OK, Eric, I understand the clarifications you are making, but I would suggest to you again that what you are describing is naught but the non-reflecting aspect of the human spirit. I'd also suggest that your spirit isn't anything but human, and that its having a human experience is exactly what it was created to do. Your ability to "tune into" this aspect of spirit isn't common, but you're right in saying that once one comes to know it, it's so obvious. Nevertheless, people can be trained to do this with the right coaching, and they can come to discriminate between the intentional and non-intentional aspects of consciousness.

Consider this -- that if you could "tune in" to some kind of eternal self, this would signifiy that you are God, for only God is eternal, and only God could voluntarily tune in to "God's self."

That non-reflecting aspect of spirit can feel impersonal, ancient and really different. That's because, as spirit, it abides in a relam beyond space-time and opens out into the whole cosmos. It also puts us in touch with the ground of our being, where we are one with all human beings.

This is a really good experience, Eric, and I'm happy you've come to know it at so young an age. Now you can always find detachment from the bumpy ride that people absorbed in intentionality go through. Nevertheless, you also have to figure out how to get your intentional and non-intentional aspects of consciousness to work in happy tandem.

You sound like you are really close, Brad. You will laugh when you realize how silly everything appears. For, your whole life you have had this perception the whole time. You only failed to recognize it. At least I did.

I hope you're right, Eric. Intractable things can be so�well�intractable. Last night I watched Walking with Cavemen. From it I learned that apparently homo habilis was the first tool-making hominid. He appeared around 2.5 million years ago or so. As you see in the photo from the link, he (and perhaps she as well�you never know) made some type of a hand axe out of stone, and made it very well. Now here's the interesting bit. Homo habilis started making those stone axes over two million years ago, presumably when the species first appeared. Homo habilis, as it turns out, was a long-lived species and one million years later he was still making tools. But after one million years (think about that length of time) you'd think ol' homo hab would be making stone shavers or at least stone ice scrapers (for their Fred Flintstone cars). The absolutely amazing thing is that after one million years they were making the exact same tool and nothing else. Nothing new. The design of the stone axe was the same.

This was explained on the program as a matter of a limitation of the brain manifesting as a limitation of creativity and consciousness. This limitation was presented as being analogous to a bird making a nest. A bird can build a nest quite competently but probably doesn't think about what other materials might work better or how to make it structurally stronger or even what other different types of nests it could build given the same twigs and branches. It just does it on instinct. So apparently did homo habilis make his stone tools. There was missing some type of awareness that could lead to further progress.

Surely different levels of consciousness exist and we can get stuck, like ol' homo habilis, between levels. But I often think that some of the major difficulties we face are not "levels of consciousness" questions as much as a question of being stuck in other more mundane stuff. One's consciousness can quite literally soar with the eagles while the actual bird body can be weighed to the ground with the bricks of "should do's", "could do's", "must do's" and "oughta do's". We know. We're conscious (and painfully so) of the freedom that would be open to us if we could just drop some ballast. But it's easier said than done. I believe there is more, much more, going on than just leaping through levels of consciousness.

On the other hand, that's just what a person who's been making the same damn stone tool for all these years would say.

"Consider this -- that if you could "tune in" to some kind of eternal self, this would signifiy that you are God, for only God is eternal, and only God could voluntarily tune in to "God's self." "

ahhh, now what about the angels? I have never read a verse about when the angels were created. There might be but I am just ignorant to the fact.

But if I am correct. At least from biblical perspective angels appear to have existed for ever. At what time and or place out of infinity did angels start to exist? Yet they are not God.

As a matter of fact at what point of time inside of infinity did God desire to create in the first place? It is hard to comprehend these levels of madness.

If God was/is/will be the same unchanging God forever what created a desire in his mind to create in the first place? Does the desire to create stem from a lack of something? I don't mean that in a heresy type of way. What I am saying is that if God was unchanging and perfect he should not have any desires?

The real point I am trying to make is that nothing existed until the moment of first creation. Not even time itself. So time does not even apply to the one who created it. Prior to creation God had nothing to be God over. So what was God(the creator) God of before he created? Logical reason would say creation has to have a God to create it. Then reverse that. If there is no creation is there a God?

Is it possible that the human spirit was created at the first moment of creation in some form or another? But did not come to exist as a human "soul" until God breathed a breath of life into Adam's nostrils.

Then another philosphy I have read from near death experiences. A person said that they died and went to the third heaven. They asked an angel where God was. The angels chuckled to themselves. They said God is every where. God has broken himself up into the awareness of every living thing. So that he can experience himself in every way possible. So in a sense every living thing is a part of God and all things will come back together in the end. I didn't say I believe that but it is interesting.

