PS.

Thanks for CS Lewis. I was only familar with Narnia until recently

It's a very lonely place. I know that if I were to drive myself to the mental hospital, (which I've thought about doing,) or tell these things to my doctor, they would probably lock me up and heavily sedate me. When I ask myself what they would ask me, "Are you likely to harm yourself or another?", the answer is NO so then I ask myself what is the big deal and why create all this drama
There has been fear and neurosis and even some mental states bordering on the bizzare or psychotic.

I enjoy a great deal of solitude while I'm going through this. It would be strange to be married and have someone very intimate that does not understand what their mate is going through.

Still, no matter how scary it gets, it is only a matter of minutes in getting back to the
peace and the love and whatever it is which chose me for this awesome adventure.

caritas,

mm

<*)))))><

quote:

Originally posted by Asher:
[qb] I'm actually becoming wary of seeking a solution to the problem.

What is evident is that it sees that all problems are simply life living itself; and they are not problems anymore as long as we refrain from seeking solutions. It is seeking that is the problem and this comes not from reading a book)

So perhaps any seeking of an answer is part of my/the problem, and that I should simply allow myself to drop down into the place of being and problems themselves with resolve themselves. I don't quite know. [/qb]

Asher, this is a BIG insight. Merton has touched upon this dynamic, when he speaks of existential crisis, which is very much related to the Cross for Christians although it happens with all people, even in science. The dynamic, more specifically, involves our confrontation with a problem. We initially perceive the problem as soluble and we work mightily to solve it. It matters not whether it is a philosophical conundrum or some scientific hypothesis or some existential crisis/spiritual emergency. We exhaust all of our resources and then arrive at the point where we pretty much conclude that this particular issue is insoluble. At this point, we resolve to leave it alone, give it a rest, to forget about it altogether. So, we do. Then, when you least expect it, whether in a dream or while playing or working or chopping wood and carrying water, the solution comes to us in a flash, totally gratuitously and unmerited as pure grace, so to speak. Now, this dynamic is very natural and involves the workings of the human mind at a subconscious level, intuitions bubbling up to the surface, to be sure, not unaided by the Holy Spirit.

This dynamic works when you cannot balance your checkbook, too

I just wrote some notes on this recently. I'll dig them up and share them if I can find them.

Also, though, it is especially worthy of note that this process seems to describe how many if not most major breakthroughs occur in the advance of human knowledge, however personal or existential, however theological or scientific. It is also worthy of note that we cannot skip any of the steps and expect it to work

pax,
jb

. . . Still, no matter how scary it gets, it is only a matter of minutes in getting back to the peace and the love and whatever it is which chose me for this awesome adventure.

caritas,

mm

And that's why you're not insane. Your ability to be with your brokenness without breaking, holding it in faith, is what makes all the difference. It sounds like you can even see, to some extent, how you have a choice about this, and how the manner in which you choose to attend to the moment makes all the difference.

-----

Asher and JB, a very rich exchange above. I concur with JB's suggestions, and would offer the following more as general observations.

As I read through your list, some of the symptoms sound related to kundalini, others to unloadings of the unconscious, and others to the kinds of consequences observed in Eastern practices that devalue the life of the intellect and discourage its exercise. The latter would actually account for the heightened kundalini/unloading experiences as well, as certain eastern practices annihilate the boundaries between the conscious and unconscious aspects of the psyche in favor of intensifying sensitivity to subtle realms.

You've alluded to your manner of spiritual practice, but perhaps you can say more. How long have you been meditating? What kind of meditation do you do? Are you studying with anyone in particular?

"You've alluded to your manner of spiritual practice, but perhaps you can say more. How long have you been meditating? What kind of meditation do you do? Are you studying with anyone in particular?" (Phil)

Hey Phil,

Thanks for offering your insight. I don't follow any practice any more, but allowing these surges in the brain centre and beginning to become aware "I Am" especially as it relates to the hara centre. This is key to integrating I now see and will involve much work with breath/body over the next few years.

When I first began spiritual life 8 years ago, I prayed in my heart and concentrated only on the heart dimension. I was on a path of devotion. At it's deepest level I sensed a flame of love which showed me eternity. Not a thought, but a subtle and sweet fragrance. This was as far as I could get in the heart and after this, I felt my time with that particular path was over. This awarenes grew in me as I related before, with a knowing that I needed to be in relationship with women to heal my human problems.

