Dear friends,

A somehow urgent message here!
I am 50 years old now and I have traveled a long spiritual journey: Western philosophy, Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, Charismatic movement, Zen Buddhism, Roman Catholicism.

Since 1996, after a divorce in 1994, I am wrestling permanently with a chronic, very painful tension pain in my chest (heart chakra) and solar plexus (an emotional or mental blockade) with breathing problems. I have tried every possible therapy, regular (psychiatrists, medication...) and alternative (yoga, rebirthing, reiki, meditation, homeopathy, Bach flowers, reflexology, bio-energetics, emotional body work, breath therapy...) without finding any relief.

I studied Greek and Latin and have read hundreds of books on philosophy, theology, spirituality, (contemplative) psychology, literature and arts in general since I was about 20 years old. In fact, I have grown out now of most of my question I had before or, Rilke in mind, I try to live out these questions, more than to wait for clear-cut answers to the many paradoxes in life in general and in the spiritual life in particular.

There is of course a lot I have to say here, but I'll try to be short. I have always been searching (far too rationally) in books for answers to who I am, who God is, what life is all about. I think this urgent, feverish searching stems from hypersensitivity, anxiety and inferiority feelings dating from my youth. It is a strange thing that I don't remember anything of my youth. But I cannot recall what has happened. A sister of the Catholic Charismatic movement once received an image (from God?) of a foetus, shrunk by fear. I heard that my mother was not married when she was pregnant of me and that she experienced some fear and shame at the time. My parents are after all good and friendly people, but I have developed for some reason a kind of fear of my father (father wound), who was a hard season worker in France (and was for long times away from house) and could react very impulsively and rather unpredictably (this is is a kind of mirror for myself). I guess he has never affimed me in my masculinity. So I feel I miss the �wild� energy of a man (realism, responsability, adventure, �), although I have a strong and healthy body. There is something that restrains me and I have always rather been the 'decent boy', who had to be still when we went out. My mother has been a full-time hair dresser and I was raised by my paternal grandmother, who lived with us and with her sister (my aunt) spoiled me quite a lot!
At 11 years I seem to have been very nervous and restless. I had nervous tics in my face and was a stammerer. At that time I went to a boarding school, where I was confronted with 2 paedophile brothers ('of love'!).

I feel that somehow I have cut off my feelings and emotions and created false selves like the perfectionist, the moralist, the artist/hermit, the scaredy-cat, the clown, the critical thinker and so forth...The tension in the solar plexus (abdomen) and heart chakra creates a sharp division line between my head (full as the cup of tea in the short Zen story) and my emotions (hara). I have learned to think very fastly (I notice this, working with my colleagues) and am very good in summarizing texts and writing. There is however always some kind of perfectionism in all this. I am constantly creating defence mechanisms of primary defence, fear, false hope (f.e. my work before as a plasteree in order to get the attention and praise of my father!) , false power or denial of needs (see: Past reality integration: http://www.pastrealityintegration.nl/pri_en/index.htm

I have always had psycho-somatic problems (in the army in Germany in 1979, in Ireland in 1980...)and I have to pay attention with alcohol (an inherited problem). I don't drink much anymore, but when I start drinking I cannot stop it...

The main question is that I have to try now to slow down and to descend from my head into my heart, as we all know from the desert fathers and the fathers of the Orthodox Church, practicing the Jesus Prayer.

I have searched far too much for handholds, clear answers, systems, rules and so forth... because I struggled and still struggle with inner �demons� of fear (for life, the judgement?), melancholy, nervosity, restlessness, anger, sadness, irritation, judging people, perfectionism, compulsive behaviour, control coercion, a lack of taking responsability and realism, 'contemptus mundi', shame and guilt, lack of joy. I call it the �syndrome of Saul� (see for this in: http://www.amazon.com/Father-H...cClung/dp/0890814910 in the Bible.

I admit also I have probably been rather fundamentalistic and fanatical before out of a concern about (biblical) truth but I gradually opened myself to other traditions and belief systems and I learned a lot from so-called Christian mysticism, gnosticism, esotericism, hermeticism, but also from Buddhism. My ex-wife left me two images, describing myself, that are very to the point, I guess: (1) a bottomless barrel, (2) stepping on the gas without getting anywhere, (3)a bulldozer who throws everything behind him and let the others pick up the pieces ...

Because of all my suffering and pain, I have of course been looking for answers to this enduring mystery in order to know how to cope with it:

