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Shasha and Caneman,

I've no problem with any of that, but to base revival or centre one's spirituality on a manifestation of signs and wonders is problematic. I'm not saying we should go around looking for sickness and suffering so we all can be perfected. Nor am I saying we all need to be hammered about the redemptive power of suffering. I've just seen so much damage caused by denial and the emphasis on signs and wonders in the search for spiritual truth.


There are plenty of scripture verses and teaching by the likes of JPII suggesting that suffering and transcendence are intimately linked (see JP IIs Private Prayers - The Loving Heart), and that our suffering is part of universal redemption. This seems to me a much deeper teaching and one that is more alive to the reality of our human condition. When we suffer we are joined with Christ's passion and are with Him working out the salvation of the world. I find that remarkable.

When all's said and done, however, I really want to concentrate on my heart and allow Christ to work there. Everything else just seems a distraction.

(And what about those gold teeth Confused Confused )
 
Posts: 464 | Location: UK | Registered: 28 May 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Shasha:
[qb]A charismatic contemplative...yeah, there's a few around...we tend to be more on the quiet side, right Phil? Wink
Smiler

Hey Derek! Nice to have you join the discussion. Christ's peace be with you!!
Smiler [/qb]
Right. Smiler In my case, praying in tongues (which I believe to be a type of contemplative prayer) leads to inner rest in that "secret inner room" that's been alluded to.

Gold teeth? People raised from the dead? It would be great if some of these reports could actually be substantiated, as there would be no scientific explanation available. This generation badly needs "signs and wonders" to help turn their attention to God.

I've watched a little more of the streaming video, and am struck by how much "slaying in the Spirit" goes on. It seems this is the "intervention" for basically any kind of problem. Granted, it gives the Spirit complete access for awhile, but at some point the individual has to co-operate to change attitudes and behaviors. I hate to see spiritual healing presented as though it were some magical "quick fix."

I'm also struck, as I have been many times before, by the "shaktipat dynamic" at work in these kinds of healing services. I don't think that can be denied; the "touch" is one of "power" and it overwhelms the consciousness of the one touched for awhile -- an ecstatic experience of sorts.

It will be interesting to see how this continues to unfold. By their fruits shall we know . . .
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] I'm also struck, as I have been many times before, by the "shaktipat dynamic" at work in these kinds of healing services. [/qb]
Oh yeah ... what a great insight! Phil, I notice you have a book on kundalini and Christianity that is out of print. CreateSpace (which gets you a POD paperback listed on Amazon) is doing free set-up during June, provided you can obtain reversion of rights.
 
Posts: 140 | Location: Canada | Registered: 26 May 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My major problem with the charismatic movement is the fact that every manifestation gets attributed to the Holy Spirit. Even in praise and worship, when the energy intensifies, the HS is credited, when in actual fact all that's happened is the band has kicked in a little harder. There is no acknowledgement of psychic energy at work simply because, being fundamentalist based, "psychic" energy is seen as counterfeit, occult, Satanic. Yeah, just like shaktipat.

If people believe in it, get a kick out of it, fine. Just don't confuse it with the Holy Spirit. A lot of spiritual pride in this.

The healing and signs and wonders that went on around Pentecost were necessary to establish the church. That acomplished, to me, the Holy Spirit works more towards uniting the church with Christ in love and holiness. I see a power in love which is more able to bring this generation to God than any signs and wonders. Christ himself berated the Pharisees for seeking a sign, calling on faith and love of God and neigbour as the true means of redemption.

And Derek, hello!! I reckon the vast majority of people who visit these revivals believe in them before they go. Same with those who don't go. Which kinda makes sense really.

I've been around charismatics for a while, had hands laid on me etc, was closely linked to a church with strong Toronto connections. Received the "blessing" second hand, so to speak, and was really messed up for months. The energy imparted to me played havoc with my own energy, caused me a great deal of suffering, which made me think it wasn't primarily Holy Sprit power. Why would the HS do such damage? Also went to a Francis McNutt healing service in Edinburgh and the dynamic was totally different - quiet, gentle, dignified and a lot less falling about when hands were laid on people. No ill effects reported Smiler .
 
