I too have my reservations about these things, especially the ordination of priests based on baptism of the Holy Spirit, which I find to be a highly dubious phenomena in the charismatic circles I've been around. For one thing, it's quite possible to be filled with the Spirit and exercising these quiter gifts that Phil mentions without a so-called "baptism", and to focus on the phenomena in this way undermines this.

No doubt there are extraordinary outpourings happening, but the Spirit's work can also be more subtle, developing and transforming a Christian over a longer period of time. To me, the baptism of the Holy Spirit happened at Pentecost and we're still living in the the good of that today. These "blasts" of the Spirit can actually be quite destabilising in the long run. The "impartations" I've witnesed and received have been nothing more than spiritual hits from a psychic vending machine, good to go but eventually in need of a top up.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] ...On the one hand, every baptized Christian has received the Holy Spirit and is blessed with certain charisms, even if they haven't spoken in tongues or been through a "Life in the Spirit" seminar. The tendency among charismatics has been to focus on "extraordinary charisms" like healing, prophecy, tongues, miracles, etc., while failing to acknowledge the more ordinary charisms of teaching, preaching, encouraging, administering, hospitality, mercy, knowledge, wisdom, helps, etc. that are alive and well everywhere....

[/qb]

Phil--

I agree with you totally on this...and I think the MacNutts would agree. It seems the focus on the dramatic gifts may be partly in response to the near-death of the whole healing ministry in the Church since it's early days.

There is also the issue that the gifts are not neatly packaged in separate boxes, as the mature healers have written about. God may gift some with extraordinary healing but they are still called to seek the gifts of wisdom / knowledge as to how, when, and why they use it, for instance. It's a whole character development issue and seeking God's perfect will, as you know.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] ...
That Vatican exorcist -- Fr. Amorth -- is very much an extremist when it comes to this topic, imo. He claims to have performed over 50,000 exorcisms, which, if you put the pencil to it, comes out to over 1,400 a year or over four per day (no days off) during his 34 years of priesthood. You as a therapist know there's no way to have 1,400 sessions a year -- not if you're doing your job right. Presumably, making the determination of possession requiring exorcism entails as much or more discernment as determining what kind(s) of psychopathology a person might have. I'm thinking there's something very wrong with either Fr. Amorth's numbers or his methods. He also seems to be suggesting that that "Harry Potter" books open one to demonic invasion. I think that's ridiculous.

Whatever the case, I'm glad to hear more priests and bishops are open to gifts of healing and are more attuned to the possibility of demonic activity. Let's just hope the pendulum doesn't swing to excess in the direction now of "a devil behind every problematic behavior." [/qb]

I don't know what Amorth is talking about...seems like an over-estimation unless he's doing exorcisms en masse (?) which seems unlikely for the reasons you state above.

As far as seeing a devil behind every bush, as you know, that kind of thinking might be the pendulum swinging from the opposite pole of all "that thinking is superstition" and can be soley understood using a medical/psychiatric model.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb] I too have my reservations about these things, especially the ordination of priests based on baptism of the Holy Spirit, which I find to be a highly dubious phenomena in the charismatic circles I've been around. For one thing, it's quite possible to be filled with the Spirit and exercising these quiter gifts that Phil mentions without a so-called "baptism", and to focus on the phenomena in this way undermines this.

No doubt there are extraordinary outpourings happening, but the Spirit's work can also be more subtle, developing and transforming a Christian over a longer period of time. To me, the baptism of the Holy Spirit happened at Pentecost and we're still living in the the good of that today. These "blasts" of the Spirit can actually be quite destabilising in the long run. The "impartations" I've witnesed and received have been nothing more than spiritual hits from a psychic vending machine, good to go but eventually in need of a top up. [/qb]

I know this is controversial and am not up on the theological debate on exactly when and how one is Baptized, but it seems to me there is such a thing as a personal Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is experienced as a point of transformation and an event from which one feels permenantly changed (i.e. "born again"). Furthermore, one feels passionately inspired to build Christ's church in a way that did not exist before the Baptism in spite of whatever prior connection one had with God.

The phychic hits which you refer to sound more like kundalini energy movements.