I found two teachers (a couple) who taught Kriya Yoga, and so I studied this (but disliked it) I only studied with those 2 yogi's for 2 monthes as they couldn't help me much and I didn't feel a need to do all those exercises, felt my problems required a very subtle divine "surgery." None of my efforts would prove wothwhile. This teacher said that "none of these practices will help you." They became controlling, and it was at that point I found a book by Father Keatings and he advised me to meet him. I couldn't at the time. But I began to feel Christ profoundly and for a while my practice was taking care of my sick friend and feeling the presence of Christ.

So I left those two teachers. They told me "I'd go down the drain, if I left them!" I prayed to Christ and corresponded with Father Keatings.

Now I have no practice but following this Grace, and working (not willfully, as in pranayama) but consciously with breathe. I found rebirthing very liberating and suggest that anyone who does councelling/healing would learn this. It is the only effective healing modality I have come across. So at times, I work with breath in this way, but rarely nowadays.

Now the process happens quite often when I don't seek it, so I consider this practice. It is very painful though, isolating etc and I currently feel pretty neurotic, although all this disappears at times when these infusions from above the head come in the body.

So no teacher now.

Phil--

You are right about the devaluing of the intellect. The first teacher I was with when I was 19 to 27 had a profound impact on this view of the intellect. He constantly discouraged it and even subtlely mocked his PhD students. This had disasterous effects on some of his students who has view excellent intellects. One of my best friends was a trained lawyer and gave it up to work as a cook, which may not have been so wrong from a spiritual sense. But I don't see why using the intellect is so wrong. This teacher saw that most of his students were only capeable of awakening in the heart, then he talked about bringing the awakened heart in alignment with the mind. This was a natural process for anyone who considered themselves his students. I have seen so often the unfoldment process replicating itself in people that follow a particular path, which is why I agree with you that each path will have a particular emphasis. This path emphasized devotion to God and neglected the intellect. However, it never neglected the intuitive mind and the awakened and illumined life force. I couldn't reach these places following his path, which is why I left. What I did learn was devotion. But that isn't enough, the heart is not enough, the whole life must be radically reoriented. This teacher did emphasize running and I did all that, but there was no trasformative power in it for me.

Quote:
______________________________________________

As I read through your list, some of the symptoms sound related to kundalini, others to unloadings of the unconscious, and others to the kinds of consequences observed in Eastern practices that devalue the life of the intellect and discourage its exercise. The latter would actually account for the heightened kundalini/unloading experiences as well, as certain eastern practices annihilate the boundaries between the conscious and unconscious aspects of the psyche in favor of intensifying sensitivity to subtle realms.

_______________________________________________

Jesus, I never really asked for this. This "blank mind" began two and a half years ago and basically is related to a pressure in the forehead which accompanies me in my day to day activies and it is really annoying. When it first began, I wondered whether it had to do with repressing aspects in my psyche. I wrote a letter to this teacher who basically taught me how to meditate in a way that I highly discourage to others at this point. Basically, he asked us to shut the doors of attention on thought and that whenever a thought came, to literally kill it. Then he said there will come a time when you can allow thought in, and then it will be transformed??? Anyway, Phil you've made me aware of an issue and I thank you for this generosity in listening.

This "stopping of thoughts" must have become habitual to me, so much so that it remained with me even after two years of not really meditating.
This is how I can describe it now. If mind were like a circle, let's say abstractions and ambiguities are the circle's circumference. The mind is constantly drawn to this circumference--magnetically--which is why (as you say) I have become sensitive to subtle realms which interpenetrate this circumference. This is all related to a pressure in the forehead--mind you, and is not consciously willed. I must make this part clear, as other students of this teacher could not relate to this experience. So perhaps that form of meditation was helpful to them.

Instead of allowing myself to be pulled into the circumference, lets say that I imagine or intentionally create a point in the centre of the circle. Then there is a peculiar balance in the brain that I never quite had before. This point happens to figure naturally between the brows, a little above. And focus on it seems to help this movement away into abtstraction/ambiguity. With it seems to come a clarity I never had before, and I really believe this must be the seat of intellect, as when I place this dot there, my intellect starts to function again. However, if I hold this for to long, or force it, I get tension. Things seem to becoming clearer

Huuuuu

what I meant to say is "focus on this point GETS RID of the ambiguity/unclarity/cloudiness/confusion that I feel.

