them very different acitivities. the fomer opens my heart and mind to the renewal of the holy spirit and helps me surrender to Gods will, the latter helps me quieten my mind and focus more effectively combating anxiety and stress.

I have been living in Japan for 2 1/2 years and have a great respect for many of their cultural traditions. The experience of blackness was only in one temple and re-reading my post i realize it sounds like I was associating the sense of nothingness negatively. I actually found it very profound and beyond words. For me I don`t believe I am the earth itself but I have experienced a deep connection with nature. Its as if I am me and that is there and we are symbiotic somehow.

anyway thanks again
I look forward to reading more on the subject and continuing my calligraphy pratice.

I've been occupied with other pursuits the past few days and so am only catching up on things. This is a very rich exchange, lately, especially since you all are speaking from experience and wanting to discern their meaning.

From where I sit, it seems you three (rachel, Thomas and ajoy) are making essential distinctions between the kind of interpersonal spirituality emphasized in Christianity, and the more impersonal, metaphysical approach of zen and other Eastern disciplines. I don't think the latter is diabolical either, but it is definitely in tension with Christian spiritual practice. Having tried zazen for a couple of years and even attended a week-long zen intensive retreat, I decided to drop it altogether. If my mind needs calming, I use some kind of Christian method (Jesus prayer, glossalalia, centering prayer) or just prayerfully follow my breathing. I find that all the metaphysical kinds of experiences available to the East can also be known in the context of deepening relationship with God, but if they don't happen, then that's OK. I'm speaking mostly about zazen, here, and recognize that martial arts, chigong, yoga, and other practices also help integrate body-mind in ways that zazen doesn't. One must keep an eye on one's intention, however, but that is also true when doing physical exercises, dieting, etc.

Phil
Would you please delete my previous post. The
time for me to do so has passed.
Thank you
Ajoy

OK, I've done so. I thought it was good sharing, however. Maybe you'd like to consider submitting it again, editing out whatever part bothered you.

Dear Ajoy,

I liked what you shared also and was going to respond. However, since it seemed like your post was primarily directed at Phil, I was waiting fom him to respond first.

Feel free to share again on this very important and interesting topic. It doesn't have to be perfect or even your final word on the subject...but I know that feeling of wanting to undo what one writes.

much peace to you,
Shasha

quote:

Originally posted by rachel:
[qb]I have in the past, and stil unfortunatly do find it hard to dialogue with some christians without feeling that they have a very narrow viewpoin r.e this subject (I strongly believe we are all brothers and sisters in christ so this is sad for me). Also as a new christian in terms of realizing christ in my heart (even though I have a biblical background) I find some people I have talked to seem to think that my past ecperiences are somehow influencing my thoughts or are wrong. Ie when talking to a more mature christian about my experiences of meditation some have been sceptical or wary of it, when for me I now pray to Jesus constantly but also meditate but consider them very different acitivities. the fomer opens my heart and mind to the renewal of the holy spirit and helps me surrender to Gods will, the latter helps me quieten my mind and focus more effectively combating anxiety and stress.
[/qb]

Unfortunately, you are going to encounter skepticism and probably derision if you try to convey knowing Jesus experientially with the heart instead of intellectually with the mind when discussing the issue with "mainstream" believers. The word "meditation" strikes fear in many of these people, and then don't even try to bring up quiet/listening prayer!

Caneman

Thank you Phil. I feel more at ease now to try and express what i have
recently experienced. Shasha you were one of the people i thought of in this topic.

There has been confusion for me with the meaning of terms like: non dual;'
Enlightened; Being G*d; Being one's own authority; and Creator of ones own life. I
recently ran into a couple folks that have been real big on these terms. I run into
them ever year or so. What i experienced from these folks, who claim all the
above, were words and energy full of anger. Words of intimidation and threats
are used, by one, towards anyone who questioned their self proclaimed attainments.
This individual has strong siddha powers that i feel they would use to try & force
their illusion onto others.

This is not at all what i have experienced by one whom i believe to be Enlightened
and has been the standard i have used when i speak of Enlightenment.