MacNutt's point about the need for a personal adult Baptism is to receive the power that is necessary to do the ministry of healing and deliverance. This is a crucial ingredient, we believe, for *that kind of work.* But not having a personal pentacostal experience does not mean one does not *have* the Holy Spirit...? He tells the (funny / ironic) story of how he was a young priest who was prayed over to receive the Holy Spirit and nothing happened. But the next day when he was prayed over by Agnes Sanford for a "release" of the Holy Spirit, he experienced the typical signs of being Baptised and felt the power and Grace to heal thereafter.

In his book, MacNutt notes (if I remember correctly) that Jesus' deciples were chosen,
educated,
ordained (in a sense?),
breathed up by the Risen Christ
and STILL Jesus told them
"wait until you receive the power."

It seems like a whole nuther ball-game.

Shasha, maybe we should have a thread on the meaning of "baptism of the Spirit." I agree that the experience is real and important.

I'm open to this personal baptism, Shasha. Again, most of my objections stem from what I would condider wrong practise, false claims and a lot of confusion about the difference between psychic energy (Kundalini) and Holy Spirit (mostly in fundamentalist charismatic circles. Francis McNutt has a Catholic grounding and seems a different kettle of fish altogether.)

As I've said before, a lot of people I've met who claim Holy Spirit baptism come across as proud - as if this baptism makes them special in some way, and as if those who don't have this baptism are lacking something. Your differentiating between "having" the Spirit and being "baptised" in the Spirit was helpful. Not everyone in the body of Christ needs this baptism to function effectually as a Christian, and many don't really want it as it represents a supernatural experience that is beyond their particular scope and personality. Their gifts are clearly functioning without it.

Some people on the other hand, seem to exhibit all sorts of healing charisms, tongues etc but lack the love, meekness and gentleness that are true marks of having the H/S fruitfully. As Paul says, if we don't have love, which is the greatest gift, we have nothing.

I've looked up and saw the Spirit above my head. I know the potential for a complete immersion. I also know that a heart can burn with love for the Lord without baptism. Perhaps a thread then on particular benefits and purposes of Holy Spirit baptism would be profitable.

One more thing. The benefits you've already mentioned - new birth transformation and passionate concern for the church - are already in evidence among a lot of Christians without baptism in the Spirit. I'm slighly puzzled by why one would need H/S baptism in particular for these transformtions, inspirations and passions to be in place.

Shasha:

One area of interest here for me is how those who perhaps over-identify with the baptism of the Spirit (perhaps in terms of sensate-based kundalini effects) deal with the unrecognized prospect of aridities during the Night of the Spirit. One could easily resist this graced and dark passage (which can go on for a long time) if not directed about its essential importance.

Stephen and w.c.--

All very good points, dear friends...

I like Phil's suggestion to start up a new thread on the meaning of the Baptism of the Spirit. (It's a little off this thread's main focus)

With the issue of Spirit baptism, seems we're hitting on a complex mixture of psychological, theological, and energy/ spiritual issues all in one topic! Praise God for you great minds!

I'd like to pull together some of the writings (and my thoughts) I have on this subject before I launch into opening a new thread. Of course, others may jump right in and start one up as they feel led. I appreciate the concerns you raise above, and you may choose to use any of your questions as a starting point.

I'm sure Phil has much experience and knowledge on this subject from which we can greatly benefit. I'm looking forward to it.

This (from the Board of Directors) saddens me no end, and I have to confess makes me quite angry:

http://www.freshfire.ca/

but it stands as an example of what can happen when these kundalini energies are unleashed without true Holy Spirit guidance. It's tragic, but in all honesty shows up these revivals for what they are. It happened with the Hindu gurus who came across and now its happening with the Christian charismatic revivalists.

I can't judge Todd Bentley because I know what I'm capable of myself, but it only serves to confirm my suspicions about the energy based nature of charismatic renewal. Kundalini is, after all, a potent sexual energy and these people are ill prepared for the upheavals it brings to body and mind.

Hi Stephen,

I just ran across this thread and was interested in why you may be attributing "fresh fire" to kundalini? That thought hadn't crossed my mind and I find it very interesting.

Love.