1. Most orthodox, devotional or evangelical Christians give the impression that everything is possible for him who has faith in God and His' Word. Moreover, this is something that is also written in the Bible. Certain prominent Pentecostals (f.e. Derek Prince, after all a great man of God!), go as far as to say that by proclaiming God's words (�Words have power�, as they also say in New Age!) like 'and with His' stripes we are healed' (Is. 53;5), we eventually (as D. Prince himself experienced) get healed. But we have to ask with faith (James)! So there is something as growth possible in faith... In the USA there is a whole movement of 'Name it and clame it', resulting from earlier so-called American gospels (think of N.V. Peale). The thought behind it is: since Christ has risen from death, we Christians, baptized in Christ, share in His' resurrection power. Perverted, this may lead to a 'health and wealth' gospel, which is not Christian at all! It is more like magic! Is this typically American? I have the impression that �suffering� is a thing that is seriously suppressed in this land of 'hope and glory'? Europeans (and especially f.e. Russians) know much better by bitter experience what suffering is all about. Is this the reason that there are institutes such as Esalen, the cradle of an optimistic, humanistic and transpersonal psychology, which in some way has become a sort of religion (building on W. James, CG Jung a.o.). (see the excellent book by P. Vitz: http://www.amazon.com/Psycholo...orship/dp/0802807259
But how many times I have hoped myself that through proclaiming, confessing, speaking out the words (rhema) of God in the Bible, the Word (logos), I would get better!
In fact, Paul speaks of 'Putting on the armor of God' (Eph.6;11-17) to �fight the good fight�. But I have always asked myself: how to understand this? What did the desert fathers and mothers, those great psychologists avant-la-lettre and strong people of faith, actually do in front of their inner struggles, sufferings, trials, demons? Did they fight in the name of Christ or did they let go, accept and surrender? And what is the difference between these 3? How to cope with emotional, psychological, physical problems? We know that by resisting something, the very thing we struggle with tends to grow.Where is the boundary line between sins (that have to be forgiven), wounds (that have to be healed), bonds (that have to be broken) and 'hounds'(that have to be be cast out? In Deuteronium the Israelites have the choice between life and dead, but I have always wondered myself how little this free choice-free will actually is! What about people in wars, concentration camps, handicapped people and so forth... (see Eli Wiesel)

2. Another 'strategy' therefore consists in learning to accept anything that is happening. I am thinking of most of the saints (see John of the Cross on necessary dark nights that purify and heal,http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.html Alphonsus de Liguori http://www.ccel.org/ccel/alphonsus/uniformity.html
De Caussade: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/decaussade/abandonment.html
and many others!

As in Buddhism: not to reject anything, not to get attached to anything, not to judge, God's Will and Provindence is actually here and now, in the present moment (Tolle?).In the present eternity touches time! But this not as a kind of Sto�cism, rather with compassion and warmth as you would rock gently a wounded child. But how many times I have tried in meditation to sit quietly with this pain, observing my breath and saying my 'Jesus'-word, without finding any relief! I have spoken about �rehabilitation� before on another thread. Many Christians, even great saints, have been accused of dolorism (Th�r�se of Lisieux, Elisabeth of the Trinity, Sister Faustina, Marthe Robin, Padre Pio...), because they 'enjoyed' suffering for the Lord's sake as a sort of rehabilitation (French: r�paration) to the righteousness of God, that is stained and dishonoured by sin and as a kind of vicarious suffering with the Lord (see also Simone Weil, Etty Hillesum...). I think this is a very deep and profound question, which can not easily be neglected (see the text at the end).

3. In the first case, God is the Allmighty, the Resurrected, the Living Wounded Healer, and when our faith is strong enough we get healed. All depends on our identification with Christ (through grace!) in His' resurrection power. But when we don't get healed, the danger of feeling guilty, unfaithful etc... is obvious, which in it's turn causes even more pain. So this is not a very loving thing after all.

4. In the second case, Christianity resembles (but is of course not the same as) Buddhism and all other spiritual traditions and common sense in general. What lies at the background of this point of seeing things is the knowledge of the contingency, vulnerability, mortality, transitoriness of everything in this world. Christ, in this case, is before all a Wounded Healer, God is a humble God! Through the growth of science, we postmodern people speak of second reasons and many times it is difficult to keep an overview and grant honour to the first reason (God). We also know that Christ had to go through a radical 'k�nosis', a self-emptying, a laying down of His' Godly nature to become one with us (except in sin) and even to descend into hell: the (universal) dark night of the soul...

Is this 'k�nosis' (purification) after all not the path every person (Christian) has to go as a �via negativa�? Is it then not more appropriate to learn to live in a very humble way from the grace of little flashes of light now and then in the midst of a life full of questions, problems, mysteries, pain and so forth...?

Or is there more and can we really live out the other side in this life, i.o.w. 'Are we really more than conquerors through Him...' (Paul)and so yes, how to get there? New Agers for that matter seem (?) to get what they want, hmm...

Is there ultimately only one choice: whether all or nothing? Is the God of the Bible not the Wholly Other, Transcendent God whose ways are not our ways? We are so afraid that this 'nada' (John of the Cross) is in fact 'nothing' at all and represents 'nothing', that it is all illusory..., but our daily consciousness is much more illusionary than we think it is!

But HS seems to point at something else than on the one hand immediate satisfaction or an answer to all our prayers and questions and on the other hand ascetic withdrawal from all earthly pleasure and delight. Only, how to live with this paradox, with this biblical earthly dynamics (see Bonhoeffer) on the one hand and all our intense heavenly longing for love, peace, justice, freedom, joy etc... on the other hand. What about all the promises God has made in the Bible of an abundant life of joy? Nietzsche said that he would consider becoming a Christian when Christians were not as earnest and joyless... I think he has certainly a point!

There is in me such a desire to live fully, to break through (self-imposed?) boundaries and explore new territories, new life (the �conversio morum� of St. Benedict). But this asks for letting go of reliable, safe perspectives and costums (and pain).This asks for much silence, listening, attention, patience...

On the other hand, this fear, this pain isolates me a great deal and makes me look for security, for God as a Rock (the �stabilitas� of St. Benedict). I have to learn to listen (the �osculta� of St. Benedict) to the voice of God, to my body, to my feelings, to my thoughts, to my fellow-men, to nature and to all things� where God is hidden! But I feel so vulnerable!