Always helps to have your own experiences to draw on. From my recent
experience i understand that an Enlightenment experience or non dual experiences does not necessarily mean one is living from the Fruits.

The first example make a real big deal about Christianity coming from a relation-
ship with a mythic G*d. Yet i would suggest the finger be pointed back to themselves. The mythic
god being their own egos.

If you do not agree with my understanding of this then please say so Phil.
In the moving past the Dark Night of the Soul i see this as being born
again - Being made anew. This being a higher functioning type of
ego. One that is increasingly living from the Fruits. And that this is the
ego that is having a personal relationship with YHWH. This is a much
deeper level of relationship. Not the same ego as they are referring to as a
relationship with a mythic G*d.

Also i have come to understand the incredible energetic powers some of
these folks have. I spoke with a friend of a friend about 1 1/2 yrs. ago. He
had recently come back from India where he studied with 2 Hindu teachers.
I did not physically feel well in the presence of this person. As we left i could
not wait to have space between my husband and myself. When home i could not be in the same room as my husband as I felt very nauseated to be in his presence.

Later i saw the faces of 2 Hindu men who were influencing this friend of a friend. Their
energy was so strong over him that it reached out to affect me for a couple hours. I can only imagine what it is like to move past a relationship with one of these Yogis

About 6 months later this person filed for divorce from a long term marriage.

Ajoy

Dear Ajoy,

Thank you for sharing your reflections. I went through a period of confusion and searching for answers about whether the Eastern path of enlightenment, non-dual consciousness, and siddhis were related to the Holy Spirit. At various times in my life, I was initiated by three very powerful yogi/gurus.

Unless one has a first-hand experience of the energy that yogis manipulate, it really is hard to understand, and statements about another's "energy" will sound like a metaphor or exaggeration. I recall one time when I was in a hottub at a fancy hotel some years ago. A man had been engaged in a discussion with a woman, and I couldn't help but overhear that he was talking about being able to alleviate her problems with some "energy" that he had apparently discovered somehow. As he spoke, I literally felt a presence moving across the water towards me. As it engulfed me, I went into the most ecstatic state in which I felt such stillness and bliss that nothing, absolutely nothing mattered. Later that night, I was still in this state and wanted only to lie down and enjoy this limitless sense of being. Well, this naturally annoyed my family as I completely ignored them, but the seduction was so thorough, I don't know if anything could have pulled me out. By the next day, it was gone. My point is that even without explicily calling on this energy, just the mere presence of one who calls on it can affect you.

No, non-dual consciousness doens't make us holy. At the same time, there are non-dual states that don't boast of being God. But enlightenment and siddhis have been around since before Christ came, and He came to make a new way. The old ways of striving for and achieving enlightenment were not cutting it for humanity. Yes, you can have the experience of being merged with the universe and call that the I AM. You can get this state of feeling as if you are one with God through the right street drugs, too. However, if the I AM was enough, if non-dual awareness was sufficient for spiritual fulfillment, why did God send Jesus? Why would we need Christ?

Ajoy, you make a good point about living from spiritual fruits. It is my opinion that even as there can be some spiritual fruits exhibited in various yogis (e.g., charitable services, appeals to unconditional love, tolerance/ patience in accepting all religious paths as equal, etc.), their consciousnesses have been so drastically altered that they are, in a sense, possessed by the energies/dieties they have summoned.

Evidence of pride and arrogance, as you point out, is in statements of self-sufficiency and self-authority of the people you mentioned. One yogi told a group of us that it was ridiculous to worship God since we are God...

Consider these signs thought to define Narcissistic Personality Disorder (a psychiatric diagnosis): a grandiose sense of self-importance, a preoccupation with fantasies of boundless success, power, brilliance, etc.; a display of arrogant behaviors; lack of empathy; a belief that they are unique; need for admiration. Perhaps like the person you are referring to in your post above, Ajoy, I think these kinds of people are drawn into the Eastern path of enlightenment and then the siddhis reinforce their narcissism...my personal opinion.

