Asher, I think you missed my point about St. Francis. You also seem to be contradicting points you've made in other posts about the value of the intellect. No one here (or in Christianity, for that matter) has ever said that the intellect can reason its way to the experience of God or that its concepts are God, thoughts are God, etc. My only point above what that the intellect must be given its due, and in a broader sense, I've been speaking for the value of kataphatic spirituality, which was definitely the way for St. Francis.
Not sure why you felt a need to quote Ramakrishna to us. He's not saying anything that Christian mystics like St. John of the Cross wouldn't say, although he is using a different vocabulary.
It�s completely understandable, Asher, as I�m well aware (well, sort of) of how bombastic, dogmatic and just plain obnoxious I am at times (most times?). But my intent (at least when I�m not talking politics) is to be playful with ideas. I fully acknowledge I have more to learn then to teach so my promptings (my drawing of contrasts and vague stimulations) are meant to keep the ball rolling or to nuance out nuances from the Nabob of Nuance (hope that�s the correct title, JB) as well as others. And just to have some fun.
Brad, I think if one has a genuine spiritual teacher, he/she can intuitively tell you what is happening.
Of that I have no doubt.
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001
I don't know whether this belongs here or not, and I'm not done reading it yet so if there's anything extraordinarily unorthodox in it, well, you've been warned. But this looks like an interesting article/interview:
Washburn -- a philosopher who integrates psychology with religion -- asserts that who we ordinarily think we are (our ego) is only a part of our experience. The vaster part he calls the Dynamic Ground, in which he unites what others call our unconscious, our instincts, our libido, and the spiritual forces that inspire us. In other words, Washburn insists that Jesus, Freud, Buddha, and even medieval alchemy were all offering us, as closed-minded egos, ways to open up to the realm of the unconscious and spirit -- even though those pioneers and their followers may not have agreed with each other's ways of expressing that understanding.
Further, Washburn wants us to appreciate that we can hardly avoid a spiritual life eventually, because the ego causes its own misery and despair if it remains closed to the world it has made unconscious. The ever-so-common "mid-life crisis" is closely related to the ancient's "dark night of the soul". What's happening in such cases, explains Washburn, is the opening of the ego to the forces it had closed itself off from, in its earlier necessary stage of development.
quote:
PB: Michael, you assert, more forcefully than mainstream psychologists, that forming a strong ego is not sufficient for us as adults. So instead of regarding people's search for higher meaning as a luxury, a childish self-absorption, or a sign of abnormal personality, you say that such a search is normal. The road may be difficult and at times confusing, but it is a normal, necessary progression. Why do you think this happens? And how did you come to that view?
MW: I think there are two reasons, and you have touched upon one of them. The goals of adult development, as most of us pursue them, advertise more than they deliver. We pursue the course of ego-identity development, we pursue relationships, we pursue careers, we pursue accomplishments. And I think that implicit in those pursuits is the assumption that if we are successful there, then we will be fulfilled in life.
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001
Okay, I'll do any further discussion of this over on the false self thread...after, first, going out and getting a degree in psychology so that I can understand your most straightforward, erudite, but still complex explanation.
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001
And I forgot to thank you for hosting a place such as this where these things could be aired. I came here again to see how you described the issue of depression. I was thinking about it today - it's not depression so much as living as a computer with the screen saver on, or a xerox machine with the 'energy saver' on. The motor isn't running all of the time anymore, so the actual body/mind becomes sort of slothful.
Posts: 5 | Location: Connecticut | Registered: 18 March 2006
Originally posted by Phil: [qb] .... Even after over 15 years, however, I'm still adjusting to this phenomenon and can imagine that some who've come upon this state would consider it a "loss of self," even a psychopathology of some kind. I do not consider it such, but (perhaps) an example of apathaea or profound detachment that the desert fathers thought so valuable. There are many positive consequences which ensue--none the least of which is that one isn't getting pushed around by emotions any more. Also, when I don't over-work (especially mentally), there is a subtle flow of bliss buoying up my heart--the ananda of the Hindus, and the joy which Christ promised. Nevertheless, as I say, it takes some getting used to and can feel like psychic death, in many ways.
Comments? Experiences? [/qb]
++++++++ Phil, I know this state as a form of Enlightenment & non-duality. It is also sought for the profound state of physical balance within the body.
Are you suggesting here that this state may be part of the natural process of Kundalini. Therefore this state could be experienced in any belief system.
If this is the case then it would explain many things for me. Particularly that there are states that indeed seem to be natural to humans.
But beliefs systems understand this very differently. So for some beliefs this state can mean the development of siddha powers. For another the Heart of Compassion. And for another Union with The Heart of Christ.
Ajoy, I think it's very likely that what St. John of the Cross called the Night of the Senses in the general sense happens to people in all religious traditions. That Night transitions one to the apatheia we're referring to, here -- a state of detachment which enables one to direct one's life more in accord with one's values and decisions. So apatheia, we might say, is something of a foundational state for living a deep and mature spiritual life.
Where it goes from here is anyone's guess. Some seem to pass the rest of their lives in this state, enjoying the inner freedom and something of an enlightenment consciousness, if they develop their attention in that direction. For others, it can also lead to a new mystical contemplation of God; that part is up to God's grace, of course.