There is as Gr�n pointed out a 'spirituality from above' (ideals, doctrines, laws, rules, morals,...) and a 'spirituality from below' (body, emotions, desires, intuition, wounds...).
Transcendent God and immanent God?
Apophatic and kataphatic approach?

I like the spirituality of father David Steindl Rast, again a Benedictine monk, on �gratefulness�. But how to be grateful in the midst of long lasting pain, loneliness, the feeling of dying of self, ego (which is good after all!)?

Conclusion: there is a fundamental polarity between 'allocentricity' and 'autocentricity'. How to know when you have to wait and when you have to act? When you have to speak and when you have to be silent?

The allocentric attitude takes a lot of courage, the courage of Christ the Lion. And a basic trust, which I seem to lack, is a condition for it, in other words �Christ the Lamb�!

The autocentricity can be perverted into a secundary autocentric attitude, which limits, restricts and reinforces a certain hostility or jealousy towards the 'world' (�contemptus mundi�).

I have to learn to accept that I am loved, whatever the circumstances are and whatever I am or how I feel! I have stayed alone since my wife left me in 1994. I wished to be �pious� and trusting the Lord. I somehow played the role of the �heremit�, which is not my vocation after all! I adore women, I am such a romantic and at the same time, I feel some fear or uncertainty in their presence or I believe they cannot comprehend my complexity.

Is it good to meditate (centering prayer or another method)? Do I better stay with word prayer in a more devotional way? Or do I need more psychological counseling?

The Indian S. Painadath, S.J. wrote a book 'Der Geist reisst Mauern nieder'.
In general, I can agree with what he is saying from the perspective of the interreligious dialogue. R. Panikkar has said similar things in 'Christophany'...
The point seems to be the following:

There seems to be a difference between what I would call the 'religion about Jesus' and the 'religion of Jesus'.

The first implies: a prophetic dimension (emphasis on ethics, rules, law,...),'theology' (dogma's, orthodoxy...), prayer to Someone out there, devotion, Jesus as an object of adoration, the centrality of the cross, an eternal existential distance between God and man through sin, exclusivism, uniqueness of Christ, transcendence of God, the importance of the Word and obedience, apologetics, patriarchal-masculine ...

The second implies: a mystic dimension (emphasis on inner experience and initiation, symbolic consciousness), 'theosophy' , meditation (essential is the Consciousness of Jesus: I and the Father are one, I am who I am...), Jesus as subject of a spiritual experience (pan-an-theism???), the centrality of resurrection, an ontological unity between God and man (Paul: 'In Him we live...'), inclusivism, opennes to other traditions, transcendence and immanence of God, the importance of the Holy Spirit (pneumatic) and Sophia, God as the deepest Self, the ground of being, ..., inner initiation and transformation, dialogue, matriarchal-feminine...

A very interesting discussion on all this is of course: http://shalomplace.com/res/index.html (the �Dialogue between Jim Marion en Philippe St.Romain�) and the websites: http://www.innerexplorations.com/, http://www.monasticdialog.com/, http://www.gratefulness.org/, http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/, http://www.cutsinger.net/, http://www.worldwisdom.com/Public/index.asp, http://www.sophiaperennis.com/, http://www.dur.ac.uk/theology.religion/

On the other hand, I have problems with the so-called 'perennial philosophy' and 'Sophia Perennis' movement (H. Smith, R.Panikkar, W. Teasdale, M. Fox and many many others within the Christian Church).

Another point I wish to make is about the place of (psycho)therapy/psychology versus Christian faith.I have problems as a Christian with many therapies, such as Jungian therapy (Jung was after all a gnostic, even an occultist, which doesn't mean he has not said true things about the unconscious and so forth...), Past Reality Integration (PRI, Ingeborg Bosch), Transpersonal psychology ... I feel blocked!

I know of Christians, practicing Jungian therapy (Jean Monbourqette in the shadow, forgiveness... http://www.allbookstores.com/a..._Monbourquette.html, Thomas Moore (Christian?) http://www.careofthesoul.net/...), but also Christian therapists/priests, departing from a purely biblical (charismatic) point of view (Simone Pacot, Leanne Payne,S. Bodishbaugh, Nelly Astelli, Francis McNutt...).

A book which made me think a lot about the relativity and self-centeredness of modern therapies is the above-called: http://www.amazon.com/Psycholo...rship/dp/0802807259! What did the desert fathers and Christians afterwards before there was any psychology/therapy do with their wounds???

However: Please look at PRI. I met one man who was seriously addicted to hero�ne, but was healed by practicing PRI!
So I wish to be faithful to Christ in all aspects of my life and I feel torn between accepting what is happening (so difficult!)/trusting God and the need for therapy, which mostly has different points of view from Christianity. You understand my problem? Is this a sort of resistance against a sound therapy? Can spiritual counseling with a priest be helpful? Is this a dark night I have to accept? I don't know! I do know however I have to forgive my father because of my father wound. But this is also a process I have to go with the help of the Holy Spirit. I have tried some cranio-sacral therapy. Maybe I have to go on with it?
But there is so much!!!