I have also read of re-incarnation. That the spirit (jiva) is the immortal part of the person. But the soul is the existing part of the living person. When the person dies the soul dies and the spirit acts like a data recorder of Karma and creates another soul inside of another living person.

I do understand what you are saying. Maybe I am unconsciously absorbing different philosophies into my experience or something. I am more confused than ever really.............(Phil see my newer post on angels down below)

"That non-reflecting aspect of spirit can feel impersonal, ancient and really different. That's because, as spirit, it abides in a relam beyond space-time and opens out into the whole cosmos. It also puts us in touch with the ground of our being, where we are one with all human beings."

You are so right. I think maybe I am trying to trivialize the experience. There is a part of self that feels ancient and that it did at one time exist in another realm outside of space-time. I felt strongly about this when I had a full Kundalini awakening. When I had a full Kundalini awakening I felt like I was on earth and in heaven.

It feels like the real-self has some how put on virtual-reality -space-time- glasses in the eternal world he lives in. I am just the character in the game he is playing. But it got so real that the real-self forgot that it was virtual-reality and became deluded to think that "Eric" was really him. Excuse the poor metaphors.

"Surely different levels of consciousness exist and we can get stuck, like ol' homo habilis, between levels. But I often think that some of the major difficulties we face are not "levels of consciousness" questions as much as a question of being stuck in other more mundane stuff. One's consciousness can quite literally soar with the eagles while the actual bird body can be weighed to the ground with the bricks of "should do's", "could do's", "must do's" and "oughta do's". We know. We're conscious (and painfully so) of the freedom that would be open to us if we could just drop some ballast. But it's easier said than done. I believe there is more, much more, going on than just leaping through levels of consciousness."


Brad there is much truth to that. We have piled up stress and responsibilities up to a dense level. Add that to all the dogmas and conditioning in your life. Not very easy to undo the glue that makes you...........you.

Brad there is much truth to that. We have piled up stress and responsibilities up to a dense level. Add that to all the dogmas and conditioning in your life. Not very easy to undo the glue that makes you...........you.

You are so right, Eric. Also, I'm more than willing to admit that I could be stuck at a lower level of consciousness�or simply haven't visited all the rooms in the consciousness I�m in. I've read bits and piece of new-age stuff around the net, and I'm not referring to anyone here, even obliquely, with this next thought, but it seems there are often "consciousness" wars that break out, much like testosterone wars that break out in a bar. People try to outdo each other. One's level of consciousness is worn like a badge of honor � whether or not that level exists. I have to admit my bias and skepticism. But I also know (trust, really) that such exquisite, light, loving and pleasing states of consciousness exist, much as you have described for yourself. That I do not doubt, particularly since your metaphors are so rich and complex and metaphor is certainly a language I understand. It is probably the only language that can properly describe the indescribable. Your remarkable descriptions of your experience are making a believer out of me so I do hope you continue.

But I would be remiss if I did not at least address what more than a couple lurkers out there surely must be thinking: "Do I have to have some type of other-worldly experience to be happy or to advance on the path of spirituality?" I suspect that others can answer this better, but my answer would be "No." I'm a firm believer in seeing the world in a grain of sand and that sand can be represented by so many things. At times it even seems that a lack of consciousness or awareness can be the most meaningful and pleasurable of things, such as when we are lost in a semi-meditative state doing gardening or a crossword puzzle or staring at the clouds.

That's me, as always, bringing balance as well as a little pessimism wherever I go.

Angels were created. This is clearly implied in Psalm 148:2,5�"Praise Him, all His angels....For He commanded and they were created." Colossians 1:16-"For in Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities-all things were created through Him and for Him."

Genesis 2:1 "Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished" seems to indicate that creation stopped on the 6th day, so they were created before that time. Job 38:4-7-"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

It might be assumed that angels may have all been created together at the same time since there is no evidence to indicate that they produce offspring. Matthew 22:30-"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."


God stopped creating on the 6th day. So if God stopped creating then would he not have already created my spirit before the sixth day ended? If we were to say God is still creating today (saying that my spirit was created the day of my conception) then wouldn't that go against scripture?

Would it not be plausible that God created my spirit during the period of creation. The stored it somewhere awaiting my birth? Or could it be plausible that my spirit existed since the creation of time itself but not before it. Thus making some part of me eternal?

I am just asking if this is possible.

