johnboy, thanks for your meaningful thought. I understand how the mind misjudges and misdiagnose the actual event. In my experience my mind comes with many ideas and suggestions, I listen but I don't take it seriously. My strong trust is grounded on my Spirit/higher being. It always surprised me when it appears with its great power and energy. Via its power it gives me knowledge and wisdom. In my experience those things which you mentioned above, WALK and SEEING, I realize my mind has no the capacity to identify them but my Spirit teaches me by experiencing it. The mind can only see after not before. The mind can't tell me what will happen tomorrow in my spiritual life but my Spirit through experience given me knowledge and then the mind picked it up but not before. Important to note, the knowledge/wisdom is not the property of the mind. The mind after it picked up the already processed knowledge can claim as its own property, so we have to be careful here. Otherwise we are in a spiritual pride.

I just had a flash of inspiration (which means
spirit-in) about making contact with the soul. It occurred to me whilst reading The Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom. (did not understand it
in 1988.)

What professor Bloom was seeing in his students
was not just impoverished minds but impoverished souls. What Merton has done for me over and over again is introduce me to an experience of soul. Look at all the books now such as Care of the Soul, Seat of the Soul and Soul Stories, Chicken Soup for the Afghan War Draft Resister's Soul and the Pro-Choice Democratic Candidate's Soul Witness the drumming circles and Promise Keepers, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings.

What I see is a collective realization that our souls and minds are impoverished from lack of
a nutritious diet. Could this be the purpose of losing the affective ego and letting go of neurosis, to have an experience of SOUL?

caritas,


michael

<*))))><

Just reflecting back, here, a few statements made recently that I resonated with:

Johnboy: So, I would describe the loss of the affective ego as an energy inversion whereby the emotions and feelings and affective life don't so much energize our behaviors by initiating them but rather energize our behaviors by reinforcing them. It seems that this state could be effected all of a sudden through some precipitating event or could arise through time and a habit of virtue.

I think that's a very good way of putting things, including the possible reasons for the development of this condition.

w.c.: When this happens, or when I allow it to happen, there is little if any residual memory/emotion as the trauma has healed and the emotional drama has resolved. In its place is just the ability to be in the present moment, feeling more connected inside my body, as though my mind were throughout my body, especially my chest, and with much less internal dialogue in my head, or less drawn into it.

Yes, that connects as well. It's fascinating to hear how your practice of focusing helps you to work through some of your early wounds and deficits to come to more wholeness. This points up a promising pathway--working in concert with prayer--to come into this new place of freedom.

mysticmichael: (On Merton, at the end of his life.) Here is a portrait of someone who is really getting over his "stuff," his self concept. No wonder the Tibetans told him he was "very close" to enlightenment.

Right. This dis-identification with self-concept is part of my experience of the loss of the affective ego. In my kundalini book I describe it as a severing of the bond between attention and self-concept, so that attention no longer tries to "find itself" in the mirror of self-concept. It's hard to describe how that works, but it does feel very disorienting at first.

JB, good reflections on the importance of keeping moving on and of discerning the kinds of hurts and pains being dealt with.
One of the chief obstacles to advancing in the spiritual life, then, is to gain a certain clarity of vision regarding the route to sanctity or to psychological integration (routes that are much intertwined) and then acting as if the vision itself is the attainment. . .
- I plead guilty! I've done this at times. Nevertheless, I do believe one's vision of the spiritual life is very important and knowledge of some of the usual twists and turns in the road can help one accept one's experiences. What's truly disconcerting is when you seem to have driven off the map! I've often felt that way with respect to the affective ego business.

Grace: During meditation even during a deep meditation my mind is calm but it doesn't stop to move, it asks various questions like what kind of light is it? what kind of energy is it? Is it our universe? I don't cooperate with it but I see it as part of universe floating like a leaf.

Once the flow of affectivity is diminished, the mind is no longer triggered by this information and one can explore its domain . . . how attention and mind interact, for example. We can also learn how the mind actually tries to generate emotions to reinstate something of the old identity. This contrivance becomes seen for what it is, however, and comes to pass. But the mind needs *something* to help it understand what's going on and to cooperate. Here, again, the importance of a vision of the spiritual journey; also, the importance of a theological vision.

w.c., your schema does make sense and seems similar to one I've posted here (needs a bit of editorial work, I see). Jim Arraj's schema on this page might be helpful as well.