I close with the sayings of Jesus to the Indian Christian convert Sadhu Sundar Singh in 'At the Feet of the Master':

'Suffering is an extinguisher of God's wrath and an obtainer of His' favour. It lessens delight and increases grace. Suffering is the surest way, the nearest way, the shortest way. Suffering is affection's rod, a paternal blow given to my elect. Patience in suffering is a living sacrifice, a sweet smell of balsam before my divine face, it is an appealing wonder before the entire host of heaven. Patience in suffering is superior to raising the deads or the performing of other miracles. Without labor there is no rest and without fighting there is no victory.'

Where is the cross of Christ in all movements of positive thinking, self-realization, perennialism, gnosticism, hermeticism, metaphysics and so forth and so forth�? That is my main question!

Summarized: on suffering:
1. God doesn't want us to be sick, suffering
2. Sometimes he sends or allows tribulations (Job) for (1) His' own glory, (2) the purification of man (3) the salvation of other souls... (?)

How to deal with it? Acceptance and surrender, rehabilitation (many saints) versus struggle, proclamation (see Pentecostals), identification with the risen Christ...

I am convinced it is all about finding (or being found by) the God within, who is Unconditional Love. It is all about learning to live with awareness, gratefulness, openness in the present, here and now (Blake). Only how to get to this source, this well, this pearl of great price within ourselves? There are of course different approaches and maybe I don�t know yet what my own path really is. Sometimes I pray the rosary, other times I sit quietly with a word, still other times I go for a walk or try to help someone�

Two years ago, I went with a woman, who in the meantime has become a girl friend, to Banneux, a Marian pilgrim place here in Belgium, and so I came across the devotional movement (see also in the 12th, 13th and 14th century!), which I first found too sweety, too devotional, too softy but which I gradually came to appreciate because of the power of the rosary, the idea of vicarious suffering and 'r�paration' (rehabilitation to the Father), the simplicity in it's ranks ('Blessed are the poor of spirit'???) and so forth...

At the same time, some people (a.o. the Benedictine monk Anselm Gr�n) urge me to pay attention to my psychology/emotional life and this pain and stay with it to see the real message of my soul behind it. Sometimes I find some rest in breathing exercices and one word prayer. I try to accept the pain as a 'wounded child' and stay as quiet as possible after reading so many books all these years. I admit I have become addicted to books and learning (spiritual) things, but there isn� t any end at reading books as the Bible says. �Spiritual materialism' (Trungpa) or 'spiritual bypassing' is a pitfall! Is it possible that through prayer and meditation (contemplation) alone is enough or is there any need for therapy with all this pain and unresolved emotions?

PAX!

Greetings,
Fred Delameilleure
Graaf de Smet de Naeyerlaan 76
Ostend (Belgium)
Tel. 059/333575
e-mail: freddy.delameilleure@wvg.vlaanderen.be

Thank you, Freddy, for so generously sharing your story. What stands out for me is the depth and range of your search, and the mystery of suffering.

You noted:

quote:

Summarized: on suffering:
1. God doesn't want us to be sick, suffering
2. Sometimes he sends or allows tribulations (Job) for (1) His' own glory, (2) the purification of man (3) the salvation of other souls... (?)

How to deal with it? Acceptance and surrender, rehabilitation (many saints) versus struggle, proclamation (see Pentecostals), identification with the risen Christ...

I can go along with numbers 1 and 2, although you might add to #2 that suffering is a consequence of Original Sin and so is not caused or sent by God. Even to say that God "allows" it is not quite right, as what God does is leaves us to the consequences of our actions and those of others. For God to do otherwise would entail the violation of human freedom, which God seems ill-disposed to do.

In the "how do deal with it," what about "identification with the suffering, crucified Christ?" This is the basis for Paul's "nothing can separate us from the love of God poured out in Jesus Christ." (Rm. 8). Not even suffering! There He is; with us in our suffering. That love, peace and even joy can be known through our union with the suffering Christ is an amazing gift made possible by Christ. This is why so many Saints actually sought out suffering, and why Christ refused to cure Paul of the "thorn in his flesh."

So long as we are saying, "I'll be OK when I can be rid of this suffering," we will continue to suffer spiritual, mental and emotional disquietude. If we accept that God is with us, right now, just as we are, something changes. Of course, to do so we must allow our faith to fully rest in Christ, who said, "Come to me all ye who labor and are weary, and I will give you rest."

See http://shalomplace.com/view/crucifixion.html for a resource on this site; note the free version for immediate viewing. The last chapter on the "Way of the Cross" seems relevant to this discussion.

Peace. Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Freddy:
[qb] Is it possible that through prayer and meditation (contemplation) alone is enough or is there any need for therapy with all this pain and unresolved emotions? [/qb]

Hi, Freddy,

It seems to me that you are "spiritualizing" psychological pain. A few years back I had an ear infection. What did I do? I went to a doctor! It's the same with these conditions you describe. The obvious answer is to go to a psychotherapist. But for some reason, you keep on rejecting the obvious answer.

Derek.

Dear Freddy,

I'm with Phil on saying thank you for sharing your story. You've had quite a unique journey through much suffering! I can relate to your crying out about how much of our emotional suffering / mental torment is curable vs. how much do we accept with dignity as our cross.

In my experience, the more whole I become psychologically, the more authentically and happily I can worship God and serve others. For this reason, I'm a "fan" of insight-oriented psychotherapy, especially psychoanalysis which is the only form of treatment I know that handles unconscious resistance and sticky defenses of the most brilliant and convuluted minds.