Posts: 464 | Location: UK | Registered: 28 May 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb] Even in praise and worship, when the energy intensifies, the HS is credited, when in actual fact all that's happened is the band has kicked in a little harder.[/qb]
Someone who was there describes the whole mechanism on his blog, and says it reminded him of a book he'd read called Mastering Hypnosis:

http://www.darinhufford.com/article.php?id=19

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb] There is no acknowledgement of psychic energy at work simply because, being fundamentalist based, "psychic" energy is seen as counterfeit, occult, Satanic. Yeah, just like shaktipat.[/qb]
An article on his own website talks about the time he was off work for three months, and he spent his usual work hours in prayer--i.e., something like 4 to 8 hours a day, for three months:

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=103&pid=8

There must be some kind of energy that builds up when you pray that much over an extended period of time.

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb] Also went to a Francis McNutt healing service in Edinburgh and the dynamic was totally different - quiet, gentle, dignified and a lot less falling about when hands were laid on people. No ill effects reported. [/qb]
I have ordered a copy of Francis McNutt's book.
 
Posts: 140 | Location: Canada | Registered: 26 May 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Derek:
[qb] [QUOTE]An article on his own website talks about the time he was off work for three months, and he spent his usual work hours in prayer--i.e., something like 4 to 8 hours a day, for three months:

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=103&pid=8

There must be some kind of energy that builds up when you pray that much over an extended period of time.

[/qb]
Derek-- I don't believe that Todd's experience in worship is about any kind of energy/ kundalini. Nor did I experience shaktipat in my guru/yoga days as the same as the intimacy / love / Presence of God. Here is a quote from that article you have posted above:

-------------
I remember visiting Todd at his small Abbotsford apartment. He would be lying on the floor of his living room, an instrumental worship tape playing and the Holy Spirit's presence thick in the room. I would join him sitting in the Presence and would also begin to enter into visions and revelations of the Father. I remember Todd worshipping the Lord and telling the Holy Spirit how much he loved and valued Him. Like King David, this young God chaser would often cry out scriptures like: "My soul thirsts for you, my flesh longs for you, in a dry and weary land where there is no water".
---------------

While there may be an energetic component to worship, just as our hormones are involved during growth spurts, this thick Presence that is referred to above and which Caneman referred to in previous posts is the Kabod (Kavod?), Glory of God that is referred to in the Old Testement. IT is not the same as energy or shakipat/kundalini. If you compare the subjective experiences of those with kundalini rushes, it just doesn't sound like those who have experienced the Kavod--Glory of God.
 
Posts: 352 | Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan | Registered: 24 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory (kavod) of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.
.......1 Kings 8:10
 
Posts: 352 | Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan | Registered: 24 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb] There is no acknowledgement of psychic energy at work simply because, being fundamentalist based, "psychic" energy is seen as counterfeit, occult, Satanic. Yeah, just like shaktipat.

If people believe in it, get a kick out of it, fine. Just don't confuse it with the Holy Spirit. A lot of spiritual pride in this.
[/qb]
I agree with you Stephen, that people in these kinds of crowds seem to attribute all manifestations to the work of the Holy Spirit, but they don't have the kind of knowledge that you and I may have.

I don't think that's necessarily about spiritual *pride* as lack of knowledge and understanding.
 
Posts: 352 | Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan | Registered: 24 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Shasha,

I don't know how many people I've had coming up to me saying:"There's more" or "You can have more"(than you actually have) or "WE believe in the FULL GOSPEL"(you don't), when what they have to offer is a poor imitation of the glory of God ie psychic power. I see a lot of pride in this.

I'm not so sure that people are experiencing the Kabod at Todd's meetings. I think it would APPEAR, as it did in the OT to priests etc and would probably be visible, even over the airwaves, to everyone watching (notice your quote mentions a "cloud"). A lot of the energy I've experienced at charismatic meetings is "thick" and can feel pretty darned wonderful, but I still wouldn't call it the glory of God. I may be wrong. The whole show doesn't seem to me to be condusive to divine visitation at this level.