(oops, I see there's more to your post now, w.c.)
With developmental deficits, affective attachment to memory is particularly strong, since the organism doesn't have the conscious signalling experience of connection with the subconscious which tells it it is whole (relative to the true self "s" experience). However, the organism is also informed by the collective unconscious which already knows/intimates what the needed experiences are, since all such experiences are already templated in the spiritual world. Hence the attraction of many wounded people to various spiritual practices . . . oh, if we only knew . . .
- Very rich and depthful insights! I think you're making some helpful distinctions between the lot of those who have serious developmental deficits to contend with and others, like myself, who seemed to have the usual, garden-variety neuroses and bouts with the angst.

re: It always surprised me when it appears with its great power and energy. Via its power it gives me knowledge and wisdom. In my experience those things which you mentioned above, WALK and SEEING, I realize my mind has no the capacity to identify them but my Spirit teaches me by experiencing it. The mind can only see after not before. The mind can't tell me what will happen tomorrow in my spiritual life but my Spirit through experience given me knowledge and then the mind picked it up but not before. Important to note, the knowledge/wisdom is not the property of the mind.

Amen, Grace. I believe it was in that very same lecture that Merton noted that the spiritual path and the path of scientific breakthroughs is analogous. Specifically, the steps are: 1) We find an issue, sort through it and set about to solve it. 2) We grapple and grapple with it until we realize that it is virtually irresolute, unsolvable, beyond us, too difficult. 3) We let go and move on. 4) Sometimes, years later, the solution comes to us in an instant, in a flash.

Nothing very profound here. We've all used this apporach in balancing our checkbooks, eh? But the point is that that is how our human natures are constructed and that that is how our unconscious and conscious minds and spirits seem to interface.

Seeing after not before is axiomatic for the spiritual mapping of the journey. Others' journeys, even those of the great mystical doctors, let's say the Carmelites like John of the Cross and Teresa of Jesus, can give us touchpoints for the journey, indications that we are on the road, but they have no predictive value. The same is true with Ignatian and sanjuanian discernment such as re: consolation and desolation, maybe even such as regarding loss of affect, depression, acedia, beginnings of contemplation -- where we are moreso discerning retrospectively and not so much being guided prospectively.

Finally, BINGO re: this wisdom as not being a property of the mind even though it works very much in concert with the mind. The contemplative gaze in love transcends our cognitive and discursive faculties and penetrates through to the Divine Essence, actually communicating and relating to God's essential nature, a nature that is, in principle, incomprehensible.

We must be careful, however, in confusing incomprehensible with unintelligible. If these experiences were unintelligible and God was unintelligible, this forum wouldn't be possible, huh?

pax,
jb

Another Mertonesque thought: We are moving toward an existential realization of how critical to our spiritual survival prayer really is. This realization is attained when we feel our need for prayer as acutely as we would feel the need for a breath when underwater.

That is my crude rendering from memory. I think this has something to say to us all whether we are called to discursive mediation, lectio, meditatio, oratio, contemplatio, operatio or what have ya. Whatever our prayer gift as led by the Spirit, it is to be engaged with the sense of critical and acute and urgent need that affirms our radical dependence and perennial state of existential crisis.

Now, don't get Merton wrong. This is all dialectical. One moves into crisis to lose crisis. One loses self to gain self. First, there is a mountain. Then, there is no mountain. Then, there is. One recognzies one's radical dependency to move to place of radical trust. One experiences one's emptiness and abject poverty to realize one's utter fullness. One moves into paradox and pain and contradiction to realize that, whatdaya know, all is well.

This is something re: the loss of self that is affirmed by the Sufi (Islamic)and the Hasidic (Jewish) mystics and that Merton, building on Buber as well as the Sufis, so well understood.

So, too, with human affects and desires. John of the Cross speaks of disordered appetites and Ignatius speaks of inordinate desires. It is not the appetite or desire we seek to eradicate, ultimately, but through proper ascticism and renunciation, we lose our emotional energy that intitiates so many of our behaviors (both virtue and vice) only to regain it to reinforce our virtues. Think of Ignatian discernment re: consolation and desolation, for example, and of how the different spirits console or afflict us, variously, as we either cooperate with Grace or backslide.

This dialectic is working, I believe, with the affective ego. Now, there may be something very deeply analogous going on with spiritual consolations and desolations and psychological affects that is not completely identical. This could account for how psychologically developmentally deformative influences might intefere/interact with spiritually transformative processes. This is no easy nut to crack and might profoundly influence with what facility one moves through an existential crisis to the experience of no-crisis-after-all. IOW, a spiritual emergence issue that gets foisted upon someone may not achieve its dialectical goal of teaching one to breathe underwater but could, for all practical purposes, drown a person.

When He knew for certain only drowning men could see Him, He said all men shall be sailors, then, until the sea shall free them.

jb

continuing with Merton

Merton speaks of a Sufi scholar, who draws many parallels to psychoanalysis, which is to say who sees the therapy process as analogous to the spiritual journey.

If in therapy our primary concern is the resolution of unresolved subconscious conflicts, then Sufism might be thought of in the same way, only on a deeper level.