Dhyana,

It's just being sensitive to the energies at charismatic meetings and actually discerning what they are, instead of blindy attributing everything to the Holy Spirit. I've written previously on this thread and others about the major turmoil I've experienced after heavy blasts of this energy.

And have you noticed the rhetoric of these directors : "in the midst of great revival, the enemy has found a way into our camp." Anything to avoid actually looking at themselves and what was really happening at Lakeland.

Stephen,

I'm not sure why you are rushing to conclude that kundalini is responsible for Todd having some "affair" (emotional or otherwise) with a woman on his staff. Certainly, it's sad when a leader like Todd seems to be using such bad judgement. Most unfortunate for his family/children. Seems to me, we can't really know, without some inside scoop and knowledge, what led to his behavior.

As for the Hindu gurus I know, there is a big difference here. The eastern gurus who have 'fallen' in our eyes in terms of morally repugnant behavior don't see themselves as immoral. They don't apologize, they don't care. They behave as if they are beyond morality. I doubt that is the case with Todd. And his stepping down and seeking counsel is a sign of his being accountable.

As for the comment about the "enemy" in our camp, I don't have a problem with that as I believe they regard the enemy broadly as anything that pulls away from Christ's love and right conduct--including inner demons/temptations, pride, impulsivity, selfishness,etc. I don't think those folks regard the enemy in this case as soley some external force outside of our personalities.

Shasha,

It's not even so much that kundalini was responsible for his behaviour (although given its sexual power it wouldn't surprise me if k was involved somewhere), more that his behaviour points to the nature of the energy he was involved with ie.not the Holy Spirit.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb]It's just being sensitive to the energies at charismatic meetings and actually discerning what they are, instead of blindy attributing everything to the Holy Spirit. [/qb]

Hi, Stephen,

I've been admiring your explanation for the last day now! I'm not that sensitive myself, but now I see what you mean.

In trying to understand what kundalini is, I've come up with the expression, "basic life-energy that has been repressed and that now emerges." Would you say that is correct?

Derek.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek:
[qb]

In trying to understand what kundalini is, I've come up with the expression, "basic life-energy that has been repressed and that now emerges." Would you say that is correct?

Derek. [/qb]

Yes, that's a good way of understanding it, especially if we keep in mind that our "basic life energy" includes a spiritual dimension -- that of the soul. Transpersonal philosopher Michael Washburn takes this approach, calling kundalini the energy of the "dynamic ground" of consciousness. See http://members.tripod.com/pbernste/life3.htm for an interview with Washburn. I made use of his approach in my book on kundalini. See http://shalomplace.com/res/ground.html for a schema from the book.

Yes, Derek, absolutely. And its kinda like the nature of the spirituality or faith one has (Hindu, Christian charismatic etc) imprints itself on the energy, so that one's expression and behaviour become ingrained in it, giving one the impression that, as a Christian, the energy is indeed the HS. It's very much a collective mentality too which only serves to confirm the false impression.

I had lasar eye surgery this week (struggling to write this). It's amazing how much God was involved in the healing process, not in any quick fix way, but just there, present and caring. A few days before the op, I was on a train and I noticed this young woman chatting with her friend. I immediately thought what a lovely manner she had, and what a lovely face, and thought she looked such a kind, caring person. The following Monday I was in the clinic, only to find that this young woman was my nurse. Small signs like these have really confirmed God's healing presence and shown the kind of healing I receive from Him. He's there caring for us, tending to us and soothing us through lives natural processes. I'm glad to go through these processes with Him, painful as they are at times, because of that sesne of His love and the patience and hope we learn through them.

quote:

Originally posted by w.c.:
[qb] Another way to look at this is the commonplace psychological immaturity among fundamentalists, of any stripe. I have a small section of my library that includes some of Christian fundamentalism's best attempts to circumvent psychotherapy, and I'm guessing the view of this group on such things is equally narrow.... [/qb]

There is a growing awareness in the Church for the overwhelming need to heal from childhood abuse, trauma, deprivation, etc. utilizing prinicples of psychotherapy. A number of ministries have popped up to meet this need and promote what they call "inner healing."

