The word sin comes from an ancient word used in archery. When an arrow fell short of its target it was called a sin. When you sin you are merely "missing the mark" with God.

God would no more hate you than you would your child if he was a D student in school. You can however fail and be sent back a grade.

Some people that have had near death experiences say that when you sin you are simply learning lessons in the school of life & higher learning.

I can relate to many of the things you say. Anxiety can be hell. How your body and mind feels effects everything even your spirituality.

It is saddening to hear that you have abandened God. But maybe what you are really saying is that you have changed the way you look at God compared to the way everyday fundamentalist do. I would like to hear more about your experiences though.

Asher,I often get pressure in the head. It is usually in the forehead area. When I try to ignore the pressure or work around it then it gets worse.

When I submit to the pressure it is so much easier. Then I feel ok with it and a subtle sense of joy.

I still get chest pains and pains in my left shoulder right on the backside. Nothing I do has helped that.

Also when you have a panic attack you can start hyperventalating and that can cause delusions. I have had that too. You start to feel disconnected from everything and usually the pupils will be dilated.

Eric, you'll excuse my exuberance, I hope. I'm grateful to discuss these issues as you have obviously had to a profound opening. I can often come across as confrontational when I'm simply questioning the inherent ways that I see things (rather than you), in this case experiences, of which I have been blessed with many, outside (for the most part) of any religious context. You wrote something intriguing:

"The word sin comes from an ancient word used in archery. When an arrow fell short of its target it was called a sin. When you sin you are merely "missing the mark" with God."

I have come to see something radically different. When I sin I come closer to God. Althought, I much admire this idea of "missing the mark" and the theology that is implicit therein, I cannot agree. Sin brought be closer to repentence, brought me closer to faith, and ultimately brings me into a relationship with God which is based on faith. Faith is, knowing that I am loved in the heart of my sinfulness and hence, the problematic notion of guilt doesn't affect me as much as it used to, when for example there was a cleft between an experience or intuition of God and my self. Furthermore, those experiences, in retrospect (although they continue on a daily basis), seem to not root me into God, but they suggest a separation from God, even if they are experienced in the moment as a oneness. What I'm saying is that ones intrinsic sin does not change by going high, but by being pushed into hell, where I find my God and cry out to Him. This I wouldn't change for the world. I am happy that he loves me, overjoyous, in fact, and in this darkness and He gazes through me and my sinfulness is seen for for it is. Yes, it is off mark, but so is the whole human condition. So he is kind to me and I, in return, learn to see Him in a different fashion then I did when I was "high" on him. Such an understanding of the multidimentionality of Him, of how high is always deep, down is always up seems pertinent to me. Especially when he is present in my pain. This seems to link me in a way that high experiences could never do, exclusively. I see this all as the beginning of seeing that my life is in his hands. Let me have panic attacks, let me hate others, and in this way he comes to me in a fashion I had never before seen. This being known by him, in darkness is the only reason that keeps me going. I have no faith in him as one quality. He is always more, He is always has greater depths. He always needs nuacing in the being, and until he reveals to me a trust that is unfaltering, I will consider myself a lost man, with no religion, no home. I have not lost God, rather I have seen that he is implicit in a place that I once feared, and the heights divorced me from the depths and I was blinded, as a conseqence. Now I walk, and I don't pray. I have good will and all goodness comes from him and I want to not want. Let him be what he must and do what he must. I have suffered enough to not care if I suffer more. That sounds pitiful and self indulgent, but its a fact. And if I have panic attacks, he is there even. Marharshi once said to a one of his disciples who had taken him to court and eventually went back to him and said I am in hell. He responded that he was there too.

Anyway, that just came out and I have no intention to change you views. I simply wanted to share mine, divorced as it is from a Christian context. It is my own. Yes, submission to the pressure has always been correct for myself, as well. It often means drinking a beer, or laughing with some friends...but when I once prayed, I noticed it and it became the object of my prayer, or simply a distraction. Now that I sit with some blokes in a bar and discuss Faustus, I have less of a problem. These energies flow on their own accord and underneath them is faith. This has been my life this year and this has been where I find my God.