In therapy and normal individuation, we are resolving certain conflicts, the resolutions of which 1) take us from an infantile level, take us from the merely instinctual animal to a human type of being where our cognitive and affective development is concerned 2) then further take us and adapt us to successful social and cultural beings.

Many struggle at the first level, such as with an Oedipus complex, by way of example, staying Momma's boys their entire life, but most get through it to the second level of struggle, some falling prey to escapes from the difficult realities of social-cultural life. AA is an example of a good way to deal with such evasions, helping primarily by providing motives to change, wise to the fact that one has to want to change in order to change and no one can do it for us. This is pretty much where conventional therapy stops, helping one deal with one's neurotic evasions of social responsibility.

This, however, is insufficient for bringing about the general honesty required to go deeper and to become an authentic human who has faced life's fundamental challenges, life's BIGGER problems, gaining life's existential awareness.

What are these BIG PROBLEMS? 1) continuity vs discontinuity - death 2) creativity - having a life that is meaningful, a presence that makes a difference.

What are the mistakes that even analysts/therapists make here? What mistakes are made by us as individuals at this level? We treat these issues as if they were problems of social adaptation (that second level we talked about). IOW, if you are esteemed by your society or in a particular cultural milieu, then you've conquered these problems, your presence not only has made a difference but lives on, in a manner of speaking. WRONG! This "solution" leads people into a further evasion from a truly meaningful life. This blueprint is wrong and must be torn up and thrown away. [Think here of our affective reward system and not only what vices are reinforced by certain emotions but also by what so-called virtues are being reinforced by our range of emotions. There needs to be a rewiring.]

What is called for, rather, is a BREAKTHROUGH into existential awareness. IOW, we recognize that this social esteem and instinctual control we have gained is MEANINGLESS, not meaningless, to be sure, for our functioning in ordinary life, but certainly in terms of life's ultimate meaning. {Here Merton recommends Viktor Frankl.]

So, from this deeper level, our social success is meaningless. On one hand, though, it is great and necessary, but, otoh, it is TOTALLY NUTS!

How do we get in touch with what is needed on the deeper level? Through the Psalmist is one way, for the deeper level whether praying the mad, glad or sad psalms is always GOD.

The CROSS is the demonstration of this struggle, the realization of this conflict in Jesus, a conflict between the establishment of the religion, such as in society, on one hand, and the realization of authentic religion, such as in one's heart, otoh. It REJECTS the silly notion of "Keep the rules and there you've got all the answers," which Merton calls a wooden nickel. It similarly rejects: "Don't keep the rules," which is a stupid form of the same silly game.

The ultimate solution to our biggest subconscious unresolved conflicts, our existential questions, is experiencing our rootedness in God, God in our very hearts. Death loses its significance as an end because we are already finalities, already ends unto ourselves because of our being-in-God, being-in-love, which is sufficient unto itself with no further reason or justification. Our creativity is found in our issuing forth from the Creator and not in anything we do to gain social approval or cultural amenities. The obligational has become aspirational. One then studies and prays, fastening and binding one's spirit to God, clinging to God, after the manner I wrote about previously, needing prayer as badly as one who is under water needs a breath. Then, in all we see and experience, God is present, and we don't at all take seriously the self we have to be to operate in society, the role playing, the best things in life not being demanded by us but received a pure gift from God FOR ME, who lets God be Himself in me, when my false self has vanished.

The old emotional programming, that was even formative and not deformative, must be re-wired, in order to move on to the deeper level of a human being-in-love-with-God. Hence the dark Nights. Hence, the transformation of the affective ego as we move from a false to a true self.

pax,
jb

"But the mind needs *something* to help it understand what's going on and to cooperate."

Yes Phil, I understand the importance of mind's need to know and rationalize. We read, write and communicate as we do in this forum. It is one way of fulfilling the need of the mind. But what I'm talking about is during meditation or during the actual moment of meditation where the divine power is in full swing, in my case, it is not possible to cooperate even if the mind insist.

re: The old emotional programming, that was even formative and not deformative, must be re-wired, in order to move on to the deeper level of a human being-in-love-with-God. Hence the dark Nights. Hence, the transformation of the affective ego as we move from a false to a true self.

continuing -

Hence, what Merton is describing is our social persona, which must die. True enough, our formation from the animal-instinctual to the social-cultural self is required, is necessary for the journey. In fact, we cannot surrender this self to the Cross, which is to say, to the existential crisis, until we have fully come into possession of same.

The existential crisis, then, involves a confrontation of the I with the not I , of the true self with the false self, and, when it is upon us, everything we see and observe and relate to in our existence is then seen through the lens of this crisis, of this Cross.