Of course, I've mentioned the MacNutt's healing ministry which recognizes developmental issues in the formation of emotional problems. Other psychological healing models that are Christ-centered are Theophostics by Ed Smith, the Life Model by James Wilder, Unbound by Neal Lozano, and the Emotionally Healthy Church by I don't remember his name, to name a few.

There are so many others. There is a sweeping movement in the church to bring healing from trauma/abuse and to recognize the source of this kind of pain and it's consequences to the personality as more than or apart from some external demon. I don't know about Fresh Fire/Todd Bentley's take on this. They don't have the education and training that professionals do, but with the Holy Spirit, their effectiveness and reach will surely outstrip any other methods.

As for the addictive atmosphere and Stephen's comments, sure. I can see this kind of confusion/misinterpretation about energy and it's meaning at revival meetings. Same goes for bars, dance clubs, and football stadiums--wherever people feel the energy of excitment of some kind.

Still, in the midst of all that, there is the Holy Spirit which does come to gatherings where the God of Israel and of our Lord Jesus Christ is worshipped. He tells us, "Where two or more of you are gathered..."

Seems to me we need to consider the 'interaction effect'--the relationship between the individual human heart and the larger emotionally/energetically laden gathering--to understand what one receives from, as well as gives to, a revival.

Christ's peace to you, dear friends,
Shasha

" . . . bars, dance clubs, and football stadiums"


Ah, the good ol' days . . . .

Hey Phil, how about another thread????

Now for some good news.

I want to share about an unusual cell-phone healing that took place recently that has built up my faith—and hopefully yours too.

A few weeks ago I was sitting in my favorite coffee shop and called a friend up on my cell phone. She is a missionary and was getting on a plane for China the next day. She shared with me about her terrible state of mind. She said she felt some vague but powerful dread and anxiety and had been suffering like this for a few days. I asked if she wanted to go to a quiet place in her house and I could lead her in a relaxation prayer. She said OK.

I began to pray and immediately felt a tightening in my chest and obstruction in my breathing. I asked, “Are you having a hard time breathing?” She said, “I just took some asthma medicine 5 minutes ago.” I felt this mild offense rise up in me that this thing was hurting my friend, so I said matter-of-factly, “I just command this obstruction to be gone now, in the Name of Jesus.” Suddenly, it was as if somebody had opened a portal over my head and power came crashing down over me. There is no way to explain this energy/power and I've only felt it in response to praying for healing. The force of this energy was so strong, I had to put my phone down and was reeling. I said something in tongues, profusely gushing praise and astonishment (I think) beyond my control. After several seconds, I got back on the phone and my friend said, “WOW, as soon as you spoke those words, I felt this pressure come out of my mouth and had to let out 3 huge yawns, like supernaturally enlarged yawns and whatever it was just left! I feel like it’s completely gone!” Her roommate called me an hour later to thank me and report that this woman was now acting like a new person, set free of her anxiety and ready to go.

This sortof surprised me because I don’t usually walk around feeling like I have authority over sickness/ demons, but once in a while I see God move in power and folks set free—right before my eyes (or even long distance) ; - )

Praise Jesus! He’s still healing the sick…As Bill Johnson puts it, the Book of Acts is still being written.

With my therapy patients who are open to prayer, lately I have been praying like this:

“Father, we bow to the healing ministry of Lord Jesus….We bow our heads before you Jesus, You Who had compassion on all and healed all those who came to You.”

Good morning to you all, dear friends.

Mt-- your dream of w.c. This happens, I find, when one determines to pray for somebody.

In my experience, I have learned to be careful to pray only what/how the Lord leads, as far as I can know. I've found that merely thinking of somebody persistently will often draw something of their 'vibration' to me. Know what I mean?

As I've also felt led to pray for you folks the last few weeks, I've had two encounters of you, Mt. Last night was the second, and more powerful. In a mostly asleep state, I literally experienced you, holding us in prayer. This incredible Love was pouring out of you. It was as you've described on another thread, an unbearable, unspeakable, pure Love. No words can describe.

I knew it was your intention to share love, but it was God's Love. I have experienced people praying for me many, many times, and I am very grateful and humbled by their petitioning the Lord for my sake.

Many thanks for your loving heart to share!