To me the glory of God has a lightness which sends my heart into raptures.
 
Posts: 464 | Location: UK | Registered: 28 May 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
A lot of the energy I've experienced at charismatic meetings is "thick"...
quote:
To me the glory of God has a lightness...
Stephen, I was just about writing something similar. Words like "thick" or "heavy" have been irritating me in the descriptions of attendants.
My experience is that the energy is thicker, more dense, more "material" in the lower chakras, whereas it changes quality when led upwards, and becomes the finer and lighter the further it goes upwards. Energy on the level of emotions (solar plexus) I would still call thick, on the level of the (spiritual) heart not so any more. Does anybody here have different experiences?

After watching him for an extended time yesterday to find out how I react, I had a night of unpleasant kriyas. It leaves behind the impression of a slightly "brutal" energy coming from watching him.
Whatever it may be, I don�t know, but I feel a clear resistance against watching him once more. It�s simply not for me.
 
Posts: 15 | Registered: 04 June 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Shasha:A charismatic contemplative...yeah, there's a few around...we tend to be more on the quiet side, right Phil? Wink
Smiler [/QB]
Hi Shasha, Todd was a product in part of the last major outpouring of God in Toronto, and it seems to me that the major fruit of that move was the introduction of contemplative prayer... they experienced this type of prayer after being "slain in the spirit" for extended periods of time and have come to call it "soaking prayer"... I have yet to see them make this connection between "soaking" and contemplation, but it seems to me to be very similar.

Caneman
 
Posts: 99 | Registered: 25 February 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] Right. Smiler In my case, praying in tongues (which I believe to be a type of contemplative prayer) leads to inner rest in that "secret inner room" that's been alluded to.[/qb]
Phil, you are only the second person I have heard to make a connection between tongues and contemplative prayer... the other person is a Jesuit priest named Richard Faricy (nice name huh?!, but he is a very good teacher) and he likens tongues to "noisy contemplative prayer". This has been my experience also, that tongues can lead to contemplation. However, I don't think the charismatic/pentecostal teachings on tongues have made this connection yet... this is where they could benefit greatly from the teachings of the Christian mystics... I think one day this connection will happen as the different streams within the Body of Jesus will all flow into His River of Life!

Blessings,

Caneman
 
Posts: 99 | Registered: 25 February 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Caneman, "tongues" is definitely non-discursive, and in its spontaneous manifestations, it is also infused. I agree with Faricy on this (yes, he is a good teacher and writer).

Derek, I have re-published my book on kundalini and several others that are out of print. Click around the main site and you'll find the variety of works available here. You might start with http://shalomplace.com/psrbks.html

Good discussion! Smiler
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Derek:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb] Even in praise and worship, when the energy intensifies, the HS is credited, when in actual fact all that's happened is the band has kicked in a little harder.[/qb]
Someone who was there describes the whole mechanism on his blog, and says it reminded him of a book he'd read called Mastering Hypnosis:

http://www.darinhufford.com/article.php?id=19

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb] There is no acknowledgement of psychic energy at work simply because, being fundamentalist based, "psychic" energy is seen as counterfeit, occult, Satanic. Yeah, just like shaktipat.[/qb]
An article on his own website talks about the time he was off work for three months, and he spent his usual work hours in prayer--i.e., something like 4 to 8 hours a day, for three months:

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=103&pid=8

There must be some kind of energy that builds up when you pray that much over an extended period of time.