One indication of whether therapy is called for (other than being miserable) is if others who are close to you seem to suggest that you have problems in relating to them. Often, other people see our character problems more readily than we see our own.

Also, I'm a "fan" of Christian Healing Ministries (Francis and Judith MacNut) for deep healing of many psychic/spiritual wounds. You mentioned wounds beginning as early as in the womb. I think this might be a good place to start for you if you've not already received this kind of ministry.

Christ's peace be with you,
Shasha

Hi Freddy,
I can relate to your experience of chronic pain (including trying various methods to heal them) and also having many questions on the topic of suffering. With me the tension is/was in the back/shoulders (it has been much better since last winter). What has helped me a lot is EFT (Emotional Freedom Techniques) - releasing emotions, resistances, unforgiveness, illusory perceptions etc. via tapping of acupuncture points. I need a routine of "daily energetic hygiene" for my wellfare.

I did some years of primary therapy many years ago (and that sure helped then), but the psycho-energetic methods are much more effective than purely psychotherapeutic approaches. I think in the long run they will replace them to a big extent.

I�ve also had to deal with issues stemming from pre-verbal times, mainly birth, also pregnancy, and some I don�t even know where these memories are from (not from my life, it seems).

Have you heard of hagiotherapy by Dr. Tomislav Ivancic? It is a way of spiritual healing from a catholic viewpoint, different from charismatic/pentecostal ways. It�s done with a personal therapist, either clergy/friars/sisters or lay-people, and offered for free.
Most of the literature on the net seem to be in croatian or german, but there are also therapists in Belgium.
Can you read german? - Wikipedia: Hagiotherapie

Regarding the question of suffering I have had similar questions. The following is only my present personal look at it, no claim for truth here.

Seeing it from an energetic view-point (which is my main one) physical and emotional pain are just energetic blockages. (That takes me out of any moral judgement (I tend to devaluating myself for being ill)). From that logically the aim is releasing these blockages, surrendering them to God.
I see it as a "trust God and continue to row to shore"-approach. I can/have to do the footwork to stop blocking God�s grace out.

There is no contradiction between accepting/surrendering pain and healing! Suffering has got to do with resistance and ego. (As they say: Pain is obligatory, suffering is optional.) Real acceptance tends to have a healing effect. That�s my experience.

I have also wondered about the big value which is given to suffering e.g. by some mystics. And I�ve got some of this ideology inside me, too. But I suspect that in my case it has got to do with feelings of not deserving any better, fear of what happens when I am happy, not wanting to face issues etc. that make these ideas attractive to me... - not really a healthy thing.

Maybe there is some spiritual value in suffering for some people, I don�t know. For myself, I have the impression the main value in it is that it makes me look for ways out of it, to release it, to surrender it, to transcend it. It is a motor of development. A sign-post, not an aim.

Another value I see in learning compassion with others who have problems, too.

Irene

Very good feedback, Shasha, Derek and Irene.

Freddy, what are you hearing that you find helpful?