"but it seems there are often "consciousness" wars that break out, much like testosterone wars that break out in a bar. People try to outdo each other. One's level of consciousness is worn like a badge of honor � whether or not that level exists. I have to admit my bias and skepticism"

As well you should. I always question everything. Maybe a little too much. I noticed the "wars" also. I would have to humbly bow out of such things. Everyone has a differnet experience. Calling one better than the other shows unenlightenment. Each one is unique and for that person. I do believe however that some are gifts of grace from God and others are achieved or attained. Brad I honestly feel that the prisoner who shared his experience was almost identical to mine. More so than the others.I share some of the same as Phil's and others. But the prisoner's one more so than any others.


"But I would be remiss if I did not at least address what more than a couple lurkers out there surely must be thinking: "Do I have to have some type of other-worldly experience to be happy or to advance on the path of spirituality?"


No way! I think not. Some people may be born advanced and not realize it. Others may be happy and content with what they have at what ever level. Some people follow God blindly with faith such as the nuns Phil was talking about. I give them my up-most respect.

I was a mean cruel person. If God would not have interviened in my life I would be heading straight for hell. It has been rough. I would never wish for the experience to stop though. I don't think I am anymore special than anyone else. I feel just the opposite, like a freak.

The way I see it, God has formed me and continues the formation process. Since only God can see from
Omega, everything is perfect and perfectly formed from that perspective. It's only here that I see as through a glass darkly. God delights in giving a peek now and then. Some are invited into an inner circle and some become even more intimate. It's not elitist, just the way that things are.

Yes, angels are considered created immortal spirits with a beginning but no end.

God stopped creating on the 6th day. So if God stopped creating then would he not have already created my spirit before the sixth day ended? If we were to say God is still creating today (saying that my spirit was created the day of my conception) then wouldn't that go against scripture?

Not unless you're a fundamentalist who believes the "6th day" has come and gone. I don't take that account so literally, nor do I think it was intended as a scientific statement. As MM noted, it's likely that God's vision of creation was always present to God from the beginning, then allowed to unfold in space and time. In that sense, we have always existed in God's mind as an idea long before we actually came to be created. That's not the same thing as actually existing, however, nor is it anything that the experience you're describing indicates.

When Jesus says that in heaven we are "like angels," he is not saying that we were once angels, nor that we are some kind of spiritual being other than human. The way I undertand this is that we will have spiritual bodies that no longer have need for food nor to reproduce; this doesn't preclude the possibility of extraordinary delight and intimacy, however.

I was a mean cruel person. If God would not have interviened in my life I would be heading straight for hell. It has been rough. I would never wish for the experience to stop though. I don't think I am anymore special than anyone else. I feel just the opposite, like a freak.

I believe you, Eric. I believe you not because I still see rough edges, the shadows of what you have left behind, but because I know only too well the world of the non-freak. The world of the non-freak consists of doing without thinking, fearing without loving, and conforming without soul. It's no wonder a raise of consciousness is needed. There are so many things in our world geared to keep us right where we are, doing just what we're doing. We need a higher perspective if we are to crawl out. And when we do crawl out we discover how singular and freakish we indeed are. Different things become important to us -- things that others may scoff or laugh at. Instead of "bagging" another babe we might freakishly learn that our real manhood flows from the genuine love of one woman and the care and fidelity we bring to that relationship. Instead of considering whatever work we're doing as menial and beneath us, the freak in us knows that we are not "suckers" for trying to do a good job and to please others.

No, I've made up my mind. You're an extraordinary individual. A freak. A loving freak.

Phil, I am drawn to your interpretation. It does feel that a part of me is eternal. The more I think about it then I see that it could be a part of the non-reflective self.

Let me emphisize the part of me that feels eternal though. I have had several experiences that are radically different. The Kundalini awakening, a realization of true-self and a feeling of Christ inside of me.

When I look back on the experiences the time when I felt that Christ had destoyed the "self" and replaced it with his "self". That time felt like there was something eternal about it. I literally felt like I was looking out through the eyes of Christ. No other words of description come to mind. Christ became a part of me. It was a "knowing" without a doubt. There were no questions. There were no doubts. There were no words. It was Christ. I know for a fact because it feels like that was programmed into my brain and out of my control. It was God.


The phrase "being born again" took on a whole new meaning that day. How radically important those words seem to me now. I never knew what it meant. I do now. I do feel like a new creature. The old me was replaced with something else.

I was shown what divine love felt like. It cannot be described. Natural love seems so insignificant compared to divine love. Natural love is a seed that should be watered though. The best description of Divine love I can give is like you are being electricuted with millions of volts of love. When you are experiencing this you see "the big picture". Everything is perfect.