Kind Regards,

Asher

Well, what I was saying is that is where we got the word "sin". It is intersting to note that many people view sin differently.

A common belief is that when we sin we are defying God instead of merely missing the mark. One view suggest defiance the other view suggest that we are just not capable of staying in step with Gods will. The truth may lie somewhere in the middle.

I think I understand what you are saying. That when you sin you feel closer to God beacause he will offer you grace by loving you unconditionaly no matter how bad the sin. The more you sin, the more grace is shown.

Let me post some things and let me know if I am following you correctly. I am by no means judging you or harping on you. I am just trying to fully understand what you are saying. Let me know if these verses support your feelings. Then we can continue on farther.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:9

Certain Holiness groups infer from this and similar verses that God is willing to grant the believer a second work of grace which will lift him to sinless perfection. But John does not mean that a normal Christian lives on a cloud floating high above the sin and filth of this world. If sinless perfection were possible, surely the likeliest believer to attain such an exalted state would be the beloved disciple himself. Yet he says,

If we [including John and the believers he is addressing] say that we have [in the present tense] no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:8

John explicitly includes himself among those who must admit that they now have sin. The possibility that any Christian may sin is implied a few verses later.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we [a term inclusive of John] have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1 John 2:1

Here, then, we find a contrast between every believer, who is liable to sin, and his sinless Advocate. Because the believer has an advocate in Christ, he need not fear that sin will bring the loss of his salvation. Every confessed sin will certainly be forgiven.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9

It is true not only that all believers have sin, but also that a believer can fall into a sin so grievous that God must take his life (1 John 5:16-17). If his offense is less serious, it is the privilege of fellow believers to pray for the fallen brother, beseeching God to deal with him not in wrath but in grace, so that he might live and become useful again in God's service (same reference).

What then does 1 John 3:9 mean when it says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"? An equally strong assertion to the same effect comes later in the book.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 5:18

The proper interpretation of these verse hinges on the verb tenses. In 1 John 2:1, quoted above, the verbs "sin" are in the aorist tense, implying a single act of sin. But the verbs "doth commit" and "sin" in 1 John 3:9 and "sinneth" in 1 John 5:18 (as well as "sinneth" and "sinneth" in 1 John 3:6 and "committeth" in 1 John 3:8) are in the present tense, implying continual sinning. John is teaching that sin is not the habitual practice of anyone entitled to call himself a Christian�that a true Christian has abandoned a life controlled by sin.

In practical terms, how may we apply this second test to our own lives? Perhaps the most helpful question is this: How do I react after I have committed a sin? Am I troubled by a bad conscience? Do I sense the convicting presence of the Holy Spirit? Do I try to stop sinning? Do I eventually have victory over the sin?

It might be helpful to see what John means by sin. He says,

All unrighteousness is sin: . . . .

1 John 5:17

He means that sin is anything arising from an unrighteous motive. Not all of the blunders in our speech and conduct are rooted in unrighteousness. Many are simply the outgrowth of human imperfection. We may forget. We may fail to think ahead. We may not have enough understanding of a situation to act appropriately. We may lack ability to succeed in what we set out to do. But persistent human imperfection is not what John means by continual sinning. Rather, continual sinning is habitual failure to obey God.

Hi Eric--

You wrote:

"I think I understand what you are saying. That when you sin you feel closer to God beacause he will offer you grace by loving you unconditionaly no matter how bad the sin. The more you sin, the more grace is shown."

What I mean is that my first fruitful encounter(s) with God occured in sin. Not when I was blessed with the experiences of God, not when the self fell away, or in any sort of flash of non dual insight. I began to see those as a departure from Him, in some regards. It was this year, when I dove into what I had denyed for years. This is a personal account, not in any way questioning your experience. I have no clue about you, besides what you have written. And the Bible quotes although inspiring, I cannot relate to. I can only go by what I know. To try to put it into a framework would be disrespectful to the experience and to the Christian tradition. So I will not pretend to understand those quotes--as you have pointed out how semantics effects any response. So I have trouble understanding what is meant by:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:9

I don't feel born of God. All I can say is He is most present in the depths of darkness, rather than in the heights of light. The heights of light led me nowhere. They are endless. But unless the body, the vitality etc are moored in God, they are essentially meaningless to me. They come, they go. In that sense, they are not different from thoughts, I suppose.