For society-at-large, then, the Gospel is this lens. The problem is that we have talked about the Cross so much, about the Gospel so much, that we have, in some sense, trivialized it and robbed it of its profound and radical significance for our individual lives and our lives in community. While in this crisis, however, we come to realize that the reason the world has so many huge problems -- socially, culturally, politically, economically -- is because of people, people like me who are living on a phony, superficial level of existence, out of contact with our true source, Who is God, alone.

The ultimate idolatry, then, is our self. So, we take this socially-formed self and crucify it and it is not like going to a movie or coming into an Internet discussion forum but is, rather, much more like walking into a fire.

The reward system, the reinforcement mechanisms, the old emotional programs, which worked so well for those of us who made it through our formative years with more formation, reformation and information than deformation, must be transformed. This mirrors, in fact, how our loving knowledge of God no longer comes through our senses, no longer is accompanied by sensible consolations, but is a direct communication with the Divine Essence that is beyond our discursive faculties. All of this is a massive upheaval of the way things have been for us --- cognitively, affectively, morally even, for it is no longer a mere following of the rules that brings one closer to God, although that part of our formation was absolutely necessary. This is a huge project and undertaking, multilayered and multitextured and quite unique for each individual, although we have discussed the touchpoints and the mapping of this journey.

The soul now approaches the God, Who needn't approach, Who dwells within, and the heart remains restless that has not made God its all. Rooted in God in radical trust and surrender, a new reward and reinforcement system gets set in place, where Love of self for sake of self has been transcended by love of God for sake of self, which has been transcended by love of God for sake of God, 'til, finally, our true self emerges and we love that self for the sake of God. The dialectic takes us back into self-possession, paradoxically, by self-surrender. This has cognitive, affective and moral aspects.

This is why we are here.

pax,
jb

The Bible itself is a treasure trove replete with case histories of spiritual formation, in spite of stubborn resistance.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were deceitful con artists and so much so that the stereotypical image of the conniving Jew persists to this day. God arranged many tests and spiritual events to make them into strong men of faith and integrity.

Joseph went into prison as an innocent to learn patience and be tested.

Moses spent forty years in the desert for preparation and another forty wandering with his stiffnecked followers. (I wonder if George Bush is thinking about Moses)

King David, a man after God's own heart, went through many battles and testings and depression as part of his formation, as well as sexual scandal and family strife in his fifties.
(I wonder if Bill Clinton is thinking about David)


Jonah paid the price of resisting God's call and more depression after obeying the call.

Isaiah went through a spiritual burnout phase by the Brook Cherith and Jeremiah's whole ministry seemed to be burnout. The Babylonian captivity was the entire nation's opportunity to experience loss of the affective ego. (They missed many opportunities prior to this) I wonder if America is thinking about the Babylonian captivity


Yep, the Good Book is full of firstrate case histories

caritas,

michael


<*))))><

Excellent points, Michael, and what comes to mind with respect to adulterers and murderers like both King Herod and King David, is what, ultimately, makes the difference between our going Herod's route or that of David?

To a certain extent, all that society asks by way of reformation is that we be rehabilitated into a good social persona, that we function well in our interpersonal dealings -- politically, econmomically, socially and culturally. IOW, society asks that we follow the rules, that we obey the law. Adherence to the Law is what was required of these Old Testament persons, in accordance with the Old Covenant. David became a good man and a great king by meeting these standards. He became his true self, the psalmist, when he went deeper in his relationship to God.

So, in its very essence, the Old Covenant very much corresponds to that second level of development, that which pertains to our socialization, and, although there were certain prophecies and foreshadowings, the crosses borne by these peoples were not the same as THE CROSS. Certainly, there must have always been some opportunity for humans on earth to partake of the transformative process effected by Jesus for once and for all through his birth, life, passion, death and resurrection. Indeed, many did undergo such radical transformation, especially, one might suspect, someone like David, the Psalmist, who points the way to Jesus, to the Father, in the Spirit.

At the same time, the explicit announcement of the New Testament, the proclamation of the Good News, the living out of the Gospel, of the Kerygma, through the Cross, marked an existential crisis at a global level for ALL PEOPLES, and played itself out as, not a total renunciation but, as a total surpassing of the old way. This is directly analogous to the death to self that is called for on the journey of each individual but involved a type of death for the People of God as a whole, who were being called to a new level of intimacy.

Again, we invoke, as individuals, because we have been convoked, as an entire People of God. We are called as a People and respond, radically alone (in many respects), as individuals.

Another lesson that is taught about David by Louis Evely (whom Phil will fondly recalled) is That Man Is You , which is to say: what is wrong with the world is ME.

What happens as we make the turn and drop the persona, which, again, was formatively necessary, is that we seek enlightenment out of compassion for the world, which constantly suffers our unenlightened selves. No longer are we in search of consolation or sensible positive affect because Perfect Love is its own reward, is totally unconditional, entirely kenotic.