shalom freddy, i tried to respond to your letter as i read it. i agree with the others, especially "irene" in that to trust GOD is the true path.i too have searched feverishly for God and answers to why we are here ect.i, however, do remember much of my traumatic childhood, starting at about age 32( after having almost died during the birth of my last child) i went thru a three year depression and was flooded with all the traumatic memories and i believe i was grieving the loss of a "normal" childhood.( whatever THAT is. there is no such thing as perfect parents and finding forgiveness for their own imperfectness as my parents was DEFINITLY part of my healing)i too am "addicted"as you say to reading about all forms of spirituality, but i have come to the thought now, that to simplify all thought and break it down to "GOD IS LOVE" is the true path to the wisdom of THE HOLY SPIRIT.i must tell you, however, that i have recieved healing for myself and others, by repeating certain bible scriptures( meditating on them whenever i would be aware of my pain or fear)my favorite of these( because it covers SO MUCH)is found in 2TIMOTHY:1;7;" for God has not given me the spirit of fear, but of LOVE POWER, and SOUND MIND."i like the AMPLIFIED BIBLES version.in response to quest.#3; i believe that to "fight the good fight" IS the same as surrenderring to God.this is perhaps THE most difficult thing for us on this earth.i truly believe that Gods Truth is so simple and plain that we have trouble seeing it. Jesus tried to tell us that we needed to become like little children in order to enter into the kingdom of God.we often believe more in our ability to THINK than to LOVE. yes, i believe there are many "demons" both of the spirit world and of our own self, but we need not fear them.they too have a purpose in our life.( to teach us about Gods power)our free will gives us the choice to accept Gods will in our lives or not. our INTENTION( FREE WILL) is our connection to Gods LOVE and PROTECTION.all we have to do is SURRENDER ourselves to His care.this is TRUSTING GOD. this is one of THE hardest things to do.if we can do this and do it on a DEEP level( all the way down to our subconscious)then God will teach us the 'reason' for our pain and when we learn the lesson we can then release the pain.the danger for us as we embark on this path is that we get sidetracked in our false self. our false self helps us to hold onto the pain as we get self pity, of for many reasons. if we were not taught how to let go of negative feelings and how to basically, love ourselves,then sometimes i am sure God will lead us to get some psychotherapy and such for us.however, the bottom line is that to TRUST GOD in ALL things is difficult, but can be learned.( ask and ye shall recieve...simple truth)i have a sense that you have not yet reached the truth God is trying to reveal to you. i am humbly suggesting that you may not have 'let go and let God' yet on a deep enough level to stop all the other noise going on in your head( and God knows there is much!)but as you close( question #4)you speak of a slf emptying of Christ, and you ask if this is perhaps our PATH. i would answer with a loud, YEAH!!!that is IT!!!yes, our daily consciousness IS illusory, and the illusion is made up of our 'ego' which may also be defined by our daily consciousness.in other words it is our daily ( even moment to moment) struggle in this life to discern what is brought on by our "false self",(i.e.;ego) and what is GOD REVELATION and TRUTH for us.my sense of you, like myself, would greatly benefit from a focus( meditation) on trying to break things down( as if peeling an onion)into the simpler TRUTHS. i believe our intellect is a gift, but can also become a danger, and as the Desert Fathers and many Saints have discovered, meditating on Gods Love( in the Sacred Moment)can let God reveal His Truth to us. when you say " this fear, this pain isolates me a great deal and makes me look for God as a rock" , this tells me that perhaps your pain IS your fear and it is located in your chest, ( your heart area) and perhaps you are allowing it to take the place of your fathers love. you can take that pain and replace it with your REAL FATHER in heaven, who wants to reach you and heal you with His LOVE.HE is pouring it out on you constantly, all you have to do is ( intentionally, and on a deep level, through meditation)choose it!remember to " be still and KNOW that HE is GOD"when you say that you have to listen to " the voice of God, to my body, to my feelings, to my thoughts, to my fellow man, to nature and to all things" i feel like you are being WAY too hard on yourself. all you really need to do is intend to listen to God. ( intention is exercising our free will. our intention for things id Gods divine power working in us)God, of course can be found in nature( one of my favorite creations of His) and others, but if we simply,TRUST GOD, He will lead us( to psychotherapy perhaps, or sometimes directly to His healing Grace)you seem concerned about death also. i know that it stands as one of our greatest fears. again, if we can find a way to make peace with our death( truly there is no death in Christ)then THAT will go a long way to relieve our pain on this earth.forgive me if i am preaching to you, i am almost finished, and my intention is to help you with your suffering. i want to close by saying that i believe in miracles because i have experienced them and have seen them with my own eyes.( i am TRULY a skeptic) your beautiful quote of Jesus, in " At the Feet of the MASTER", is SO true.i believe that in our brokenness, is the point of Gods release into our spirit. Jesus ( in the bible) tried to tell us this truth, when He broke the bread( of life) and said, "DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME" that, to me, means that we need to be broken in our suffering in order for Him to pour His Blood of Life into us. that is how our sufferring can become Sacred. perhaps if you can bless your suffering, you will get the answer to it!i don't believe God wants us to suffer, but He allows it in order for us to be broken so that we can see that our spirit needs His Spirit to connect with us in His LOVE>( our intellect has not much to do with it!)i am praying for you to have the Wisdom of The Holy Spirit and His Healing. please let us know how you are doing. blessings. rebecca

okay people , you have to forgive me for not using my "spell check". the hour is late, and i am one of those peple over 50 that can't seem to find the time to master the art of the technical world we are now in. COMPUTERS. i love 'em and dislike them greatly.God bless YA for reading me. rebecca

Dear Phil, Derek, Shasha, Irene, Rebecca,

Thank you for the messages.
Phil, I have to read once 'The Meaning of the Crucifixion'. I agree with what you say. The way of the cross, the 'via negativa' is, I believe the supreme way. Identification with the suffering, crucified Christ is probably the highest form of spiritual life.


Derek and Shasha, you both speak of the need for psychotherapy/-analysis. I have known a woman who had gone through 15 years of analysis and said to me she felt quite well. Then I asked her why she was still in therapy, if she felt so good... I have my doubts about too much introspection and shoreless delving into the past. The human heart is uncredibly deep and our most inner man/woman is hidden with Christ in God. Maybe psychotherapy can help some people but I am afraid it addresses only the psyche, not the spirit.
But then I think charismatic healing prayer is sometimes superficial and naive (I had a lot of laying hands on me and prayers in the past). In fact, what is health, what is prosperity? It is all very relative. The body can be healed but the soul starving... So, I feel, that growing in acceptance and surrender, is the one only necessary thing to do.
Irene, I heard of hagiotherapy but didn't know it very well. I think that in the context of learning to surrender, it might be helpful to have some counselling in body relaxation. It is known that the 'amygdalas' and 'adrenal gland' play a crucial role in the processing of emotions, bodily tension, stress response of the sympathetic nervous system. I guess that ostepathy or craniosacral therapy can be helpful in re-establishing the self-regulating potential of the physical/emotional body.
Rebecca, I especially appreciate your great message! It is so simple and still so difficult (at least for our ego!).