Frankly, I am depressed. The only thing I care about any more is feeling that again.

I would like to add something although I have my reservations about doing so. I must add this to give clarity to my experience despite what others may think.

During my first experience I had a vague vision of Christ. It was like that ever so popular picture of him. I don't know the name but the one with a heart drawn on it. It was that one. I also felt like I was in the heart. Weird isn't it?

Frankly, I am depressed. The only thing I care about any more is feeling that again.

Eric, I've had a couple times in the last ten years or so when an unexpected peace fell upon me for a short time. It feels like it will last forever but, at least so far, it lasted, at best, a day. It's always in the back of my mind to get that feeling back. If only I can unlock the code. If only I can think the right thoughts, say or do the right things, believe the right ideas.

I don't think my brief experiences were religious in nature, but I'm not sure of that. But yours sure sound like they are so perhaps there is really no comparison between you and me. I would be glad if those peaceful feelings returned again and stayed permanently. I would have no argument with that. But looking back, in trying to get those feelings to return I realize that I was as much running away from myself as running towards some place that I thought desirable or sacred. It made me consider again what I have heard others say about transformation, that the road is through, not over or around. Perhaps we're given a taste of something to whet our appetites or to show us what is possible. But in our zealousness for "the feeling" we forget the humbleness, surrender, and love that had got us there in the first place. I'm not sure, but I'd say that our desire, perhaps even our greed, for these feelings helps to chase them away. In the words of MM on another thread:

quote:

I recall a depression where I missed school for a couple of weeks at 17 and it was as if I had mono or something. I went in to see the guidance counselor and was not feeling really very good about myself. She looked me right in the eye and told me that I was a worthwhile person. Perhaps someday I'll track this angel down and thank her for saving my life!

I think a huge part of our spiritual and transformational journey is accepting ourselves exactly as we are. If we are made by God then who are we to question the design? Something foremost in my mind is the way that highly peaceful and highly spiritual people find the greatest pleasures and joys in the most mundane and simple of tasks. They see beauty where I see ugliness. They see completeness where I see only the broken. They feel love where I feel only need.

I feel so absolutely stupid sometimes because it seems that peace is right there, so close at hand that I could touch it. But there are some things, some notions, some wants that I find extremely difficult to give up. I think I've excised a number of the conscious ones but I think the unconscious is just chock full of little gremlins trying to make my life miserable.

So I guess, Eric, that my message is that I�m in no position to give you any kind of advice on how to find peace or how to find God. But you are a worthwhile person and I hope you can feel the sacredness in your everydayness, in your small joys, in your small pains. Not all the time, but maybe some of the time.

There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. - Albert Einstein

"Eric, I've had a couple times in the last ten years or so when an unexpected peace fell upon me for a short time. It feels like it will last forever but, at least so far, it lasted, at best, a day. It's always in the back of my mind to get that feeling back. If only I can unlock the code. If only I can think the right thoughts, say or do the right things, believe the right ideas."


I could not say it any more perfectly. I guess the lesson is not to search for the feeling. I believe you are right. We might possibly forget the thing that got us there in the first place. Also if it was a gift of grace then perhaps there is nothing I can ever do.

Once you have a taste of the real thing nothing else will quite do...............

Once you have a taste of the real thing nothing else will quite do...............

I think you reach into the mystery of why things aren't that way all the time. There seems to be no logical reason that they couldn't be. What I struggle with each and every day, Eric, is to find reasons to live and reasons to love. I think it's ever so slowly sinking into this thick skull that the universe is not going to align itself to suit me�or if it in factdoes that it will require a lot of love and wisdom on my part to recognize this.

The male of the species might have it particularly tough. It is in our nature to actively change and master the world around us if things aren't to our liking. But there's seemingly no object or thing at which we can swing our stone axes in order to bring us the peace, love and Godness that we seek. The enlightened, spiritual man must try to master the balance between active and passive. I think this is one of the hardest lessons of all.

It all boils down to one thing. My will and the will of God. The more I try to enforce my will the worse off I am.

Free will is a curse. Free will is hell. God is the only thing that matters. We are all being tested every single day. Every single day most of us fail.

I don't really love God. Well, in the human sense anyway. I can't love God because I don't understand God.

There are to many horrible things going on in the world for me to love God. It's not my fault I don't understand him. Why does a 3 year old die of horrible pain from cancer? Beacause God wanted it to happen. Why? Just because he wanted it to.