But I still have faith. God is still here. He doesn't vanish suddenly. I sin. This sin is not in and of itself God. But for some reason, He makes me more aware of Himself when I sin, at times. By His presence, at times as well as His absence. His absence often is felt as something palpable, like a heart palpitation. He is there and yet He is not there. I can locate Him at will, but as soon as I locate Him, I lose Him. He has its own intelligence, apart from me, and yet nuanced and fleshed within my sin...with this self that has shattered into pieces, not because it has awakened, but because it is lost.

I've posted here before Eric. I'm only here to listen now. I don't care to go into my beliefs, which I have written above. You are indeed blessed and I am very glad to read your writing. I also thank you for posting some of the Biblical material, although I cannot read it anymore. Or at least today. Perhaps I'm overburdened with an essay on Bakhtin and I don't have the time or the inclination at present to try to understand what the Bible says. And even if I could, I would not be able to make a link with certainty, because I am not a Christian.

Most Kindly,

Asher

Your situation is an intersting one. It is full of such complexity. I know that when I sin and especially on purpose I do also feel an extreme presence of God.

If I go all day without thinking of God and then become self absorbed into a sin. Usually after the sin I feel aweful. I feel like I let God down and I feel ashamed and weak. Are you saying that you feel the opposite of this?

Also you say that you are not a Christian. IF you were raised up in any religion may I ask what it was. I thought you had mentioned something about Pakistan. Were you Muslim?

I am in no way insisting this is the case with you but going back through some of your old post I have read things that hint at a little bit of Bi-Polar disorder.

Some of the things that appear to be mood swings with spiritual overtones are a common thing I have heard from people with B/P.

There is a close link between the nervous system and sprituality. My brother has B/P and use to be very religious and a lot of your post sounds like a lot of the stuff he says now. He has abandoned religion all together.

The hells you talk about almost parallel the low depressive swing that a person with b/p has.


I hope I haven't offended you because that was surely not what I am trying to do. I am merely pointing out that a lot of what you are saying is very reflective of many of the things my brother says. If you have manic high episodes along with those hellish ones it is a sure bet that you probably might have b/p.

I am not trying to take away from your experiences at all just merely offering something for you to consider. B/P disorder is often always associated with anxiety and panic attacks.

I have read about spiritual experiences that people with b/p have had. While I believe most are of delusional origin I have found many that were profound and of the highest genuine nature. The fact that the person with b/p seemed to have a hightened spiritual experience. Maybe it is possible for a person with b/p to have a more significant experience. Maybe it is the way the nervous system is wired.

Hi Eric--

Don't worry no offence in the least.

If I go all day without thinking of God and then become self absorbed into a sin. Usually after the sin I feel aweful. I feel like I let God down and I feel ashamed and weak. Are you saying that you feel the opposite of this?

--well, it depends. In general, I don't think of it as sin anymore, but as movement that needed to be done. And when I'm done with it, I don't harp on about it, but often I feel in the very act of commiting a sin, I have a sense of being gazed at, or gazed through by God. This does not stop me from performing the sin, but makes me aware of the fact that I'm sinning and provides another perspective. Despite this fact, I continue doing what I do and don't feel bad about it. I feel happy that I'm not being chastised, because, I suppose, God is compassionate with me. It is God gazing through the depths of my sinfulness. Whereas previously, I would have other experiences that have called "high" to differentiate them from "low" experiences. The high experiences are like the ones that you mention--not at all so full blown, although on 3 occasions they were....but certainly they were of the non-dual type and not manufactured by my imagination, or desires. But it's not quite like I swing from one to the other on a daily basis, as you perhaps allude. Those high experiences went on for 8 years and than disappeared. With that came a loss of purpose. This year I have been plunged in darkness, confusion, fear. Plunged is an extreme verb choice. (I'm an poet, ha). But it has been difficult, to say the least. Those days are punctuated by days in which a physically felt current of light enters the crown of the head and works to rebalance--ever so slightly. Also, I was forced into solitude where I had to work out (as I mentioned) some issues with my father; and many of those issues related to his dislocation from his homeland in 1947. This caused my soul much grief as I explored the unconcious forces that animated from a place of woundedness that I'm only beginning to understand. I am connected to my father in ways that I never knew were possible before. And with that came a quiet acceptence of his inability to express things that needed to be expressed. Stories that needed to be told. This has brought me to the bottom of myself which is a gnawing absence--and yet within that raw absence is something that I had never noticed before. Faith. But I don't connect it to an image. It is just as apparent as breathing.