Asher, those pressures in your forehead sound like they're related to the third eye. When this is opened, there is great clarity and inner silence, as you also describe when things clear. When our modal level of consciousness becomes centered there, the clarity becomes more persistent, but significant deviations into the realms of mental and emotional activity become more unpleasant as well.

Basically, he asked us to shut the doors of attention on thought and that whenever a thought came, to literally kill it.

That's a good description of quietism, actually. And it's easy to see how such a teaching would arise. One notes that in 3rd eye consciousness, the mind is silent, so one tries to silence the mind so that 3rd eye consciousness can arise. Makes perfect sense, except for the fact that the movement to 3rd eye consciousness should be a natural development directed by Grace/Spirit. Trying to barge into this inner room can create great psychological havoc, such as what you've described (come to think of it, the quitests reported very similar symptoms). And, as you're noting, thought-suppression can become habitual. Just as we can train the body to view food as bad (anorexia nervosa), so it can be with thought. As I've noted on other threads, thought is not an obstacle to spiritual growth, and can even be a means through which we contact God. Conversely, the absence of thought signifies nothing in and of itself.

I wonder about all these teachers who emphasize intuitive development at the expense of intellectual development. There's something very, very wrong about that, imo--even dangerous!

I'll have to try silence more often. The outpouring of raw intellect and wisdom when I shut up is amazing.

Phil quoteth: I wonder about all these teachers who emphasize intuitive development at the expense of intellectual development. There's something very, very wrong about that, imo--even dangerous!

My intuition tells me that is very much true. But the way I see it is that it needn't be an either/or battle between intellect vs. intuition since, at least in my view, these two things are pretty much the same. Intellect is reasoning happening in the conscious mind while intuition is this same process in the unconscious mind. Some people (like me, I suppose) do most of their reasoning, not with pencil and paper in the conscious mind, but in the murkier recesses of the mind as in "out of sight, but not out of mind". Oh sure, some would like to then give more credence to this type of intuitive thinking because it's "spooky" or more "mystical" but that just ain't so as noted by the outpouring of several minds around here that seem quite strong on raw in-your-face conscious intellect.

The truth is that I often can't handle simple mathematical or other problems. The buffer of my conscious mind quickly becomes overloaded. Thus I'm fairly confident in intuitively reasoning that some minds are able to work with a lot of data, and quite abstractly, out in the open, on the conscious level of the mind. Other minds, such as that of yours truly, only appears to be as dumb as a post when asked a point-blank question. But given time to compost a bit, I'm still capable of answering questions beyond the Dick and Jane variety�and sometime of the George Will variety.

Gotta love that George Dubya .......

Phil,

Thanks, I'm beginning to see how this form of meditation (which I haven't pursued for over 2 years) is dangerous. Please offer any advice for this problem. I know I have come to some conclusions over the past few days, as result of talking to people here. But how to permenantly rid myself of this pressure? I never sought all these things. I sought to be in the heart, which is actually what this teacher taught me, but at what expense?? Can I have both? It would seem I can.

Can you suggest a prayer/practice that would be helpful for this situation? I know I've alluded to certain things above. Like dropping attention to the belly, and the movement towards clarity in the forehead/intellect. But these happen on there own; I cannot do anything to reach this. Wow, so much fruit from this discussion. Thanks again.

Asher

Hi Brad,

I don't quite agree with this statement:

"intuition is this same process in the unconscious mind."

Intuition is not the unconscious mind, it is beyond mind, from what I understand. Perhaps it's jut different semantics, but I always differentiate between unconcious mind/impulse and intuition.

But huuu knows.

quote:

Oh sure, some would like to then give more credence to this type of intuitive thinking because it's "spooky" or more "mystical" but that just ain't so as noted by the outpouring of several minds around here that seem quite strong on raw in-your-face conscious intellect.

But Brad, that sounds like the usual postmodern tripe where everything is devalued for the sake of devaluing (and not always, as some sly people would lead you to believe, for the sake of honest critiquing, although I will admit the boundary between the two can easily become blurred). W (as in BWN), say it isn�t so!