Greetings,
Fred

Phil,

Restless, as you see...Clare from Shalom wrote me on my e-mail address. She has been helped by 'primal therapy' before. PRI has as one of it's roots primal therapy (Janov).
You however advices me to surrender, to identify with the suffering Christ. Some say, (psycho)therapy can be helpful.
I just want to say something else here. I feel I am more and more isolated and young colleagues appeal to my being critical and negative. I am indeed critical about my job (that has changed from general prevention work to education support of elders; it is alle very abstract and the Flemish government isn't exactly a model of transparency at this moment, but which governemnt is?)and critical about this world, but I have to live in it and be aware that this negativism doesn't destroy myself. I am not God, I am not Atlas even. It is very hard for me to live so far from wild nature. I feel deprived from my deepest self and nature. I have to learn to relax and to enjoy things again, but after all we are strangers on this world. This is probably the reason there isn't any woman coming into my life again. I am afraid that then I will subside to a more worldly life. I am not out of the big question of spirituality and sexuality either...
So, honestly speaking I think that the main struggle is in my thinking (a

as Rebecca pointed to). I am far too critical about everything. Is this probably a result of my having been Jehovah's Witness? The humor I had before has vanished and this is a sad sign!
Probably I am depressed, but who will say: this is a DN, this is a depression???
Greetings,
Fred

fred,(why are we calling you 'freddy'? an endearing term i'm sure)i have looked into craniosacral therapy and my opinion is that it will be only as good as the persons knowledge and spiritual growth. i know as knowledgable as you are about spiritual matters that you will be careful about who you will allow to work with your body. remember to trust God! it is a simple prayer of intent, and often we don't recognize how powerful it is. i have sometimes lost faith because of chronic pain. please don't allow that to happen. but if your faith is week, because of your pain, our Love can stand in the gap for you. my prayers are with you. rebecca

Freddy, you wrote: I have known a woman who had gone through 15 years of analysis and said to me she felt quite well. Then I asked her why she was still in therapy, if she felt so good... I have my doubts about too much introspection and shoreless delving into the past. The human heart is uncredibly deep and our most inner man/woman is hidden with Christ in God. Maybe psychotherapy can help some people but I am afraid it addresses only the psyche, not the spirit.

I'm not sure why you think it is your spirit that needs healing, Fred. Much of what you describe sounds like psychological woundedness. Just as you wouldn't try to heal a toothache by using a spiritual cure, the same goes for the psyche. One can combine psychological and spiritual healing, of course, but, as Derek noted, attempting to use spiritual disciplines to deal with a malady that is predominantly psychological isn't likely to work.

Psychological healing deals with issues pertaining to family of origin, emotional wounds, low self-esteem, relationship difficulties, and related issues. There are a wide variety of therapeutic approaches for dealing with these, some of which do respect the role of spirituality. Nevertheless, psychotherapies are different from spirituality, which is largely concerned with purpose, meaning, energy, awareness, self-transcendence, and related issues. You seem to have done a lot of good work and growing in the area of spirituality, so I think the issues lie elsewhere. Not a professional diagnosis, of course; just my hunch. Having done the good spiritual and religious work you have, through the years, is a huge plus, something that people who've only had psychotherapy are missing.

Freddy, are you familiar with the term "spiritual pride"? A sign of it may be: "I am a spiritual person, so my solution has to be spiritual. I am above psychotherapeutic or even medical treatment." Be careful not to fall into that trap!

About critisism: In myself I found it to be a way of (at least presumed) control. If I negate and critisise everything, nothing can get close enough to hurt me. I found that the wish to control/fear of losing it is a big motivating factor in me.
I don�t think having been a Jehova�s witness can be blamed for it per se. Those I know are not very critical, much less than me.

Are you aware there is a 12-step-group called Emotions Anonymous? If you are looking for a spiritual approach, this is one that has to do with surrender a lot. Working a 12 step program can be a real challenge and opportunity for growth on a solid, down-to-earth basis.

Irene

Dear ones,

Rebecca, how kind of you again! Yesterday I had after terrible pain in the afternoon a rather good evening, but what happened... I went out and consumed too much alcohol! It is as if there is always an inner saboteur, who doesn't wish that I am feeling good.

Phil, sorry but I am troubled again by the question about psychotherapy. Someone like Richard Moss: http://www.richardmoss.com/tea...ological_reality.php seems to believe that meditation, awareness, body consciousness ...alone is capable of solving psycho-emotional issues.
I have said before that Belgium is also a very poor country with regard to possible therapies...

Irene, thanks for the website. There are groups in Belgium but too far from where I live...As to taking medication, I have been taking it for years (lorazepam, alprazolam, antidepressants...) and now I want to phase out. Don't you think that as long as one takes medication that suppresses emotional and physical pain healing cannot take place???

Please keep on praying for discernment and rest!!!

Fred

I have made an appointment with a body therapist in Gent on this site: http://www.posturalintegration.info/English1.html
I felt I had to do this...
Fred

Freddy: "Is it possible that through prayer and meditation (contemplation) alone is enough or is there any need for therapy with all this pain and unresolved emotions?"

Hi Freddy, It seems you have covered just about everything. I think the above quote of yours is the answer, that through prayer and meditation the Holy Spirit will lead you as to which therapies would be most helpful to you. Everyone's "path" is different. You can't do it all!! So, I think the "secret" is to relax, let go and let God lead you.

Best,
Katy

Hi, Freddy,

That body therapy looks interesting. I'd be interested to know if it brings relief or new perspectives.