Yes, I agree that it seems like it would be difficult to move past a relationship with a yogi, but God pulled me out. It is tough because I believe that certain energies can actually obtain control of one's mind (the dark "powers and principalities" referred to in Ephesians 6), and if so, what are the limits of what you will believe? In the same way that the function of our ordinary consciousness is to differentiate our different states of being, (sleeping vs. waking vs. daydreaming, for instance), the function of our spiritual consciousness is to differentiate truth from illusions in terms of our right relationship with God. For those who boast being equal with God, this power has taken hold of their spiritual consciousness and sold them a lie.

And we can see this in our everyday lives, too, perhaps on a smaller scale. There is the process of going back and forth between the illusion of self-sufficiency / power in one moment or area of our life and then an utter dependence / poverty in the next.


Shasha

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:
[qb]Unless one has a first-hand experience of the energy that yogis manipulate, it really is hard to understand, and statements about another's "energy"...
... couldn't help but overhear that he was talking about being able to alleviate her problems with some "energy" that he had apparently discovered somehow. As he spoke, I literally felt a presence moving across the water towards me. As it engulfed me, I went into the most ecstatic state in which I felt such stillness and bliss that nothing, absolutely nothing mattered. [/qb]

Hi Sasha, I have a question for you about people who are following Hinduism in one form or another... when I am around many of them they seem to radiate exactly what you describe... when I look into their eyes they usually radiate a presence that is pleasant and calm (many of the them are the nicest most decent people you would ever meet), and the presence has almost an alluring and intoxicating quality about it... however, the light they radiate is always diffuse and opaque to me and I know it is not the pure light of love from the Holy Spirit... do you ever sense the same thing or is it just me?

Thanks,

Caneman

Caneman,

In the anecdote above with the man in the hottub, he did not exude a gentleness from his eyes or face. This intoxicating energy was not intrinsically part of his personality. This was an energy that he had somehow aquired, some more external force.

In terms of "people of Indian descent" or just warm, alluring personal energy from somebody, I don't think it would be fair to automatically categorize them as folks who have manipulated some external energy...and I know you are not doing that here, that you are just checking out your experiences with me...

You seem like you are a spiritually sensitive person. Personally, I, too, am sensitive to other's energy and at the same time, there have been times when I think I was just out-right deluded about my senses. While I take seriously that I am a kind of psychic sponge, like in other areas, I'm also fallible and need to remain prayerful and on-guard to my limitations and the conclusions that I draw.

If it's the Holy Spirit of Christ operating in someone, I feel, they are usually quite humble and surrendered--with or without an alluring calm. And the Holy Spirit is always at work in everyone, it seems, tugging at their consciences to choose love and righteousness regardless of their path.

Here's a verse that speaks to this discussion that about Christianity and enlightenement.

St. Paul tells us that Jesus "Who being in the very nature of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant. (Philippians 2)

much peace to you all,
Shasha

Hi Shasha and everyone else,

I'm interested in your discussion of the Holy Spirit. I would like to talk to someone about the Holy Spirit and emotional blockages--severe ones. I understand the psychological part of it (I think), but I would like to talk about how it relates to Christ.

I am wondering about people who have blocked all emotions. Does anyone have any information? I can't give details here and I'm open to e-mailing if anyone is interested. If you have any information, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks,
Pat

No problem at all with what you're sharing, Pat, as it comes from your experience. I think Shasha has made some good points here and in other discussions on this topic. The key issue, it seems to me, is to recognize that not every non-conceptual state nor high energy spiritual state is necessarily an experience of God. They might be psychic/metaphysical in origin, or even from other non-divine entities, some of whom might be malevolent.

The Holy Spirit is a huge topic to take on, and we have a lot on this in the kundalini forum. I also have an online workshop at shalomplace.org Are you asking about the relationship between the Holy Spirit and Christ, or how the Spirit works to heal us?

I was reading Shasha's post that mentioned Narcissistic Personality Disorder and lack of empathy. This brought to mind someone who has thoroughly blocked (not consciously) emotions since childhood and is unable to open up emotionally at all.

