Dear friends, Greetings from Lakeland, Florida where a wonderful revival is happening with Todd Bentley. My friend and I are bristling a little at the "loud" and "flashy" parts of it, but we're enjoying the worship and marvelous testimonies of healing that are happening all around.

Caneman, I've been praying that you receive God's gift of healing!!

http://floridaoutpouring.com/

Christ's peace to you, Shasha

Shasha, according to the website you gave, one of the claims of the Florida Outpouring is this:

"The count just keeps going up of people who have died and been raised from the dead! Miracles are breaking out! Todd prays that raising the dead will become a common miracle!"

And on May 15th:

"IT IS AWESOME!! THERE ARE NOW 8 CONFIRMED RAISED FROM THE DEAD."

Is this true?

Ditto, HP. I have the same questions. If this could be actually verified, then what a testimony!

Only . . . it would seem that those who have died are in a better place if they are saved, no? Why bring them back?

I watched some of the streaming broadcast, with the leader shouting, "I command healing!"

Gosh, I don't know, Shasha. Keep us posted.

Peace. Phil

I'm sorry to say I have my own reservations about all this too. I've seen a lot on God TV and been involved in a church here with Toronto connections. All the rolling around and shaking, and the whole drunkeness thing I find kind of off putting. Sure there's something going on, some kind of outpouring but I'm disinclined to think its the Holy Spirit. More human/psychic/metaphysical.

A lot of the testimonies I find hard to credit. People hobble out of wheelchairs when they should be walking and leaping, and as for the resurrections, show me an empty grave and I might believe.

Sorry Shasha, but isn't there a kind of collective energy at work here, or a psychic energy flowing through TB, which may well bare certain types of spiritual fruit(including healing), but lacks those fruits of the Spirit like meekness, self control etc which would point to a more subtle yet more lasting and effective outpouring.

What worries me are the damaging effects to the psyche which are ignored among all the hype and razzamatazz, and which only emerge into the public domain at a later date, and also the more literalist, fundamentalist tendencies which surround these outpourings.

Hi,
What disturbs me about this video is that this guy talks a person into believing he will go to hell.
Has he never heard of forgiveness of sins in confession? Has he never heard of divine mercy?

I happened to be at a catholic charismatic retreat in switzerland this pentecost (before, I wasn�t really aware it was a charismatic event - and wouldn�t have had any idea what that would mean anyway; the topics just sounded interesting, so I went there) - and still don�t know what to make of it.

There wasn�t as much of a show as I saw in some videos on youtube afterwards - the leaders of the retreat were simple and humble priests as far as I can see. One of them actually moved me to tears with his speech, not from emotional stirr-ups, but from feeling the presence of love in him. He embodied it. I haven�t seen this love in the "televangelist-types".

Still, there was a lot of group-dynamics and things on the emotional side going on in this retreat, some things I would simply call "not my type of spirituality", others make me wonder about discernment of spirits and the level things were on. E.g. loud praying doesn�t do it for me, and I don�t go with the meaning they put on physical healing. I�m in for the eternal stuff.

When I realized what this retreat was about, I wondered what the "effusion of the Holy Spirit" would be about - is this really the Holy Spirit? How would kundalini react to it?
Still, I have more questions than answers. Some things were set in motion, but on what level? Emotional, spiritual? There was a big inner joy in me the days afterwards, and it still is with me, more easily available than before.

There also was quite some talk about sin, demons, exorcism etc. in the retreat, which awoke horrible feelings in me, but on the other hand maybe gave me the opportunity to heal these old fears inside me a bit more.

As kundalini has been crashing against some old blockage in my nasal sinuses for some time, it is all a bit exaggerated presently, my moods, emotional and spiritual impressions, being "hyper" most of the time, tending to obsessional thoughts and behaviours...

I feel it was important for me to have been there, I feel like I was meant to be there. The real fruits will have to be seen much later, or maybe it will never be possible to discern them from what would have happened anyway.
As I said, still trying to make sense of this experience, that�s why I felt the need to talk about it. Thanks for "listening".

Irene - "I don�t go with the meaning they put on physical healing. I�m in for the eternal stuff."