Also you say that you are not a Christian. IF you were raised up in any religion may I ask what it was. I thought you had mentioned something about Pakistan. Were you Muslim?

I wasn't raised in any religion. My parents are both professionals and my brothers are doctors. I was born and raised in Canada. I have studied Hinduism, and many of the experiences I had were connected within that context. And also always with Christ, strangely enough. I went to a Catholic private school.

The hells that I experience are not mood swings. I don't go back and forth on a daily basis. I awake in the morning and the pressure on the forehead makes me feel like I am still in a dream, slightly. Those days are coming to an end. I had to yank myself out of these by studying.

"I have read about spiritual experiences that people with b/p have had. While I believe most are of delusional origin I have found many that were profound and of the highest genuine nature. The fact that the person with b/p seemed to have a hightened spiritual experience. Maybe it is possible for a person with b/p to have a more significant experience. Maybe it is the way the nervous system is wired."

Yes, well, when you talk about the heart...I understand, but feel no need to support or authenticate the experience. Love is love. It is tangible felt sense of the heart opening in wonder, grace, beauty, touched by crown of the Beloved. I don't know anymore. I could be bipolar, but I doubt it. And no, your question is not offensive. I sometimes entertain madness as it helps me write.

Anyway, all I know is that I have no clear sense of a self apart from the heart. And within that heart is faith. I cannot touch faith, but it is there.

My exuberance comes only because I have been up all night and should be working on an essay. Plus I'm learning to delight in words and their sensual contours.

Kind Regards,

Asher

Asher, your story fascinates me. There is so much truth in your story. I think some people embelish their story by trying to connect everything to God. I don't feel this is the case with you.

There are many times that the experiences I have had felt completely seperate from God. Usualy when I was in a feeling of "oneness". There were times when I felt like I was watching the universe unfold like a movie. I did not fixate on God during these.

It seems that you have transcended sin and God to a whole different level. Some enlightened guru's claim that when you reach enlightenment that Karma (a form of sin) has no negative effect on you.

It also seems that you view sin as a form of energy shift or like a movement from something other than the current state you were just in. If I am understanding you right.

Also, my views of God have changed very much over the last couple of months. For example I used to pray before I ate dinner to give thanks. Now since most of the time my mind is fixated on God I feel that the prayer would be a distraction from my connection. It is almost amusing at times. It is like having a conversation with someone and writting them a note to read at the same time. It would be silly.

Do you often not think of God until you sin? I am wondering if sinning triggers a certain level of awareness of God within you. Or do you sin intentionally while already being aware of God's presence.

I find myself in a most grievous state when I know I am sinning.

Hi Eric,

Boy it's late. Your experience about watching the universe unfold like a movie is one I can relate to. This occured most intensely one night and I was drawn up into white light in dreaming; this light, it seemed imparted the wisdom of being able to witness the dream. When I awoke this state continued while going about my chores. Clearly, there was no one "home" and such a sense of laughter and joy in seeing this unfold, finally as the day came to a close, it turned into sadness and a sense that all my practices had presumed a self.

This comes back now and again, but never to this same degree as it did those few hours. They clearly made me question the self, but also seemed to suggest other insights about the need to be grounded etc.

Yes, I think my view of sin in shifting to simply the movement of energy. But there can right movement and movement that perpetuates suffering. In the latter case, I seem to feel that this movement provides a driving force to reconsider my action. However, the action sinning at times, doesn't feel wrong; it just makes me realize that I am loved despite my mutifarious faults.