Praise God and His compassion for us.

May the God of Mercy and Compassion bring us all deeper into the Life of Christ Jesus.

Thank you, Shasha, for this story. I'm not ready to see myself as loving, but thank you.
Only recently I've experienced those impulses to pray for people. I have a hard time believing in the efficacy of prayer - so thanks for your story about your friend's healing. Maybe you could say sth else that'd help me believe that this "really works"?

Despite my lack of faith (I didn't see any "evidence" of effects of prayer, and I slowly believe in what I can't see or touch, I confess...), I follow those impulses. Suddenly, I think about some person, and I feel this flame of prayer in me. This is amazing. It's like HS is praying through me. Sometimes I pray more out of my own will - do you think it's not good?

I also experienced kind of insight along with those prayers. For example, a certitude that someone needs help or has some difficulties. Sometimes those are even complete strangers, at church or some place else, I look at them and I start praying for them. I can't check this or prove this, but they come spontaneously, so I pray for those people. It's wonderful that you can "feel" that someone prayed for you. I sometimes think that perhaps prayers of many people I don't even know helped me to get to the point where I'm now, and I take it for granted... So I pray back, when HS leads me to.
Ok, I think I'll start another thread about that

Yes, God will teach you if you really feel prompted to learn about prayer.

There's a lot to say on this subject. I can't respond to all your questions, comments right now, but will addres your first issue, that you repeat on the other thread:

"I didn't believe in prayer very much. I even have hard time to understand theologically how prayer can "work".

By "work," you mean that you don't understand how prayers can be effective in producing what you pray about? Jesus told his disciples to pray for the sick, in fact to "ask the Father anything in My Name..." About 1/3 of the recorded ministry of Jesus involves His healing the sick.

"These signs will follow those who beleive, in my Name they shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover." Not only did he expect us to replicate his miracles of healing but told us "You will do greater things than these."

St. Paul tells us that one of the gifts given to the Body of Christ to build her up is the "gifts of healing," that's gifts, plural, so there are many kinds of healing. Many believe that the healing ministry is about destroying the works of the devil, which is what it means to be a New Creation, that we now have the capacity to take dominion over evil spirits. Many believe it should be a natural part of Christian living, not an exceptional thing, but commonplace. I agree.

The aposotles demonstrated healing gifts. And there are beaucoup d'accounts of Christians with this gift. Ever heard of John G. Lake, Smith Wigglesworth, Kathryn Kuhlman? Heidi Baker encountered God at the Toronto outpouring, was slain in the Spirit for a few days, woke up with a clear mission to set up churches in Africa. She apparently goes into villages and asks them to bring her their deaf, heals them all. Many people are even raised from death in her churches.

But for the true skeptic, nothing works to prove healing miracles unless they experience it directly, over and over again.

I'll get back to some of your other points later...

much peace to you, in our Lord,
Shasha

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
I'm not ready to see myself as loving, but thank you. ...

As I explained, it was not your love that was pouring out, but your intention to love that pulled forth God's love that you were 'aiming' at us, so to speak. That's not to say you are not a loving person, in addition, but that's not what I felt/saw. Of course, my experience is neither some accurate barometer.

I said no words can describe this Love that I saw you holding up for me and others at SP, but I'm gonna try here anyway. It was this formless mass of Love. It had a kind of solidity, super-density, impenetrable, immovable. It had a kind of deep blackness too like you describe elsewhere. What is it? IDK, except it was unbearable Love, that's all I can hold on to.

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:...Sometimes I pray more out of my own will - do you think it's not good?

I can't really say what is good for you to pray. From what I've learned one grows in the ability to discern between the more willful, "soulish," type prayers from what the Holy Spirit is prompting. Soulish prayer may start out innocent but can grow very destructive if you continue to persist in a self-willed agenda. I'm guessing, as you mature, more is expected in right prayer.

One night I determined to pray earnestly for something and decided this would be the night when I'd really mean it! That I was gonna git my way. Sometime in the middle of that night, the Father woke me up and rebuked me rather sternly. If I put this clear impression into words, it would be this:

"Don't you EVER pray for that again. I will take care of it and not because you asked."

True story.