quote:

I wonder about the possiblity that these three awakenings are of
the dan tiens instead of chakras.

Mary Sue
dan tiens is just a different word coming from a different tradition (Taoism) for chakra or energy centre. The Taoist system recognises these 3 main energy centres, in tibetan Buddhism they have 5 and Hinduism has 7.

But there are many other systems, which recognise any numbers of chakras.

The path your kundalini took: up at the back, down at the front and up to the heart is fairly typical. It is taught in this way by Mantak Chia.

In Tibetan Buddhism they just say it goes up and down.

The more traditions you study the more variations you find on the same basic idea or theme.

I have never heard Adyashanti say that. He talks extensively about unconditional love, awakening to love, and the profound vulnerability and intimacy of that awakening of the heart, which leads many to describe it as "Oneness". (He also says that is only one aspect of enlightenment, not the whole of it...) I find him a profoundly sensible, clear teacher. He doesn't teach from a particular tradition, but has influences from Zen and Advaita.

quote:

...There are even people who have experienced "enlightenment" who show no signs of awakened kundalini. By enlightenment here I mean that they are awake to themselves as the non-reflecting witness/subject of their consciousness prior to any acts of reflection. Zen, for example, seems to have no use for kundalini, considering it a huge distraction....

Just to come back to this bit: I do think that it is fair enough and not problematic to have a tradition in which the student is discouraged from chasing after various phenomena. In fact, many traditional Christian directions for prayer encourage the student to stay focused (keep the gaze on God) and not get interested in or obsessed with physical or mental phenomena that might arise. It is really easy for people to have a vision or some kind of bodily sensations or emotions arise in meditation/prayer, and then turn that into their focus (I want more of that! I want less of that!)

There's a fine line, i think, between supporting the body/mind through the ups and downs of the various experiences that arise in meditation/prayer; and running off after or running away from those experiences. A directive like "allow things to be as they are" or "simply meet each moment with joyful confidence in Our Lord" will not interfere with the internal processes working themselves out. But it will also prevent the student spending months or years in a self-centered obsession with trying to make certain phenomena happen over and over because they were kind of cool and fun and interesting. In a Christian context, the devil is always delighted to say "Hey, check this out! Don't bother with that boring practice you were doing, this will be fun, make you powerful, make you feel great! Come on!"

That's my take on the "it's a distraction" type of teaching.

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:
You mention a gut awakening as being no-self. Would this be the same as non-dual?

I've dug the book out now. (For those who prefer to read rather than listen, the three levels are described in chapter 9 of The End of Your World.)

I think all three (mind-awakening, heart-awakening, gut-awakening) could be described as nondual, no-self positions. The difference between them is the depth to which they penetrate your way of construing the world.

At the same time, Adyashanti doesn't self-identify as a nondualist. People who call themselves nondualists tend to come out of the traditions originating with Ramana Maharshi.

Adyashanti's favorite definition of the full thing -- gut-awakening -- he draws from Fr. Anthony de Mello: "Enlightenment is absolute cooperation with the inevitable" (ibid., p. 157).

quote:

Originally posted by Ona:

quote:

...There are even people who have experienced "enlightenment" who show no signs of awakened kundalini. By enlightenment here I mean that they are awake to themselves as the non-reflecting witness/subject of their consciousness prior to any acts of reflection. Zen, for example, seems to have no use for kundalini, considering it a huge distraction....

Just to come back to this bit

And a bit more

Bonnie Greenwell was for many years a kundalini therapist. She even wrote a book about it. Then she met Adyashanti and came to the conclusion that she'd been on an entirely wrong spiritual track.

In her essay Where to Stand in the Kundalini Process, she writes:

"In my work with hundreds of people who have activated kundalini energy, coming from all stages and conditions of life, I have found few who become enlightened in the process. Many became more wise and loving, or developed new abilities, or simply stayed for a long time in an in-and-out struggle between mystical experience and frustration with ordinary living. And yet in the yogic tradition kundalini is seen as the method, the path to enlightenment. What I have learned in the last few years through working in the Zen and Advaita Vedanta traditions is that kundalini can be considered not so much a goal, but simply a by-product of spiritual process."

quote:

. . . What I have learned in the last few years through working in the Zen and Advaita Vedanta traditions is that kundalini can be considered not so much a goal, but simply a by-product of spiritual process."