Are people who have severely blocked emotions--lack of empathy, joy, sadness and so on--able to feel the Holy Spirit, assuming they are open to it? If someone is emotionally blocked, does that automatically mean that a part of them is blocking the Holy Spirit and Christ, even if it's not done consciously?

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense.

This topic of blocked emotions, healing, and how it relates to the Holy Spirit should be started on another thread as it doesn't quite fit in with "Enlightenment and Christian Spirituality." You could open a new discussion with your question above.

Also, you might benefit from seeing what others have shared on threads already open on this topic....I don't know if they're still in "circulation." I know there was a long one running concering the "false self" that wc was moderating.

Maybe Phil can give some guidance on this....

peace to you, Pat.

Thank you, Shasha. I might start a new thread. I didn't think it quite fit into this category.

I will look for the other threads.

Thanks for the information.

Hello Shasha, Phil, group:

Thank you for sharing also Shasha.
I realize that my confusion is coming from these terms being freely used now in Christianity
and many different understandings of what these terms mean.
There seems to be disagreement within traditional Christianity whether no self, non-dual,
enlightenment is part of the Christian tradition. It's been a process for me to be able to understand
and relate to what is being said in these definitions.The other thing is that the question
i have always asked myself, from the Bible has been what does it mean to love one another as Christ has Loved us. Questions like Who am I: What is other haven't really registered for me.
.
This is how i presently relate to the definitions of no self, or no ego, and true non-dual means NO ego.
This means an inability to care for oneself, can't work ect.during the time one is in the state.
I remember reading about a young man during a Buddhist retreat found wandering through the halls one
night, naked, couldn't speak, couldn't understand words, couldn't feed himself, didn't know how to use the bathroom, ect.
The slate/all programing had been totally cleaned.
Senior meditators cared for him and in a month he was able to start caring for himself
again. However some folks seem to stay in that state of no self/non-dual
or have many extended stays in this state. They must be cared for or they will die.
In some religions this is considered a Holy Person. At this point i don't understand
what they are doing for humanity and don't see how this is part of the Christian
journey..

And then there are those that go into these states for short periods from mins., days.,
weeks, and then they return to duality. I don't know, at this point if this is what i experience
from time to time. There are times when i lose time in prayer. There are times when i seem to be in the moment and my memory isn't worth 2 beans.

There are times when i experience being one
with another or the Earth. When i experience the
suffering (physical and emotional) of another and the Earth in my body. I do not experience this at will.I've never experienced myself as YHWH.
But i have always felt YHWH has given me these
experiences for a purpose.

And when i/we return to ego we are still capable of sin/karma. This is what has really confused
me cause folks are making this sound like they are beyond sin/karma if they experience these
states.


It seems to me that people are using these terms of non-dual, no self but are also functioning
in the world at the level of ego. So according to the above definitions they can not be in
permanent states that they are claiming to be.
They are going back and forth between duality
and non duality.

And there may be some kind of a split in the ego structure that is fooling them into believing
this is a permanant state they are experiencing.
This is simply my opinion here at this moment.

It does seem to be that having these experiences and then returning to ego can be part of
the Christian journey. I don't see it as the focus of it. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks
Ajoy

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:
[qb] Dear Ajoy,

Thank you for sharing your reflections. I went through a period of confusion and searching for answers about whether the Eastern path of enlightenment, non-dual consciousness, and siddhis were related to the Holy Spirit. At various times in my life, I was initiated by three very powerful yogi/gurus.
Shasha [/qb]

Ajoy, you're doing some really deep searching, and I hope you're seeing a spiritual director or someone who can help to provide guidance if these questions are coming out of your own experience.

I've also wondered a lot about the issues you're raising -- partly because of reading about them, partly from personal experience. Where I come out now is that I've no interest in doing anything to deconstruct or annihilate the Ego. By Ego, I am referring to our ordinary sense of self, not the false self, which I view as a system of conditioning/energy inflicting the Ego. I also prefer to keep a relational perspective with respect to the divine rather than viewing non-dual consciousness as the experience of the divine. As a Christian, I accept as revelation that God is Love, and the experience of God is therefore in the Spirit of Love, which, again, emphasizes the relational aspect. If Love wants to draw me into deep states of union, that's fine with me, but I wait on Love to make its move rather than trying to break down the door with various spiritual disciplines.