We lay down our false selves, not for our own benefit, not because we are tired of the pain it causes us, but because of the pain we are transmitting to our loved ones, to the world. Any pain that is not thusly transformed, however neurotic or psychotic or emotional or idiopathic, we transmit to others. We seek to be rid of this pain that we may desist from transmitting it to others. Perfect Love and Perfect Contrition are inextricably bound up. It is suffcient to enter the Kingdom, through the law, through the old gate, of following the rules and being sorry for the consequences to ourselves when we don't. That was the old way and it still works.

BUT, if we take up our cross, go through the existential crisis, and come to that breakthrough where we are moreso sorry for our sin because of the consequences to others and to God, then we crucify the Old Man and rise as a New Creation, seeking the contemplative gaze, as Teresa says, not so much for the consolations but, rather, in order to gain the strength to serve. We become Christs. We allow God to be God-in-us, our truest selves. This isn't a requirement, but it is an invitation. The most important one that any of us will RSVP or not.

pax,
jb

Let me insert this here. Losing something like fear does not mean that we have come to any pollyannish conclusion that all of the bad things that could happen to us are not going to happen --- rather, it means that, we know full well they are even likely to happen but are nothing, ultimately, to fear. So, too, with guilt, anger ... We give up the neurotic version in exchange for the existential version, which is quite THE CROSS to arrive at the resurrected version, which is ALL IS WELL.

This, too, is dialectical, like the Kingdom. It is on its way. It has already arrived. Paradise is ours to inherit. It is already in our hearts. All is decidely NOT well, temporally, in this earthly tent wherein we dwell, BUT, in reality, ours is a robe of resplendent glory and, eternally (not at the end of time or for a long time, but outside of time where we have both origin and destiny), ALL is, indeed, well.

There's been some really good exchanges here. I'm loaded with meetings and appointments today and most of tomorrow, but will be chiming in soon.

Carry on . . .

"...she's[Bernadette Roberts] actually saying there's no subject of attention present in her experience and I'm quite sure there is one such in mine. I don't fully understand her experience..."

Phil, yes it is difficult to understand and Roberts underline this point as well. Nevertheless, I found Bernadette Roberts experience is very interesting. Her experience doesn't say only about self and no-self but her experience says much on the unknown mystery of Christ. Her understanding of Ressurection and Ascension is very interesting. I would like to reccomend the forum to read her interview at the following website:

http://www.geocities.com/brian...77/291binterview.htm

I forgot to mention Job, who apparently lost everything one could cling to, through God's design and not of his own volition. He was not seeking this experience.

Since life happens to us in this fashion, it could reveal something about determinism and free will, to revisit a very old debate, which confounded Job's "comforters" not a little.

Job inspired William Blake, who in turn inspired Merton, even before his conversion. I'm going to look at my Blake books and pictures when I visit my dad. (sometimes I give away my best books and covet them later) There are some who believe the Book of Job to be the masterpiece of all literature, surpassing Shakespeare, Socrates and Tolstoy. Wow!

we're having some fun now!

michael

<*))))><

Another distinction from Merton.

Merton discusses two of the types of confessio, of confession, but I don't recall the latin terms for both. One was laude or praise. The other was re: the more familiar "It was me. I done it." that we know from the Rite of Reconciliation and from police shakedowns, or parental busts re: hands in cookie jars.

This distinction makes for rich reflection and meditation but I'll try to control my imagination and focus on the transformative process.

The confession of praise is the converse: "It was God. He done it."

The psalms are about 50:50 penitential supplication taking the form of "I done it" and of praise taking the form of adoration of "He done it."

Now, there comes a point where we pass through existential crisis or a series of crises and recognize that there is little meritorious effort on our behalf other than cooperation with grace and that all else is pure unmerited Grace. This is part of recognizing our radical dependence on God, Whom we can trust because, well, look around at What He Done!

My point pertaining to this thread, however, is that, prior to getting to that place of praise and He Done It, we must get both to the place of I Done It re: our abject sinfulness as well as It Isn't/Wasn't Me! re: our manifold blessings and very existence.

Part of the nondual experience, then, is the existential realization of It Isn't Me --- not this creation, not these feelings, not these thoughts, not any rule-following or goodness, iow, It Isn't Me cognitively, affectively or morally, that's responsible for starting all of this, holding it all together and taking it anywhere.

This can be quite liberating.

The famous singer-songwriter, James Taylor, once made a wisecrack about AA, saying that half of the people that are in it are trying to come to the realization that they are not God, while the other half had the job once and are desperately busy trying to tender their resignation.