We are always trying to judge God. Every single day. When we get angry with him. When we curse at him. When we defy him. We are not supposed to judge anyone especially him. Do you know the only reason God is good? Because he says he is. He is the one who decides what the standards of goodness are. He is the creator!

I can not judge him anymore. I can not say horrible things happen anymore. I can't understand God at all. It is all maddness. I have one choice in this world and one choice alone. To submit to God.

I have learned something by submiting to God. I don't have to make choices anymore. I don't have to try and understand him. I might not like the things God does but it is ok as long as I accept them. And from that I have learned to love God in a whole new way.

Do you know why I love God? Do you ever smell that beautiful smell on a summer morning? If you get up right when the sun is comming up you can smell it. Where does that smell come from? Why is it so pleasant. Scientifically all that is happening is the world is spinning getting 12 hours of light and darkness. But where does that beautiful smell come from? That is why I love God.

When a child looks you in the eye and says, "I love you". That is why I love God.

When a thunderstorm puts you to sleep at 3 am. That is why I love God.

I love God because no matter how much pain is in the world it is all a beautiful creation. Our God is a God of love. We are all just children in this play-pen called planet Earth.

We don't understand why things happen. Just like when you are little you don't understand why your parents correct you. You think it is mean at the time. But as you age you understand why.

That is why I love God.

Even Jesus was hesitant to do the Father's will.

The Father's will is hard. But it is the only choice. Everything else is just a delusion.

Ok, I need help again. I was writing a reply, I have been on vacation and was catching up on the reading and began writing a reply. I scrolled back up to where I was reading and then scrolled back down to the reply for the 2nd time of doing this and it was gone! Help? What did I do or should I have done it differently?

Diane, I don�t know what could have happened. No offense intended to what appears to be a quite stable and full-featured version of InfoPop�s forum software, but web applications like this are notoriously buggy and unstable. I recommend that if people are jotting down more than a sentence or two that they do so in a separate word processing application where they can save as they go along. The spell checking and grammar features of the word processor can also come in handy.

It�s possible that you had highlighted the text in your post and then accidentally hit the spacebar with your sleeve. I�ve done that before.

quote:

When a child looks you in the eye and says, "I love you". That is why I love God.

When a thunderstorm puts you to sleep at 3 am. That is why I love God.

Your words remind me of The Canticle of Brother Sun, Eric.


What I love is the quiet in the morning before the day has "officially" begun. This is the time that doesn�t have to be earned, doesn�t have to be spent. It is just for its own sake. Nobody is yet trying to mold it or change it. It just is. I know I need to extend this is-ness throughout the whole day and to be aware of the things I do (or the things I allow others to do) that destroy it. But I do enjoy those few moments in the quiet morning.

In the quiet morning I have not yet soiled the day with worry or need. I have not polluted the morning air with the breath of fear. The golden rays of the sun, or even the gray-blue of the rainy sky, are colors not yet stained with my imperfect and often misdirected intentions.

We�re so lucky sometimes that we don�t get the morning we deserve, that it "resets" itself no matter what we have done the day before. If the morning followed some of my moods the sky might appear just a bit smoggier each day until one morning I woke up virtually in LA.

Peace is such a valuable commodity, yet we throw it away too easily. We stress over saving and recycling a piece of cardboard or plastic and yet give not a second thought to the things we do to ourselves and each other that destroys something far more precious than type 2 plastic.

Yes, preserving that "morning fresh" feeling is also every man�s secret desire.

Thank you for your words, Eric, which have created something beautiful this morning.

Thanks, Brad. I didn't know I created anything beautiful this morning. Sometimes just I have these outbursts of feelings.

Yes, the morning is quite pleasant. It is a new start. No fears or anythings. Just a brand new day. The mind is usually the most quite when you first arouse too. What a nice "coincidence" that is. Everything is reset.

Thank you Brad, I will try again. This is an absolutely wonderful and informative thread.

I don't know if this is true for others but having a kundalini experience has had a profound change on my life.

I was pretty much an atheist until I had my first awakening. I thought that death was the end of existence and I feared death at all times. I also had no idea of what love really was.

I have to admit that in about 15 minutes of my first "k" experience all of those thoughts were shattered forever.

I now have an enormous amount of faith. I strive for love and fear death no longer. Death has become a mystery that I wish to understand instead of a fearful enemy of mine. God is now the center of my life.

Any thoughts from anyone?

Man can go to the moon but only God can make a tree............

A nice website I can relate to.

http://www.kundalini-teacher.com/awakening/types.html