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb] Also went to a Francis McNutt healing service in Edinburgh and the dynamic was totally different - quiet, gentle, dignified and a lot less falling about when hands were laid on people. No ill effects reported. [/qb]
I have ordered a copy of Francis McNutt's book. [/qb]
Derek, that is some very good information... these types of experiences may or may not be happening in Lakeland. There are subtle psychological differences between autosuggestion, self-hypnosis, the "power of positive affirmation", etc. and meditation, prayer, and contemplation... different brain wave activity, different experiences, etc. between these two classes of phenomena. There are two very good books I have read that explain these subtle differences well:

Silent music: The science of meditation, by Johnston, William

The Blissful Brain, by Shanida Nataraja

Blessings,

Caneman
 
Posts: 99 | Registered: 25 February 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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shasha, i am a new member and have a question regarding your post;may21,2008 @12:24. as you posted your impression of the 19 yr. old girl that seemed to you so pure in spirit, and you felt a twinge of shame. you seem very knowledgable about Gods Healing power, i assume that you don't believe that a 'healer' needs to be pure in spirit to act as a vessel of Gods Healing Power? correct? thank you, for the prayers by f.mcnutt. i had read his books some 20 years ago and did not remember those prayers, but have been using a version of them for years. i now use them day and night. i have actually asked my guardian angel to say them over me and my children and grandchildren and husband and all the abused children of the world, on a moment by moment basis, and i believe it!( and no, i am NOT a "bliss ninny"! i tend to agree a lot with stephen.( but not entirely)i am so grateful to phil for administering this website.it really helps on the days when i am dry. love to all. rebecca
 
Posts: 45 | Location: over the rainbow | Registered: 03 April 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] Derek, I have re-published my book on kundalini and several others that are out of print. [/qb]
Hi, Phil, I mean that CreateSpace could get your reprint listed on Amazon. Right now it is out of print there:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0824510623/

People are more comfortable buying from Amazon than from a site they don't know, so you will sell more copies. The free set-up at CreateSpace lasts till the end of July. Let me know if you want help, as I have all the software for professional typesetting on my PC here.

Derek.
 
Posts: 140 | Location: Canada | Registered: 26 May 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Derek, I understand what you're saying, but if you click on the "used and new" option, you'll see that I have it listed there under PHILISA.

I'm familiar with POD, but will check out CreateSpace to see what they offer. Thanks.
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by REBECCA:
[qb] you seem very knowledgable about Gods Healing power, i assume that you don't believe that a 'healer' needs to be pure in spirit to act as a vessel of Gods Healing Power? correct?

[/qb]
Greetings to you, Rebecca. Christ's peace to you and your family! I'm glad to hear that you are feeling nurtured by Shalom Place. Smiler

I'm actually quite new to Christ's healing power...I feel moved to pray for healing across many areas of my life, so I need God's Grace and try to avail myself of that as much as I can. I'm studying with the MacNutt's lately and visiting and reading about some of the wonderful men and women of God who have walked in healing love and power.

As far as needing to be pure in spirit to be a healer, I don't think so. Jesus shared somewhere in scripture that some who healed in His Name were nonetheless "evil doers," that He never knew them! Francis MacNutt shares in one of his books that some with the gift of healing can still be lacking in character, and he prefers not to have these on his team.
 
Posts: 352 | Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan | Registered: 24 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] if you click on the "used and new" option, you'll see that I have it listed there under PHILISA.[/qb]
Oh, now I see!
 
Posts: 140 | Location: Canada | Registered: 26 May 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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sasha, thanks for the reply. i am very happy for you that you have found Gods Healing LOVE!!! isn't it an AMAZING journey. you are definitly around wonderful people ( mac nutts)i am constantly amazed and humbled by Gods Love for us. what i meant to say is that we do not have to be "GOOD" people to be a vessel for Gods healing power. of course we must have the right INTENTION( God looks on our heart, not our sins)but mabe pure of heart IS what we need, ... but what i meant was that we do not have to be perfect and pure in our humanity, in order to heal others( through Gods Grace) or to be healed ourselves. i have seen so many people that are blocking Gods healing because they don't feel deserving of it. i also have seen miracles of healing take place with people that are deep in the midst of sin>( i for one)THAT is his AMAZING grace!so i just wanted to clarify that. love and peace, ...and phil, i can't find spell check on here?PLEASE!!
 
Posts: 45 | Location: over the rainbow | Registered: 03 April 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by REBECCA:
[qb] what i meant to say is that we do not have to be "GOOD" people to be a vessel for Gods healing power. of course we must have the right INTENTION( God looks on our heart, not our sins)but mabe pure of heart IS what we need, ... but what i meant was that we do not have to be perfect and pure in our humanity, in order to heal others( through Gods Grace) or to be healed ourselves.