Well, it isn't enough to stop with It Isn't Me, and that, I believe, is where an existential experience of the no-self can leave us. But this apophatic realization must be dialectically related to HE DID IT! IT'S HER! and this is the positive, kataphatic content that is truly fitting and proper, coming from a tongue that cannot confess same without the initiative of the Spirit's prompting.

So, the loss of the affective ego can occur, in any of the many ways we have conceived it and experienced it, I think, and particularly in a manner that Merton wisely discerned was apophatic, natural, impersonal, existential, but needing completion in the kataphatic, supernatural, personal and theological, these processes nurturing and mutually enriching and entailing one another. This is where Tony deMello went awry to some extent in some of his later work and it is where Bernadette likely errs, too.

Point is, the confession of It's Not Me is necessary but not sufficient.

Gotta run. Going to a Herman's Hermit concert!

pax,
Herman's Hermit

Well said, J.B.

The good thing is, by Grace, we are led through whatever kataphatic and apophatic periods that are needed. It is hard for me to remember, and trust, that God works so much better beyond our faculties, and that this accounts for much of the apophatic aridities we go through.

re: It is hard for me to remember, and trust, that God works so much better beyond our faculties, and that this accounts for much of the apophatic aridities we go through.

Was that ever well said. Further, the apophatic aridity and godforsaken sense of Godforsakeness can find no relief, and very little consolation in a mere cognitive assent to the notion that Well, I cannot feel His Presence but I know He is there because the absence is existentially pervasive, which is to say experienced as an absolute absence cognitively, affectively, morally, spiritually, physically. There are no faculties mediating His Presence. And, any counsel or direction to the contrary pretty much gets filtered as a brilliant rationalization, to try to put words to the Little Flower's bout with profound angst as well as what I have been through myself.

When the knowledge through love arrives it is as certain as it is obscure, differing from our earlier journey where our vision was clear but tentative (cf. Benedict Groeschel). Without faculties, behavioral psychology of reward and punishment, which is to say, of reinforcement collapses. The energy paradigms of psychoanalytic psychologies get stretched very thin, except for those that have cultivated a jungian-type depth. This is why the work of Arraj of putting sanjuanist spiritual theology into dialogue with Jung is so important. It is not unlike Merton's Sufi master friend who tried to put Sufism in dialogue with psychoanalysis. It is not unlike the rich contributions that you have made to these forums, w.c. , which will be appreciated by cyber-passers-by long after you have moved on to new projects. BTW, I also find myself going, Wow!, where did Grace (our contributor) come from? Grace, you have obviously been aware on the journey. Michael, you, too. Thanks for sharing so personally and depthfully. I have to tell you that I look at many of your insights (all of your contributions) with plain old amazement, even if I don't comment on every one directly. But I believe you might discern, at times, that I am commenting indirectly

Carry on,
and thanks from all of us
jb

PS I forgot to make my point which is that, without the affective ego, without the reward/punishment reinforcement mechanism fully in place, absent consolation --- when one continues to persist in moral behavior, in loving interactions with others, because Love is its own reward ---- One has then NEVER been closer to loving with Unconditional Love, BY DEFINITION. The Paradox is, then, One Has NEVER BEEN CLOSER to GOD, WHO IS PURE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. We prayed to be transformed into the Imago Dei, well guess what: Our prayer was answered -- just when we thought that God was dead and we were abandoned. Sounds like the last moments on the Cross? because IT WAS! You have died with Him and now you RISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In my eperience, 12 steps can take a very long time to work out the kinks in the human personality. Ten or twenty years of working it. The work is mostly placing oneself in a position to recieve grace. Hardly anyone who's been around for a while claims credit for their recovery. Most credit God and this Power as expressed in the group conscience. I've been to over six thousand meetings.

I remain in the Merton/Keating/Griffiths school and when I get into Matthew Fox, Anthony DeMello and Wayne Teasdale I become disoriented and lose my Christian grounding. I have been moving away from eastern philosophy for the last six months. I became confused and everyone noticed it. I am "hooked" on Zen and Taoism and will return to it when the attraction once again becomes irresistable. Merton seemed to view Vedanta
and Mahayana as a bit too sophisticated and complex. I may reach this conclusion myself. I find the devotional aspect of Sufism and Bhakti Yoga very appealing as I used to be a Charismatic.