For some reason, (in answer to your question) I am not in the position to think of God as I once did. I suppose my previous way was a form of avidance, and that prayer was becoming slightly self indulgent. So my current way now is not to pray, but simply to move in this world and to try to have faith that God breaks through my stubborness etc. That I can no longer grasp him, but that I have to allow him to be in his own right. This seems to be the way I am being guided. But my current state (as noted above) is far from one of transcending sin, but it seems to be driving into sin. And at the bottom of it, as I noted, there seems to be God gazing back at me. This doesn't make me guilty, on the contrary, it gives me love and acceptence, perhaps the same acceptence I needed from a father. So I do not grieve but rejoice that I'm accepted for who I am. Perhaps, some way out of sin will emerge from this. I haven't a clue.

I suppose I'm being shown the more personal aspects of God, which really enter into the human condition and effect change. I'm not sure that oneness can do this. At least, it wasn't apparent in my experience (of the opening experience) that such a mode of being could effect change and move me into the world with ease.

Have a good night,

Asher

This is a golden-thread. It's so perfect that I
fear spoiling it in any way. God is made perfect in weakness and humility and faith in the darkness...

thank you all

Asher, it appears that you are seeing God in a whole new light. Sometimes not everything is black and white. There isn't always a good or bad side.

I guess it really boils down to unhealthy and healthy. If you feel that this is leading you into a healthy relationship with God, then I am in no position to say that what you are doing is wrong.

It appears that when you have deviated from the natural flow of things a negative resistance is felt. But when you allow the natural flow (even though sin is a result) of things you feel closer to God. A very complex relationship indeed.

One's natural response to your story is that you are testing God's grace. Then again, I am not at the experience level that you are. So I feel that I would be guitly of judgement if I were to respond that way. Very perplexing indeed.

Your situation really test my standard view of things. It stretches fundamentalist beliefs to their limits. I can see how maybe you could have drawn negative responses from others. Your situation requires a thinking "outside of the box" type of approach.

A person's response to indulgence of sin would normally be a negative one. I am confused as to how to approach this.

Afternoon, Eric--

You wrote:

"It appears that when you have deviated from the natural flow of things a negative resistance is felt. But when you allow the natural flow (even though sin is a result) of things you feel closer to God. A very complex relationship indeed."

I would be cautious to say that this is the case. I suppose that there is something called conscience, which is not so much a "little voice" as much as it is some part of the being where God makes Himself present in (as in "at the bottom of it, God gazes back at me"). This seems to happen when I am going off course.
.

If the mind mediates between binaries such as good/evil, one never drives into the either of them. This seemed to be the case with myself, where a cleft between high experiences and human could not be bridged, as noted. For myself, the bridge comes only through entering darkness...but I'm not sure its anything one would want to try to do. Rather it is "done" and I no longer have the same fear of confusion, madness, insecurity, as I did before. I feel stregthened. I suppose I am living them out. Virtue it seems to me, has become something other than a rule of conduct (I followed certain rules for 8 years). Sin has become a driving force into itself. (sorry for the leaps in thought...) It is simply wrongly directed energy. God, in His graciousness, makes me most aware of himself when I am deviating from Him. I suppose this is conscience, but not as in the "voice of conscience." For myself, I have felt the need to live some of this sin out. To see what it is. And to move on. I don't feel guilty, as much as I feel tired of sin. It exhausts itself out.

One last clarification before I leave to study for exams etc.

I wanted to clarify "God gazes back at me"

B/c it is quite easy to mistake this for the a self gazing back at a self. By God, I mean another dimesion of being seemingly apart from the sensory apparatus mediates through the senses to make me aware of It. This makes me reconsider my actions, but not in a way where I feel I will be chastised. But in the most loving way. This is the only way (presumeably) that I can learn. I would never accept a chastising God--although there must be this quality in God--I, personally, cannot relate to such a God. And such a God would make me rebel, rather than truly reforming me, in this most quiet and gentle way.

Have a good Easter.

Asher

Thank you mysticalmichael9. Was that Corinthians??

Asher, I remember within a deep experience it was hard to tell where the "self" ended and God began. So I do understand what you mean by self looking back at self.

For I feel I have experienced self looking back a self. At these moments I feel that I had exposed the observer. I was aware of my higher awareness.

The experience continues:

I was taking a walk outside earlier. When I realized my inner self-awareness. I was walking as I would do normally and I started to remember myself.