Dear friends,

Yeah, I wish they'd take greater care in getting verification of the now 13 resurrections reportedly connected with this revival. Last night, I happened to sit next to a minister from West Virginia whose wife knew the woman reported below who was raised 17 hours after she died. They reported that she had received prayer from a fellow choir member who had received "impartation" from Todd's gathering. The praying in person had happened some time before she died, not after.

http://radiantgod.blogspot.com...ad-todd-bentley.html

About resurrections, yes, this is a very interesting subject!! Why DID Jesus raise people from the dead?? Is it because He knew that their death was OUTSIDE of God�s timing and had compassion for their loss of life? Isn�t this the only reason we would want to see the dead raised today? I like Sanford�s take on healing, and resurrections are a kind of healing, I guess. In her autobiography, she writes, �In all these years I have found only one effective motive for healing: compassion. If we desire to heal someone by the power of Jesus in order to glorify Jesus, then somehow we usually fail to reach that person. Jesus is glorified of course through every healing, but only when we are, as He was, �moved by compassion� (Mark 1:41).

About Todd's style and this kind of show and passion, a friend of mine captures my reaction to it all: they're like the loud and flashy aunt and uncle in the family whom you love, are happy to visit, but you're glad you don't have to live with them.


Todd says, �Some people call it hype, some call it emotion, I call it being fervent in prayer� linking it to the Bible verse, �the fervent prayers of the righteous avail much."

Hello Irene, glad to meet you, listen to a bit of your story. You and Stephen ask a good question about whether it's HS or kundalini / personal energy that Todd�s using to create healing.

Of course, I don�t know, but my impression is that Todd is very intimate with the Lord. I read his autobiography. I beleive him when he says that he actually hears from God who directs his praying for healing. He taught last night that there are four ways that healing happens:

1) through reading, hearing, or standing on the Word of God

2) being in the presence of God, what many call the �Glory of God� that many experience at these meetings, during worship, praise, etc. (I personally feel there is a difference between the Glory of God and kundalini energy.)

3) prayer of faith for healing, laying on of hands

4) words of knowledge

Todd feels that God wants him to be open to healing the sick in all of these ways, but he seems to have an unusual gift of healing through "words of knowledge" and people are literally healed as he speaks what God tells him--in real time, that is. For instance, I heard the testimony of a man last night who had been in a recent meeting and Todd had called out, "God is creating a new right calf muscle for somebody who needs it!" The man had been in an accident and his right leg below his knee had been cut off and sewed back on. He was highly limited in what he could do after the surgery. Upon hearing Todd's words, he reported that he felt heat rush through his leg. He immediately pulled his leg up on a chair, lifted up his pant leg, and literally saw a new calf muscle where there was none. He was then able to move his leg about and do things he had not able to do until then! A creative miracle from a word of knowledge.

Other people are healed during the worship. A saw a young woman testify that she was healed of scoliosis Friday night. She had had scoliosis all her life and during the worship she said she felt led to forgive her brother. As she repeated, �I forgive him,� she felt intense heat go through her spine and straighten out! She was jumping up and down and bending over and reportedly had never been able to do that. These were just two of many, many testimonies that are pouring in every day. I only heard three nights of remarkable testimonies like this and most folks seemed genuine to me. Of course, there are always the few who seem questionable.

That's all for now...

Christ�s peace to you all!

Thanks for replying, Shasha.

I watched a bit of Todd on God TV last night. No doubt there is some sort of power emanating from Lakeland, even over the air waves. I felt it. But I just didn't trust it. It seems to me you have to wholly give yourself over to this. I just wasn't able to, and as soon as I closed myself off, the power in a sense was switched off.

It comes across as a type of mass hysteria. There is a conformity or modishness of language, of behaviour, of opinion which I'm too much of an individual to trust. I noticed Todd shakes his head a lot, claiming it as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. This is very much a symptom of my own Kundalini awakening. When the energy flows to the head, the head shakes. A lot of the people in the audience were manifesting the same effect. It seemed to me they were giving themselves over/surrendering their wills to something they knew nothing about. There was no rational analysis, no intellectual comprehension of what was actually going on. The response was purely emotional. You could call that trust. I call it blind faith. Todd himself said at one point that he didn't understand all the manifestations, he just thought it was the HS and was willing to give himself over to it because it felt good. How incredibly naive!

Incredible words of knowledge can happen at the level of human consciousness too, especially when K is active and let loose. I've had a few myself. And when the collective energy of 10,000 people is unleashed, who knows what wonders can occur. Much of Christ's healing was done quietly, privately - "Tell no one, but go to the temple and be purified."

On the whole, similar things happen at gatherings under Hindu gurus - for slayings read shaktipat, for holy rollings read spontaneous asanas, for words of knowledge read psychic prediction. Same thing with a different dress on. Whether the Holy Sprit chooses to be active amid the psychic fireworks is down to God's mercy and grace.