As my kids used to say when they were teenagers: "D'oh!"

I've met Bonnie and Yvonne Kason and Joan Harrigan and the other "kundalini queens," as they were considered at the time (mid-90s). These were very nice women with deep knowledge of k, but I differed with them in considering it concommitant to deepening union with God rather than the means by which such union happened. Big difference! I'm glad to hear that Bonnie has come around.

quote:

Just to come back to this bit: I do think that it is fair enough and not problematic to have a tradition in which the student is discouraged from chasing after various phenomena. . .

I liked your comments there, Ona. As I've noted, the Zen masters I've known did not make a big deal out of kundalini, and saw chasing after "powers" a huge distraction from the true goal of zen, which has no goal (heh heh ) other than to be present to "what is."

quote:

The big event of the kundalini is the total transformation of our mind - being 'forced' to engage in nothing but personal and spiritual development or else suffer great pains.

I believe that it is possible to have very few physical symptoms during a kundalini awakening, particularly if you are whole-heartedly engaged in personal development. I have quite a number of clients like that.

Tara, you wrote this a few days ago, but I just wanted to say that I liked it very much. In fact, I think one of the sure signs of k awakening is that one can no longer "cheat" about anything of relevance to one's personal/spiritual growth as one could before. Consequences are instantaneous, or nearly so, and sometimes hang around for days. The process seems to magnify everything, which does help to keep one's nose to the grind,

We've never discussed the issue of "timing" for an awakening, and I've shared many times that I think it best that this happen on its own, as a consequence of spiritual practice that is deepening in response to contemplative graces. I know that authentic Hindu teachers are careful about communicating shaktipat to their students only when they think the student has been properly prepared. Personally, I do not recommend shaktipat, as it cannot help but be contaminated by the energy/consciousness of the guru. I've come across nightmare cases where gurus and their followers suffer spiritual enmeshments that are resistant to separation (I don't even think the guru intends this, btw). So I steer clear of this, even of stuff like massage and reiki, as the few times I've done it have really messed me up. I do make a distinction between these kinds of practices and the laying on of hands in Christian ministry, as there we call upon Christ himself to minister through the process.

What's your sense, Tara, on the timing of awakenings?

quote:

...the true goal of zen, which has no goal (heh heh ) other than to be present to "what is."

Which is not too far from "Thy will be done..."

quote:

Originally posted by KundaliniTherapist:
Tibetan Buddhism is clear about the fact that love and bliss and also wisdom is the essence of enlightenment.

Hi Tara:

Is there a union of love & compassion also in the heart of practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism?

Would you know if the expression of primordial Buddha & primordial feminine is an expression of kundalini? archetypes? or something deeper?


Samantabhadra patron of the Lotus Sutra (limitless & formless / blue)- primordial Buddha in union with Samantabhadri (wisdom /white)- female Buddha sometimes known as the Great Mother.

Thankyou

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derek:

I think all three (mind-awakening, heart-awakening, gut-awakening) could be described as nondual, no-self positions. The difference between them is the depth to which they penetrate your way of construing the world. "

Thank you Derek. From what i'm hearing you say, if he doesn't self-identify himself as a nondualist then it seems that it's another buyer beware situation.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mary Sue,

quote:

I have never heard Adyashanti say that. He talks extensively about unconditional love, awakening to love, and the profound vulnerability and intimacy of that awakening of the heart, which leads many to describe it as "Oneness". (He also says that is only one aspect of enlightenment, not the whole of it...) I find him a profoundly sensible, clear teacher. He doesn't teach from a particular tradition, but has influences from Zen and Advaita.

That sounds wonderful and I am sorry if I have been putting him unfairly into the category of non-duality teachers who say that you don't need bliss within that experience(e.g. Richard Sylvester and several others who I have come across during the last few years).

quote:

Bonnie Greenwell: What I have learned in the last few years through working in the Zen and Advaita Vedanta traditions is that kundalini can be considered not so much a goal, but simply a by-product of spiritual process."