Derek.

freddy, i am a big fan of twelve step programs(irene). if you are not familiar with them, the website irene gave you may be of help. that is also one of phil's field of expertise and he may be able to provide some online counseling if there are no programs in your area. twelve step programs( like psychotherapy and anything else) are only as good as the people in your group and counselors, and every group has their own personality( like group therapy) so don't give up on it until you find the right fit. someone like phil, i think, is great, becuase he is so learned in not only christianity, but also many other eastern disciplines and types of therapies, and it sounds like you need someone who can asses where you are and put all of it together for you in order to give you some feedback that you are not able to see.if you are sincere in working the program, it is an amazing opportunity to take an honest look at yourself.something that we as human beings, rarely do. not for lack of trying, but because our mere humanity makes it very difficult.(i.e. when being painfree the other night,YEAH, needing to go 'celebrate'boo, in an unhealthy way) of course, i TOTALLY understand, being of irish decent and NEVER have totally given up alcohol myself, HA!, it makes perfect sense to me!anyway, the twelve step program can accomplish what years of therapy did not, if done correctly. so, talk to phil. secondly, i feel that you are still, resisting THE HOLY SPIRIT in providing you with guidance.this is where you are absolutly going to get a leading(in your spirit, which by the way is) deep in your gut, unless you have trained yourself to ignore that gut feeling, in which case you should become familiar with it again which takes some courage, in 'letting go, and letting God'! ( if you can follow these long preachy sentences then you are in better shape than you may have thought!) as KATY has said, and i don't think we are going to let you bypass this point. ('you can't do it alone' concept.)i have had some miracles happen in my life after praying for TWO WEEKS, day and night for God to teach me how to surrender to Him.after those two weeks miracles in my emotions and life circumstance began to happen. of course it didn't make my life perfect. on the contrary! i believe The Lord kept upping my trials( learning experiences) in order to grow me, but my faith had grown also as my RELATIONSHIP grew with God.relationship is really what it's all about on this earth. we need each other and we need God( who we find in each other) which actually leads back to the twelve step program.i am sorry that you cannot find one in your area. but i am going to pray for that also. and i will also pray for your pain again( God gives us unlimited grace and oportunities to discover what we need to be whole.)and also for you to connect with the right friends. it sounds like you may be sufferring from lonliness also, as you had stated that you have isolated yourself .DEEP BREATHS and HOPE! rebecca

Freddy,

I might add, and as you mentioned, "body work" can be a great help... actually a necessity in my opinion. It is something that Christians and other spiritual seekers often overlook. It is my opinion, and also my experience that our bodies have deeply ingrained "holding patterns" that can sometimes prevent us from totally relaxing. So your decision to go to a body therapist is, I believe, a step in the right direction.

And I'll say Amen and Amen to the DEEP BREATHS

I'll be praying for you Freddy.

Katy

Dear Katy, Derek, Rebecca,

I have called the body therapist and it is a man with lots of knowledge and experience on the mind-body phenomenon. http://www.orgone.org/therpy00.htm (see Dirk Marivoet).

So I believe body work can be a great help, but it is the question not to stop too early as I did before...

What are you mening by deep breaths? I try to breathe as naturally as possible, without forcing anything. I have experienced that through forcing my breath by f.e. circular breathing (M. Skye), the day after my pain was unbearable.

Phil, please see the post by Rebecca!

Greetings,
Fred

Freddy, did you "play" the wind instrument and try to maintain one long note? That's not the kind of breathing I mean. Actually I didn't know there was another "kind" of circular breathing. What I learned is transformational breathing, (Judith Kravitz) sometimes called circular breathing. I am also learning from Michael White at this site:

http://breathing.com/

Have you had a chest xray or anything concerning the pain in your chest?

I get tightness and pain in my chest too, when my breathing gets dysfunctional, which is often due to stress. The breathing gets "locked".

More and more I believe relaxation is the key.. the key to breathing correctly and to hearing the voice of God.. But first some of us need body work! :-)

Katy

i agree with katy, about the chest x-ray. what about that? freddy, i don't mean for you to do any breathing that would be painful.the deep breathing i do is whenever i feel stress coming on. it is rather gentle and relaxed and just slow enough to be comfortable, and i take in the "good" air( mental picture) and let the"bad" air be released in a slow natural completness, and then there is a sort of relaxed moment in which i am not actually taking it back in again until i feel the urge. the whole thing is VERY relaxed and natural. i have been to many "ENERGY" conferences, ( the latest one given by mietek wirkus, from poland who is a catholic healer who has his office in the research hospital in bethesda, maryland)i have learned that these breathing techniques will actually balance your energy and get rid of the neg. neurons surounding us and i ALWAYS do it before i lay hands on anyone in healing prayer. i believe we have to combine a little of our scientific knowledge, with our spiritual , but be led by the HOLY SPIRIT! peace and love rebecca

Dear Katy & Rebecca,

Thanks to God, I have less pain these last 2 days. I am able to stay with myself, lying down and relaxing, while breathing and saying my Jesus-word. Don't underestimate the role of Mary and the rosary in leading us either! Rosary is to my opinion much more than a path to contemplative prayer, as T. Keating says.
I am most interested in biblical (and general) anthropology.

Please go to: www.hridayamyoga.org/papers/4ViaKundalini.doc!

Go to Google: 'On drawing the mind into the heart...'(D. Bradshaw)
and: 'The unity of the human person...'(K. Ware)

Do you both know about excellent texts on transpersonal psychology and Christianity and on body therapies and Christianity?

I feel the body therapy will do me good!

PAX,
Fred

Freddy, Does it have to be specifically Christian? I can only think of Hildegard.. are you familiar with her books, music, etc.?

I also found this site where you might find something.

http://wellsprings.com.sg/nzc/

Katy