I'm just a puppy and might never be a big dog
mystic and that's ok

caritas,


michael <*))))><

I had had one experience which resonate with the loss of affective Ego. About two months ago the energy inside began rotate fast and as a result of it the moment of meditation intensified. After some days I sensed some fluid like movement at the base of my spine, popularly known as awakening of kundalini, struggling to go upward. This movement continues for some days and I noticed tremendious change in my spiritual life. The signinficant thing happened at this time is my encounter with Christ and Maria. Such kind of mysterious and holy things happened often. What I�m talking about in this post is about the change of my food style. Direct after the awakening of K my food style entirely changed. I stopped to eat all kinds of meat, fatty foods and stopped to drink all types of alcholic drinks. What amazed me mostly is there is no any affectionity towards those types of food and drinks both positively and negatively. I neither didn�t hate them nor desire them. In my previous posts I noted that I have some kind of loss of affetive ego interms of detachment from memories and emotions. Regarding the above mentioned change I see it as an OUTCOME of the loss of affective ego. You may have other opinions than I have.

I would like to hear your comments?

Grace, what you describe certainly seems to be a kundalini rising. Many people have noted a desire to change diet when that happens; I felt much the same, at one point, and still have to be careful about that.

I don't notice much connection between diet and the experience of the affective ego, however. A poor food choice can make me feel lethargic or cranky, for example, but has little effect on the affective memory.

It could well be that, as you share, the loss of that affective sensitivity we've been discussing on this thread is related to kundalini rising. I believe that to be the case in my own experience. Just how this works, I'm not sure. Kundalini does work to remove toxic emotions from the psyche, but just why it should remove even the positive ones isn't completely clear, unless it's to open possibilities for sensitivity to more subtle movements in the psyche.

Phil, that was laso my suspicion. It seems there is a relationship between arousal of kundalini and loss of affective ego. I believe everything that impede spirituality is removed by k. That we see the positive one in our mind can have a negative impact on the subtle form of spirit. I assume k removes both negative and positive toxic emotions and as a result of it we may experience loss of affective ego. It is interesting to see k from this point of view.

I'd like to join this discussion and add my experience, if I can, and any comments would be appreciated. I recently wrote a list of experiences to Father Keating; and he said it may be the beginning of "contemplation." Can someone eddify me on all this terminology? Phil said:
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Unlike depression, which has a definite affective content, this state seems to be altogether devoid of emotion or feeling until one is engaged in an activity of some kind. Then, the appropriate feeling emerges; once that is over, however, things revert back to zero -- a state of flatness or apathaea. I'm aware that some counselors might consider this dissociation or a type of depression, but I would disagree, and so would the Arrajs -- which is why we're hoping this experience will become better understood.

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This flatness is what I experience, and it certain SEEMS to be something like what Phil writes above. Here are some symptoms, which could well be something totally different:

1) pressure in forehead and various parts of the body, that intensify and I have to work with intentional breath, prayer, to clear these physical discomforts that seem to be related to psycological aspects/complexes in my being, because when the pressures appear, the complexes increase.

2) a mind that is unusally blank for most of the day, and empty of interest in either God or the world. This mind can open up to infusions of light, presence, force, peace from above the head and receive this in the body.

3) a detachment from the senses and an interest in what lies behind an object; an almost obsessive seeking of mystery inside, around people, objects, words, conversations, world events.

5) inability or complete lack of interest in God as something other, or apart, or somewhere else. Although I can willfully create an image, my mind veers away from this.

6) ability to feel many sorts of energies in rooms, places.

7) an intensification of energy in the forehead and crown.

8) lack of interest in people, more interested in the energy behind them, or around them.

9) Mind becoming abstacted in the middle of conversation, suddenly completely disinterested for no apparant reason.

10) emotional trauma bubbles up in unexpected places.

11) a sense of confusion, not having an identity, or any place to stand. Not knowing who or what I am.

12) inability the invoke clear pictures of a discerable past. Past is all blurry.

13) Memory suddenly incapeable of remebering what it was doing a moment ago.

14) Long term memory almost completely debilitated--related to pressure in forehead.

15) a sense of intensity of sound, high pitched sound in the ears.

16) occasionally every problem is washed away by infusions from above the head and for a time there are no problems, no pressures etc.

17) inability to read books, or focus for long periods of time. Very low attention span, unless I intentinally engage myself.

18) most previous experiences, visions, experiences of grace, disappeared. Everything taking on a less subjective colouring.

19) a focus on broad ideas, and atmospheres of things/places/people rather than on particulars.

If anyone has experienced these things, any advice would be helpful as to how to integrate this.

Huuu

Asher

Asher, and all - there is much of each of our own journeys that we can relate to in others' journeys and, even then, so much is unique, too. Even then, for instance in Catholicism, where most will subscribe to integrative and holistic approaches, we still draw distinctions between those symptoms that are best dealt with through 1) spiritual direction 2) moral guidance 3) reconciliation or confession 4) healing ministries 5) psychological counseling 6) group therapies 7) pastoral counseling 8) evangelization ministry 9) medical and pharmacological therapy 10) psychiatric therapy 11) other forms of ministry and sharing, even such as in an internet discussion forum.