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:
[qb] Dear friends, Greetings from Lakeland, Florida where a wonderful revival is happening with Todd Bentley. My friend and I are bristling a little at the "loud" and "flashy" parts of it, but we're enjoying the worship and marvelous testimonies of healing that are happening all around.

Caneman, I've been praying that you receive God's gift of healing!! [/qb]

Thank you for the prayer! That is wonderful that you went ot FL to experience this significant move of God, I hope to go myself at the end of June.

There is a report that one man was raised from being dead while in his coffin at the funeral home... apparently the family requested that he not be embalmed, but placed in the casket and wanted reruns of the FL Outpouring played by the casket. At 2am in the morning, the man started to stir in the coffin, then sat up and started to praise God... he said that he journeyed to heaven, and while there could hear the prayers of Todd Bentley praying for his raising and then he returned... I am waiting for this man, who is from Georgia, to give a televised broadcast, but I am sure it will happen within a week or so.

I believe God raises people from the dead because their time on earth has not yet been fulfilled... I believe the enemy can rob people of the fullness of their time because of their choices, but if God's people intervene with prayer God at times honors this faith and restores the dead person to life. Remember, folks, that prayer to raise someone from the dead is biblical.

I am not sure how many of you have been to meetings like this, but the presence of God begins to show itself forth and the air literally feels like it has a weight or substance to it (which is the OT Kabod), you can feel it pressing on you both inside and out, wrapping around you like a heavy blaket! Sometimes there seems to be a hazy light associated with the phenomenon, that is like a cloud (cloud of His glory?)... this presence of God can feel like a tremendous peace, an ecstatic joy, or an absolutely indescribable wonderful feeling of "shalom"... in Florida folks say this Presence of God is unlike anything they have ever expererienced, and I hear testimonies like this from pastors and teachers who have been ministering publicly in meetings like this for decades. Maybe Shasha can share more of her experience there...

But as always, the danger always comes when people seek more for the experiences of God, than for the God of the experiences...

Caneman

Sorry Caneman, I just don't buy it. I've been to meetings like this and the energy has played havoc with my kundalini. One man's meat is another's poison, I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb]. . .One man's meat is another's poison, I guess. [/qb]

LOL!

Well, I just don't know . . . (find myself saying that a lot about a lot of things). Jesus did heal people and raised some from the dead, as did the Apostles and saints through the ages. The same Spirit is available to us today; I don't have a problem acknowledging that.

I guess it's something of the "spirit" of the gathering, message and ministry I see on the streaming video that clashes with my spirit. Like Stephen, I experience an inner resistance of some kind, not so much to healings and the like, but to the kind of energy being projected. Could be it's just "not my style," which isn't saying anything about whether the Holy Spirit is at work there. As always, we must look for the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5) to authenticate a movement or ministry. And even if it's all more on a "natural order" (metaphysical, psychic), that doesn't mean it's about sin or the occult. High voltage stuff, however; caution is advised.

The word dead can have different understandings.
Some Eastern Traditions know of a state of union
that to outside observation says the person does
not have signs of life. Some will continue
onto actual physical death but some will return.
Some will return with profound healing.

I have heard something about people being able
to stay in this state for like 3 days, maybe longer.
Would be interesting to know more about these
folks that according to some have come back from
the dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb] Sorry Caneman, I just don't buy it. I've been to meetings like this and the energy has played havoc with my kundalini. One man's meat is another's poison, I guess. [/qb]

That's OK Stephen, in almost any move of God there is going to be some mixture of Spirit and flesh. We will just have to see if what is really happening is indeed God showing forth His manifest and tangible love to people in the form of healings, deliverance from demons, and enveloping them in His felt presence. We will just have to look at the fruit that is birthed from what is going on in Florida to see if God is really behind this or if is just a projection of human psychic energies.

Caneman

Caneman, tonight's meeting in Lakeland was the most AMAZING healing service I've seen, ever. You must check it out if they offer it.

Todd reported that he went into heaven--while he was on the stage--and had some visions that he called out...he had a vision of Jesus walking into a hospital room and called out what he saw, a two-year-old dying girl with tubes in her nose. A woman came running up with a picture of a dying girl in a hospital just as he described, two years old with a tube in her nose, etc. The woman called the parents of the dying girl and she reportedly has made a recovery. WOW. He also said, "I see someone who has had hearing loss for 34 years." Then he said he wanted to give an impartation to all the pastors present tonight and God told him to commision two cities in the U.S., one being Baltimore, Maryland. A few minutes later a pastor from Baltimore came up and said he had been deaf in his right ear for 34 years exactly this night! Todd touched him and the man reported that he could hear.