Nothing more or less unusual than it had been before. It starts with an awareness of the awareness then the observer becomes the focus.

Once the observer is the focus he/it/whatever I "am" remembers that it is he/it/whatever having the experience not I.

What I mean by not I. I mean not Eric. The Eric who was raised and conditioned to label everything and become it's own ego-self. But more the true essence of the self the eternal self having a human experience. The personality of Eric dies for the time being.

It starts by some sort of duality being eroded. There is no self separate from what is being experienced. First the self realizes that it is existent. Then the self realizes that it is not seperate from the experience. Then only the experience remains.

There was no love/hate/time/delusion etc. Only the moment.

It is intersting to wonder where the observer is when I am not aware of it. Also during these awakening's there appears to be an increase of sensory input or more or less that the sensory imput is interpreted different in the brain.

I could almost swear at times that I develop 360 degree vision. Not so much true vision as having an awareness of everything in a 360 degree area. It is hard to distinguish the difference though.


I would like to note the experience was not that pleasurable. I feel a bit insignificant now. There was no feelings of love or of Kundalini or anything even God.

Eric, I understand what you're describing above, but I wonder why you would call it the "eternal self having a human experience"? Was there something in the experience that suggested this interpretation, or is that just how you understand it in retrospect?

I think what you're sharing above can be attributed to the passive/non-refelctive/observational aspect of the human spirit itself. The human spirit is both observational and intentional, the two usually working in a dynamic and integrated manner to give us a sense of being both conscious and purposeful. One can "tune in," as it were, to the passive aspect, and I think that's exactly what Eastern meditative approaches teach one to do. When one awakens thus to awareness per se, or awareness of awareness, then there is diminishment of the intentional aspect of spirit and all that entails -- identity, purpose, meaning, etc. There is only the present moment perceived non-reflectively / non-intentionally, and with this comes an accompanying loss of a sense of separation from all things. A very good experience, to be sure, but not-God and not eternal, imo, but the timeless, immortal human spirit awake to itself.

What say?

---

I see you figured out the Avatar option.

quote:

I think what you're sharing above can be attributed to the passive/non-refelctive/observational aspect of the human spirit itself. The human spirit is both observational and intentional, the two usually working in a dynamic and integrated manner to give us a sense of being both conscious and purposeful. One can "tune in," as it were, to the passive aspect, and I think that's exactly what Eastern meditative approaches teach one to do. When one awakens thus to awareness per se, or awareness of awareness, then there is diminishment of the intentional aspect of spirit and all that entails -- identity, purpose, meaning, etc. There is only the present moment perceived non-reflectively / non-intentionally, and with this comes an accompanying loss of a sense of separation from all things. A very good experience, to be sure, but not-God and not eternal, imo, but the timeless, immortal human spirit awake to itself.

I found that to be highly instructive and another great example of the famed St. Romain summation. (Making the complex simple.) I sometimes wonder if we aren't sometimes "chased" out of our intentional aspects by circumstances (various traumas) and then, compensating for this, we overuse our reflective/observational aspect and/or we try to put our reflective/observational aspect in the service of the needs of the intentional. The result would be a vivid, willful imagination and awareness (hyper awareness perhaps) and a loud internal dialog. I wonder if some of us, instead of cultivating the meditative, need to find an analogous way to nurture the intentional aspects of ourselves (perhaps WC's method of playing with children's blocks is one such technique). This is no doubt off-topic, but perhaps your opinion, if you deem this idea worthy of one, could be posted in the appropriate thread.

I know, for one, that my mind, my reflective aspect, even for an introvert, is overused. It's sometimes red hot! That may be one reason that I shy away from meditation. That's perhaps the last thing I need. Others (perhaps our friend, Eric) have lived a more kinetic, active life of comparatively less reflection and comparatively more action and thus this profound appreciation that we see (and I do love seeing this) for these newly-awakened "in the moment" powers, whether God-given or otherwise.

Gee, thanks for the nice compliment, Brad.

See http://www.pmcguire.demon.co.u...alconsciousness.html for a good schematic on consciousness. That black "Meta" level indicates that we can step back from other operational levels even to the point of attending to the dynamics of perception itself.