That�s quite perceptive, possibly even intuitive, of you, Timmy. You�re right. The intuitive mind is mystical, magical and probably even bewitching, bewildering and beguiling. No need to downplay this just to make that point that this is also true of more mundane and familiar things such as the conscious mind. Such is the wonder too of the intellect, no matter from where it springs. Is not the goal of darn near every mystical journey to return home again and to see everyday things with a new eye? Is not the point of Buddhism, or a number of other ism�s, to simply splash us in the face with cold water in order to break us out of our habit of making the commonplace mundane and thus uninteresting?

The Magical Mystery Tour is waiting to take you away�and plop you right back down to where you always were. No charge (although there might be some expenses incurred).

quote:

I don't quite agree with this statement:

"intuition is this same process in the unconscious mind."

Intuition is not the unconscious mind, it is beyond mind, from what I understand. Perhaps it's jut different semantics, but I always differentiate between unconcious mind/impulse and intuition.

Hi, Asher. There�s always a better than 50-50 chance they you�re right and I�m wrong, considering that I usually shoot from the intuitive hip. But because I�m using buckshot I often hit at least something!

Well, I don�t think intuition is beyond mind. But I do think intuition goes to show that the mind is rather beyond (despite the fact that we use it to suppose such things) our understanding in many ways. But you�re right. It could just be a matter of semantics. Is the dirt and brush between the paved roads to be considered part of the highway system even though you can[ use this space (where navigable) as a shortcut from one road to another?

Yes, this is off-road philosophizing at its dustiest. But when the dust finally settles, the intuitives can depend on the well-paved and schooled intellects �round here to tell us where we�ve been and, in logical detail, why our shortcuts worked or didn�t.

And sometimes they even hand out tickets. Rats.

"Yes, this is off-road philosophizing at its dustiest. But when the dust finally settles, the intuitives can depend on the well-paved and schooled intellects �round here to tell us where we�ve been and, in logical detail, why our shortcuts worked or didn�t.

Hi Brad,
There are many genuine mystics who are not intellects and don't require the well-paved road you allude to. Read Brother Lawrence and Francis, if you haven't. Or perhaps that's too off the beaten track for you?

And in terms of "short cuts" you're presumptious to allude that I have tried to take a short cut. But maybe that presumption comes from the mechanics of a well schooled intellect?? Whose handing out tickets here? lol

Anyway, I'm grateful for Phil and JB's help.

Asher

PS.
___________________________

But when the dust finally settles, the intuitives can depend on the well-paved and schooled intellects round here....

___________________________

You know I think I've learned quite a bit from Grace and he doesn't strike me as an intellectual. Sorry he doesn't fit your paradigm. Maybe a modification is in order?

Huuuuu

You know, if you check out my later posts on the Enlightenment thread, it may be that the distinction Asher's been wrestling with is not so much between intuition and conceptualization (and it isn't unlikely that in their circularity/feedback loopiness intuition plays a primary role in taking sensation and perception on the path to conceptualization)-- but might have more to do with connaturality, knowledge by inclination, by a subject's being co-natured with its object, which in God's case is LOVE.

A break in your day


A poet can transform life's pain and make it beautiful. -------> hope and beauty

A poet can transform paradox and remove obstructions from a pathway. ----------> faith and truth

A poet can construct a koan that when solved through a life experience, at the same time, heals the experience. ---------> love and goodness

The blues is the roots. All other music, its fruits. ------> death and resurrection

There are many genuine mystics who are not intellects and don't require the well-paved road you allude to.

It�s not so much a question of �requiring� as in comparing and contrasting. How would know if one was in the midst of mystical thinking if one wasn�t in touch with non-mystical thinking?

And in terms of "short cuts" you're presumptious to allude that I have tried to take a short cut.

The short cut, in this instance, Asher, would have been to take my meaning as general musings on the different approaches to thinking and the different types and states of mind. The long way was to assume that I mean some slight, which I did not. Sorry if it sounded that way to you.

_____________________________________________
It�s not so much a question of �requiring� as in comparing and contrasting. How would know if one was in the midst of mystical thinking if one wasn�t in touch with non-mystical thinking?
______________________________________________

Brad, I think if one has a genuine spiritual teacher, he/she can intuitively tell you what is happening. This seems the safest way, but there must be absolute trust and faith in that teacher. So that would be my answer. Books and dialouge can help, but one needs a guide.