[/qb]
OH, OK, now I see what you mean, Rebecca. I do agree with you in that we apparently do not have to be perfect and pure in our humanity...

but wanting God's love and healing Grace seems deeply synthesized with wanting also to be obedient to God's will and overall be motivated by "goodness." Smiler
 
Posts: 352 | Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan | Registered: 24 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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shasha,i guess i am reacting to the fundamentaist churches i have been in where people seem to use their ministries(healing and otherwise) to create an image of being somehow worthy of having God work through them. i see so many people embracing a 'feel good about myself' spirituality, and to me that is an artificial(and convenient) path. the path to God is not easy, but there is a peace that comes from admitting our frailty, after all, we all know, as hard as we try,we don't come close to being good enough. i see too many judgemental 'christians' that don't want to face their problems.so please forgive me for reacting, its something i am working through right now. trying to be as TOTALLY honest with myself and to others about myself.
 
Posts: 45 | Location: over the rainbow | Registered: 03 April 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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where is the spell check?phil Eeker
 
Posts: 45 | Location: over the rainbow | Registered: 03 April 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Dear friends,

I want to give you an update from Francis MacNutt who just returned from a Vatican office conference--International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Service. This summer was their 2nd colloquium on healing, and Francis was invited to talk on the "Charism of Faith."

He reports that there is a strong growth of Catholic leaders who have directly experienced the "charisms of the Spirit." In fact, Francis writes that he met one bishop, Joe Grech of Australia, who only ordains priests in his diocese if they have 1) been baptized in the Spirit, 2) attended a life-in-the-Spirit seminar, and 3) led a life-in-the-Spirit seminar.

The other "extraordinary change" reported by Francis is that

"exorcism is now an accepted ministry. Ten years ago, there were only seven priests involved in the International Order of Exorcists and now there are hundreds...the leader of this group, Fr. Gabriel Amorth, CP, who is the official exorcist of Rome and who has had the audacity to write that any bishop who does not provide an exorcist in his diocese is committing a serious sin. This represents a major shift in the practice of the Roman Catholic Church."

On the other hand, most bishops in Europe advertise "blessing" sevice and reportedly "refuse to talk about healing services." Catholic healing prayer and deliverence is practiced in many other parts of the world including especially the Third World countries, Brazil, some African countries, and India.

Peace to you, dear ones!
 
Posts: 352 | Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan | Registered: 24 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have mixed feelings about what you're resporting here, Shasha. On the one hand, every baptized Christian has received the Holy Spirit and is blessed with certain charisms, even if they haven't spoken in tongues or been through a "Life in the Spirit" seminar. The tendency among charismatics has been to focus on "extraordinary charisms" like healing, prophecy, tongues, miracles, etc., while failing to acknowledge the more ordinary charisms of teaching, preaching, encouraging, administering, hospitality, mercy, knowledge, wisdom, helps, etc. that are alive and well everywhere. Groups like the Catherine of Siena Institute have helped to raise awareness of these charisms and to acknowledge their presence in our midst.

That Vatican exorcist -- Fr. Amorth -- is very much an extremist when it comes to this topic, imo. He claims to have performed over 50,000 exorcisms, which, if you put the pencil to it, comes out to over 1,400 a year or over four per day (no days off) during his 34 years of priesthood. You as a therapist know there's no way to have 1,400 sessions a year -- not if you're doing your job right. Presumably, making the determination of possession requiring exorcism entails as much or more discernment as determining what kind(s) of psychopathology a person might have. I'm thinking there's something very wrong with either Fr. Amorth's numbers or his methods. He also seems to be suggesting that that "Harry Potter" books open one to demonic invasion. I think that's ridiculous.

Whatever the case, I'm glad to hear more priests and bishops are open to gifts of healing and are more attuned to the possibility of demonic activity. Let's just hope the pendulum doesn't swing to excess in the direction now of "a devil behind every problematic behavior."
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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