About the OT Kabod, I am sure I've felt it too, Caneman. It is a heavy Presence of God that you could not mistake for anything else in the energetic/supernatural realm. I have felt it many times but not at the Lakeland meetings this weekend.

What I felt the first night at Lakeland was an intimacy with God that was so easy, so pure that I felt/knew as though anybody who merely crossed my mind would be touched by God.

Praise be to you, Lord Jesus Christ!!

Here's a news article from this morning which appeared on MSNBC NEWS describing the controversial Lakeland Revival.

http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.co...8/05/29/1075189.aspx

Very interesting, Shasha. Are you still out there? How are you doing?

No, I'm home and watching on God TV, was only there over Memorial weekend.

Tonight, Todd was near tears as he shared about how his greatest teaching is on the "secret place" and how he feels all of the favor in his life and the anointing in his ministry is a result of his pressing into this secret, Holy place with God. He shared that he hears a lot of accusations about his hype and "chasing miracles," but that he is really very hungry for God's love... described himself as "the hungriest person I know."

It seems a gift to to be hungry for God...

Hi Shasha,

quote:

You and Stephen ask a good question about whether it's HS or kundalini / personal energy that Todd’s using to create healing.

My personal question is not so much about Todd Bentley per se, more generally about charismatic phenomena/movements. His meetings are what we would call very "American" (don�t know if the Americans among you know what is meant by that ), so there may be an additional cultural factor playing a role here that makes it harder for me to discern.

Therefore I�d like to go back to the general topic. An important question here seems to be how to define the Holy Spirit. I tend to a rather broad view of it. (Some of) the "fruits of the Holy Spirit" can be found in almost everybody, in varying degree. If you see anything good in us as a trace of the Divine, then it�s not a far stretch to see it as Holy Spirit in action - again: in varying degrees. From this broad point of view, kundalini can be seen as just another way of expression of Holy Spirit - or maybe rather "Holy Spirit meeting with energetic blockages" (which might make for the kundalini-symptoms), that�s the view I tend to presently.

Several of the healings that are referred to as results of prayer and influence of the Holy Spirit can be seen also in other context, e.g. energetic methods like EFT, or those that work directly on the level of consciousness (no raisings from death, though, as far as I know ). Is this Holy Spirit at work, too? Might well be...

But this is all just a very vague understanding of mine.

@Stephen:

quote:

No doubt there is some sort of power emanating from Lakeland, even over the air waves. I felt it. But I just didn't trust it. It seems to me you have to wholly give yourself over to this. I just wasn't able to, and as soon as I closed myself off, the power in a sense was switched off.

The latter is quite natural, me thinks.

If you (or me) feel you have to trust "Todd Bentley", then of course you will not want to give yourself over to it/him. But trying to give yourself over to God, no matter what T.B. is emanating, you might meet with the real blocks against it. Looking at God, there�s nothing to lose. What I liked a lot about the charismatic seminar I was at was the constant referring to looking at Jesus, esp. in eucharistic adoration. This was WOW! Never felt it so strongly before.

Irene

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:
[qb] No, I'm home and watching on God TV, was only there over Memorial weekend.

Tonight, Todd was near tears as he shared about how his greatest teaching is on the "secret place" and how he feels all of the favor in his life and the anointing in his ministry is a result of his pressing into this secret, Holy place with God. He shared that he hears a lot of accusations about his hype and "chasing miracles," but that he is really very hungry for God's love... described himself as "the hungriest person I know."

It seems a gift to to be hungry for God... [/qb]

I have been watching it almost every night on TV for the last 4 weeks, it is awesome! I think Todd is much different than most of the charismatic/pentecostal type ministers because he goes to the secret place daily... I think he has already shared that he spends a quiet time of "soaking" in God's presence for about 3 hours per day (George Barna reported a few years ago that based on his national survey the average pastor in America spends 4 minutes in prayer every day)... you don't hear very many who talk about this, or even how to do this! His teaching on "The Secret Place" is pretty good (I got a hold of a few years ago), but there are better resources to lead you into the secret place. But I think his time in the secret place with Jesus has made him very sensitive to the presence of God, and this is where he has learned from the Holy Spirit how to minister in the annointing. Todd is definetily a uniquely gifted vessel, and the only person I am aware of who could step out in faith and boldness to be used of God to ignite a move like this...

Caneman

I watched a bit last night but I'm afraid I had to switch off. Todd was claiming that the Holy Spirit was fixing people's teeth, giving them gold teeth, making braces disappear and sorting crooked teeth. I mean, come on! Gold teeth! Who wants gold teeth? Only in America!