Your list of symptoms is somewhat varied and doesn't lend itself to a cursory appraisal. It may be a useful exercise for you to group these symptoms under at least a few of the above-listed categories. After you've done that, it would likely be very useful to then list them in a descending order of severity, which is to suggest that you give some thought to the amount of discomfort or distress each gives you, including the amount of dysfunction and disruption each causes in your life when experienced. Then, it would be important to list the most disruptive and uncomfortable symptoms in a descending order with respect to their frequencies, which is to ask "how often" do you experience same. For that matter, list those things, by type, that energize you and make you feel most alive and connected to reality and other people, too, along with their intensity and frequency. What may be acedia for some, clinical depression for others, loss of affective ego for still others, or other forms of desolation and/or illness, could well be, for another, an almost companionable, which is to suggest even comfortable, companionable aridity of sorts (com + pan means with bread (food), iow, we are even nurtured, somehow, by the aridity) . Very difficult to discern without protracted sharing and Q&A.

Some of these may seem to you as rather benign, while others are more distressing. To the extent you have a firm conviction that many of these symptoms are indeed from some type of spiritual emergence process, as they say, from a spiritual emergency, then it would be most helpful to find medical and psychological and religious professionals who are both sympathetic to and somewhat familiar with same. This can be a challenge but asking around and even shopping around can pay big dividends.

The care and nurturance of a soul is a most awesome task! You will appreciate this from C.S. Lewis:

"It is a serious thing, to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no 'ordinary' people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilisations -- these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whome we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit -- immortal horrors or everlasting splendours. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of that kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously -- no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption. And our charity must be a real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinner -- no mere tolerance or indulgence which parodies love as flippancy parodies merriment." From __The Weight of Glory__

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It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities and with the awe and circumspection proper to them that I respond to your request (you, who are no ordinary mortal, but rather an everlasting splendor, to be sure). I thus respond with no flippancy, no superiority and no presumption!

God's richest blessings on this part of your journey to glory,

jb

All of the above I was sitting in a spiritual group about four years ago last January, and began to describe some of these symptoms, and how much meditation I was doing. A chap who flew a twin engine fighter-bomber in Southeast Asia and is not really afraid of many things, fixed his gaze on me and his eyes became as big as saucers.
"Better hang on to your __s, because I know someone that happened to and it can go on for YEARS!" It was then I realized I was a mystic mm

Jb--

Nice insightful answer--no flippancy, superiority, presumption felt) I am hoping that some of these symptoms are a common experiences to encourage dialouge about them and not to simply refer to my/self, "my" experiences. Perhaps they are related to the Dark Night. But they are varied and Father Keatings also felt that some had to do with Kundalini and psychic capacities, of which I have little/no interest in.

Perhaps, as you say, there are common denominators by which means we can relate to others. As you point out, there is uniqueness to our individual approaches and experience. All of this is given; I just want to encourage dialogue with others who may be in a similar place, or may have passed through a similar phase, if it is a phase.

You mention different ways of dealing with such issues; personally, I have tried to dialouge with people, recently called a Catholic woman Phd. pyscologist who is connected to "Contemplative Outreach." After describing some of the above, she said that she wouldn't be able to help me, as she is not familar with this. And she said she knows no one who deals with these issues. She suggested "Traspersonal psycology," however, I am wary of this field. I'm actually becoming wary of seeking a solution to the problem.

On a more personal note (as if the above post wasn't personal!) I have seen that the possible healing of these energetic knots requires a cutting through my own psyco-spiritual resistance and not falling back on my old ways. This occured last night as I sat, and realized that sitting itself is That. Realizing this, I felt no need to get anywhere, or do anything, but to simply be aware of a dimension of being that opened up.

Physically, this dimension, which I can only call "I am" was felt in the hara, but the import was not physical or simply psyco-spiritual. It seems to point infinitely away from the self and its problems. So close was this beingness to me, that I cannot comprehend why it is not normal, why I miss it. With it came awareness, but not awareness as an object. I was simply being without seeking to be.

I'm sure many people experience this every day and for some it is completely normal and natural to simply be, without seeking any"thing." I believe all psyo-spiritual healing happens only when this view point is reached and maintained. I simply cannot reach it at will, so I suppose it is a grace, I don't honestly know. I believe it is an intimation of what Christ called "poverty" but I cannot say.

What is evident is that it sees that all problems are simply life living itself; and they are not problems anymore as long as we refrain from seeking solutions. It is seeking that is the problem and this comes not from reading a book)

So perhaps any seeking of an answer is part of my/the problem, and that I should simply allow myself to drop down into the place of being and problems themselves with resolve themselves. I don't quite know. And it's not as if I can do this at will yet. But it offered me a "ground" yeterday, which is the only ground I can consider worthy of seeking.