Truly, I am happy to have an Ego, to be a human, creature, not-God. To participate in the life of divinity is an enormous blessing, and one of which I am unworthy by nature. As you can see, I reject all notions of an innate divinity that is masked by an illusory Ego/sense of individuality. At the same time, I marvel that my individuality participates in a larger Consciousness that does not "belong" to me. Perhaps that is what some mean by non-dual consciousness, but I cannot deny that even in those situations, "I" am still here. And thank God for that!

Dear Ajoy,

I was thinking to respond in virtually the same way as Phil has above.

I have shared elsewhere about the powerful experience I had once after I became "born again" and I had sat down to meditate. I sat down, cross-legged, back straight, relaxed, took a deep breath...all the usual steps that I had done so many times. In fact, from the very first time I sat to meditate, I felt like a duck in water, the easiest thing I've ever done. But this moment, I felt what seemed like the POWER of God literally come upon me, almost knocked me down with a deep, inexplicable conviction of how wrong I was for pursuing meditation. I could see and feel deeply in that split second that, for me, meditation for the sake of achieving / stabalizing the state of enlightenment was SEVERELY WRONG. I felt such shame, Ajoy...it was like seeing clear to the bottom of a deep pool. It was so clear to me that I was called to PRAY, PRAY, AND PRAY...leaving my "ego" was too easy. I needed to become docile to God's purpose and plan and learn to operate in the spiritual gifts. Phil has a great little paper on this topic.

This is not to say that what I learned applies to everybody or anybody else...as many people derive much peace and health benefit, balance, etc. from meditation with the intention to alter their consciousness, but for ME, the intention behind my meditation was taking me definitely OFF the path of God..or that season was over.

Thanks for your sharing, Ajoy.

Interesting points and experiences, Shasha.

For me, personally, there is no distinction between prayer and meditation. Let me qualify that, lest I be misunderstood. Of course there are differences -- radical differences. But not for me personally.

Sitting down to meditate about 25 years ago, I embraced the Jesus Prayer (sometimes called "The Prayer of the Heart"), and let go of other "technique". The inner decision was immediate and total; and I experienced it as though it happened at the core of my being, through grace.

Since that time, the Prayer has been my meditation. And so I practice -- but mostly the Prayer prays itself, as my breath breathes itself. Whether sitting or in action, awakening in the morning, and sometimes while sleeping.

To me the Jesus Prayer is a blessing beyond comprehension!

That sounds wonderful, HP. And in the context of the thread topic, I think it's a good example of Christian contemplative spiritual practice.

I use the Jesus Prayer as well sometimes, and find that it engages my will in a way that I did not experience with mantra type prayers.

Dear friends,

As I read your posts, I am struck that there are probably more "states" related to prayer and meditation than we have terminology, experiences that we can differentiate within ourselves over time but don't have the words to describe them.

For instance, what about the trance-like states that feel like a 'locking on' to God, staring with eyes open, gazing in the distance, immobile, but aware of surroundings? This sometimes just comes to me, unbidden. I don't know if it is prayer or meditation...

Also, there is the full-blown walking and breathing in the Holy Spirit, while going about normal activities, where one's consciousness feels literally absorbed by Grace, or like being 'fed' by God's love. Meditation or prayer?

There are also states of "dissociation," defined by psychiatry, associated with "losing time," derealization, depersonalization, not feeling like you're in your body, etc. These states are linked to trauma sufferings, both during and immediately following trauma and even many years later. If you listen to their subjective experiences, these folks sound a lot like they're describing meditative states. Often, trauma survivors, owing to their terrible psychic pain, will pursue altered states of consciousness and be drawn to techniques and traditions which propose leaving the ego behind. This is not to say that their search for God is any less valid, however, as pain and suffering are common motivators for seeking God through any avenue.

Just some more thoughts...

much peace to you all,
Shasha