Let me give you my take on this, for what it's worth. Emphasis on healing is a false spirituality. Christ came and healed, yes, so did the diciples, and I don't deny the potential for healing at all today. But to concentrate on it, to make it the mark of a revival is a spiritual red herring. Here's how - the spiritual life is the life of the inner man. Our goal is holines, union with Christ, completenes and fulness in Him. To my mind sickness and suffering identify us with the crucifixion and allow is to symbolically and practically pass through death into resurrection life. Suffering takes us on the way of the cross. Sickness is not Satanically inflicted as these guys, including Todd, are most definitely claiming. This is a wrong teaching. The whole revival is based on a wrong teaching as far as I can see. Suffering is an oportunity to grow into perfection, to develop patience, tolerance, long suffering, meekness, humility, kindness etc etc - all true fruits of the Spirit (see Romans 5). Our way into the presence of God is through suffering, through crucifixion. I'm not necessarily talking about intense suffering or sickness, just as much as we can bare. Where is the spiritual element in healing? How is one able to learn and grow in the Spirit? This whole movement diverts people from a true spiritual path of inner growth, of which sickness and suffering are part.

As for resurrection, I have no doubt that Christ rose from the dead and inspired the other resurrections written in scripture. To us however, the relevance and power of that resurrection is applied to our inner selves. We die and rise again in our spirits, we move from darkness into light, from death into life. It is symbolic, but also real in the sense that we not only identify with Christ in resurrection life, but move into that life through the power of his actual death and resurrection. Insisting on literal resurrection as a mark of a healing ministry is a false spirituality based on too literal an application of scripture. I heard another of Todd's teaching, and all the events at the start of Acts were, to him, to be applied literally to us today. This gives him the basis for the signs and wonder, miracles and healings that he is claiming. But it's a wrong (and necessarily fundamentalist based) interpretation of scripture.

I'm very sceptical about the charismatic movement in general and this revival in particular because it is fundamentlist and literalist in character and derives its teaching from these positions. Wrong teaching in my book and, as a say, a diversion from the path of true spirituality.

He Stephen, healing goes hand in hand with preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God (which is the inner life in God and union with Him):

Mat 10:7-8 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give."

Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Caneman

Very interesting. I'd never heard of him before. After Googling around, I discover he is a charismatic contemplative. Who woulda thunk such a thing existed. Apparently he does this thing call soaking prayer for 3 hours a day. Groups of people lie around listening to New Agey music, and that's their time for contemplation. It has something to do with the Toronto Airport revival. He is also an admirer of Sadhu Sundar Singh.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek:
[qb] Very interesting. I'd never heard of him before. After Googling around, I discover he is a charismatic contemplative. Who woulda thunk such a thing existed. [/qb]

A charismatic contemplative...yeah, there's a few around...we tend to be more on the quiet side, right Phil?


Hey Derek! Nice to have you join the discussion. Christ's peace be with you!!

Stephen,

Francis MacNutt writes beautifully about the distinction between suffering and sickness (in The Power to Heal).

MacNutt, who's prayed for thousands, maybe 10s of thousands, writes:

Suffering is a part of life, pointing out to us the evil that is part of life. Some of that suffering is caused by sickness, to help us do something that will make us well...As one of the effects of original sin, it will remain with me in a fallen world,until I move on to another life when "He will wipe away all tears from their eyes" (Rv 21:4)...other sickness will be healed only when we stop sinning, both against ourselves and the larger community sense...Still other sicknesses that I and others suffer will remain, either because we lack the spiritual power to make our prayers more effective, or because...it can have a higher, redemptive purpose...

But I ask those of you who are preachers not to preach about suffering--and sickness in paticular--as if it were a blessing sent by God. I know that healing evangelists often preach as though God wants to heal everyone immediately...That preaching can cause confusion and damage among their ailing listeners, but it is closer to the gospel message of healing, and ultimately less harmful, than that of those preachers who speak as if endurance in sickness and not hope for healing were the Christian norm. p. 151-152.

Thank you. The blogs seems to be 80% skeptical and 20% supportive of this "Youtube Outpouring." I notice, though, that the supportive posters are the ones who have actually been there, while the skeptics haven't.

Some are calling it a revival. I don't know about the U.S., but in the UK it's been a long time since there was a large-scale revival. The last ones I know of are the Welsh Revival of 1904, and the Hebrides Revival of 1949-52.

I think there are just so many distractions nowadays. So few people spend hours and hours each day in prayer. Figures I've seen (though haven't been able to substantiate) suggest that even pastors spend only 8 minutes a day in prayer.