From the Tibetan Buddhist view it is neither the goal nor a by-product but a condition of enlightenment. Having said that, if you practice for long enough (any meditation) the kundalini will awaken naturally and in that sense it may be seen as a by-product.

But that is not quite the right word. I would see it as an important stepping stone, just like - let's say - driving a car or being able to use a computer is an important stepping stone for becoming independent for an adolescent.

But let's remember that for many people the kundalini awakening is not such a big event. I remember one case-study in Bonnie Greenwell's book of a woman who simply experienced a steady increase of bliss.

The idea of kundalini has been distorted by books about kundalini, which give the wrong impression that it somehow needs to be a catastrophe or by people like Kurt Keutzer who say that as long it is not a freight-train going up your spine it's not the 'real thing'.

That is simply not true. I have engaged (in part unknowingly) in kundalini awakening practices all my life. Bio-energetic therapy in my early twenties, Mantak Chia's Taoist approach in my late twenties and tummo from my mid 30s onwards. (I am now 52) I have known numerous people who had 'results' from these practices without going into any major crisis.

As a kundalini therapist on the other hand I deal with numerous people who are having a major crisis. In most cases, this is due to being ill-prepared: no sufficient spiritual path, no witness consciousness and general inability or unwillingness to deal with emerging unconscious material.

quote:

What's your sense, Tara, on the timing of awakenings?

I am not sure, Phil. I would of course see this as being directed by someone's karma. I myself have a strong karma to have a kundalini awakening in my life as I naturally steered towards it from an early age. It's also clearly indicated in my horoscope (Pluto in conjunction with moon node in a trine to jupiter, if anyone is interested).

Shaktipat is a risky endeavour as you rightly point out. However, I could not help but giving my poor husband shaktipat
Now I have to deal with the aftermath of that.
No, seriously, I did give him shaktipat and I do help him to get through the process and he is really glad about both. (He's a great husband!!)

In tibetan Buddhism there are teachers who only explain the tummo practice to a select few and those who openly teach it to everyone (like Lama Yeshe in his book: the bliss of inner fire)

In the book that I am writing now (if I am not distracted by writing on the forum - lol) will explain an extremely safe and conservative approach to awakening the kundalini. I feel there is so much misinformation out there that I would like to offer some good info as well.

quote:

Is there a union of love & compassion also in the heart of practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism?

Would you know if the expression of primordial Buddha & primordial feminine is an expression of kundalini? archetypes? or something deeper?


Samantabhadra patron of the Lotus Sutra (limitless & formless / blue)- primordial Buddha in union with Samantabhadri (wisdom /white)- female Buddha sometimes known as the Great Mother.

Mary Sue
the Buddha mind is seen as in the heart of us. it is the union of love/compassion and wisdom/power.

The word primordial points to our divine nature like in the primordial ground.

Archetypes is a term coming from Karl Jung and has nothing to do with Buddhim

The kundalini is called tummo in Tibetan Buddhism which is translated as 'fierce woman'. However, my perception of this is that for a woman the kundalini is like a man - it's the other gender in ourselves.

As Tibetan Buddhist teaching was largely taught by men for men it is biased in that sense.

The primordial buddha is not the kundalini. The Buddha is the union of love and kundalini/power.

This union is symbolised of a female and male deity in sexual union (yab yum)

Hope this makes sense.

I have received tummo empowerment. It helped me to awaken manipura, after which events took its own course.

My retreat master summarized the goal of the practice as follows: to merge the Father and the Mother essence at the Heart. The Mother essence is bliss, the Father essence is emptiness. Tummo is the marriage of bliss are emptiness.
As such, you can also easily see why not every K awakening leads to "leading a decent life". Some people are hooked up on the bliss of the experience (Tara made this remark on the board concerning the ayp-people in general). Others get swamped in emptiness. However, the true goal is not reaching out for the Father, nor for the Mother. As a good Son, you must reach out for Both and demonstrate you inherited good traits from both of them