- - -

Here is another good schematic.

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Then there's this one, which shows the "I am" awareness as the pinnacle of the human spirit -- awareness / observation itself.

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Then run (don't walk) to get a copy of this book by Daniel Helminiak. Chapter Four on "The Priority of Non-reflecting Consciousness" is worth the price of the book.

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Our thread on the teachings of Ken Wilber has much about all this. Mistaking this aspect of consciousness for God is a MAJOR mistake made by wilber and Easterners. I'm hoping Eric won't make it as well.

Hi, Phil.

What I mean by my eternal soul having a human experience is something that resonated with me from my first experience. Some part of me feels that it always was and always will be.

The body will die but that part of me that I feel is "eternal" will go on to bigger or better things.

There is a feeling of eternal instead of immortal. Immortal suggesting from birth into infinity and eternal suggesting always was and always will be. This is just a feeling I have.

One experience I can almost put my finger on a pre-birth memory. There was something there but I just couldn't see it clearly. Not enough to draw a truthful conclusion. I know how the Bible stands on this subject. SO I usually will consult scripture first. I will accept scripture over the experience at all times.

Maybe somehow I have some Mormon subject material I have read bleeding over from my subconscious. You may be right about immortal and not eternal.

But I still can't help but feel that a part of me is,was, and always will be. In some form or another. I feel like my immortal/eternal self puts on this(Eric suit)and has a human experience. Eric is just a temporary personality that the real-self is experiencing. Eric will die and be burried but the real-self will continue forever.

It is so cool that you understand what I mean by awareness of the awareness. 99% of the people I try to explain that to just don't get it. It seems so simple for me. Yet trying to explain that to another just can't be done.

yes, I got the avatar. I believe because I was upgraded to member.

Hey, Brad.

When I first started having these experiences there was an extreme quieting of the mind. When the mind is quiet only the moment is the point of focus. I believe that is the start for one to experience something such as this. Very simple indeed.

But now, my mind does not have to be as quiet as it used to. I will see thoughts and ideas during the experience but they appear boring and I feel unattached to them.

When I first started having these experiences there was an extreme quieting of the mind. When the mind is quiet only the moment is the point of focus. I believe that is the start for one to experience something such as this. Very simple indeed.

I�ve been experiencing a preference for quiet over, say, the last four or five years, Eric. That seems like a good thing to me. I think part of it is a desire for peace and the other is a realization of the angst I was causing by trying to drown out the internal conflicts. I look around at people now who are doing that and I just cringe.

But with the quiet comes the increased volume (relatively speaking) of noise and internal dialogue inside one�s head. You start to run into the thoughts and feelings that you were avoiding before. When those thoughts and feelings seem insoluble one is tempted to once again try to escape them. We could drown them out with noise, succor them with eating, numb them with drugs or alcohol, or anesthetize them with sex or some other �adrenaline� activity. That would be a horrible thing to do, but almost equally horrible is staying with the uncertainty, with the unresolved �stuff� that one has collected through a lifetime.

As to whether or not my mind is quiet; sometimes it is, sometimes it isn�t. I think it�s getting better, though.

Brad, you are so right. You cannot completely silence the mind. There is always some form of chatter or another. The key is to free yourself from attachment of the chatter.

People think that they are their thoughts/dreams/ideas/desires but this is a delusion of the mind.

Just, let the chatter be what it is, chatter. Let if flow it's natural course. Ignore it and let it go where it wants to go. Eventially you will see beyond the chatter. The key I have found is awareness of the awareness. If you realize that you are an entity and that you are existing than that is the start of awareness of the awareness.

Question yourself constantly. Ask yourself, "who am I?". Over and over. Within time the question will begin to have an answer. The the true-self will remember itself and you will awaken.

Try to figure out just who exactly it is peering out through those eyes out into reality.

I do however find no connection to Kundalini in these moments. It is just a shift of awareness. I am unsure how Kundalini plays a part in it all. One appears of the spirit and the other just a different way of looking at things (true perception).

You sound like you are really close, Brad. You will laugh when you realize how silly everything appears. For, your whole life you have had this perception the whole time. You only failed to recognize it. At least I did.