___________________________________________

The short cut, in this instance, Asher, would have been to take my meaning as general musings on the different approaches to thinking and the different types and states of mind. The long way was to assume that I mean some slight, which I did not. Sorry if it sounded that way to you.

______________________________________________

My apologies for this misunderstanding.

Huuuuu

_____________________________

A poet can transform life's pain and make it beautiful. -------> hope and beauty

A poet can transform paradox and remove obstructions from a pathway. ----------> faith and truth

A poet can construct a koan that when solved through a life experience, at the same time, heals the experience. ---------> love and goodness

The blues is the roots. All other music, its fruits. ------> death and resurrection

____________________________________________

JB--

you make my study breaks worthwhile. Hope, faith, love, death and resurrection! Alhumdillallah!

And all connected to poetics; this would turn the tables on Derrida et al. Try writing the type of poetry you propose and submitting it to one of the magazines across the country! They'd call you a modernist and crucify you The idea these days is to rip apart everything that is beautiful and see how it ticks...but I find glory even in the minute particulars, the dust underneath the moth wings, the calyx, stamen, all marvels to be further deconstructed)

To See the World... (even in pieces)


Huuuu

Thanks, I'm beginning to see how this form of meditation (which I haven't pursued for over 2 years) is dangerous. Please offer any advice for this problem. I know I have come to some conclusions over the past few days, as result of talking to people here. But how to permenantly rid myself of this pressure? I never sought all these things. I sought to be in the heart, which is actually what this teacher taught me, but at what expense?? Can I have both? It would seem I can.

You pretty much always end up answering your own questions, Asher. I've sent you some names of people you can visit with, as well as a book that might help. As I've noted, my expertise is not with energy management; I kind of do a little of "this and that" to get through the days myself.

Can you suggest a prayer/practice that would be helpful for this situation? I know I've alluded to certain things above. Like dropping attention to the belly, and the movement towards clarity in the forehead/intellect. But these happen on there own; I cannot do anything to reach this. Wow, so much fruit from this discussion. Thanks again.

Why not just accept the consciousness you have and walk with it, present to the moment, willing to love what God is placing in your life. That always seems the best "practice" to me; my prayer and meditation is largely about becoming established in this kind of consciousness through reading Scripture, inviting Christ to form me, and resting in loving Silence when it comes.

(Your retort to Brad

There are many genuine mystics who are not intellects and don't require the well-paved road you allude to. Read Brother Lawrence and Francis, if you haven't. Or perhaps that's too off the beaten track for you?

Glad to see you softening things with Brad, but I would say, here, in reply that you couldn't have picked two more kataphatic mystics if you had tried. These men found God in the sun and moon, forests and valleys, pots and pans, etc. They were also thoroughly grounded in the Catholic tradition, knew their Scripture, prayed the daily office, went to daily Mass -- iow, they were well-formed in the Catholic pathway. Neither was much of an intellectual, that is true, but I don't think they were anti-intellectual by a long shot. Giving the intellect its due has been my main point, which stands in sharp contrast to many teachers on enlightenment-oriented pathways.

you couldn't have picked two more kataphatic mystics if you had tried

truth be known, even juan de la cruz was the liturgical mystic

Re: St Francis and B. Lawrence
_______________________________________________
Neither was much of an intellectual, that is true, but I don't think they were anti-intellectual by a long shot. Giving the intellect its due has been my main point, which stands in sharp contrast to many teachers on enlightenment-oriented pathways.

________________________________________________

Who is anti-intellectual here? I think I'm being mistaked for some image/idea of a "quietist." I have no problem with intellect, as I've written in other posts, but I also believe that intentionally stopping thoughts may be a fine introduction to people who are rajasic (mind over stimulated). This mental quiescene has to be reckoned with later and it is in the Hindu/enlightenment tradition. A quick goggle search under "laya" and what Maharshi says about it would probably reveal the similarities. It is precisely what you call "quietism" and highly discouraged in advaitic thought/practice/tradition. Ramana tells his disiples that this "blank mind" is a transitional stage and warns them not to indulge in it. Here's what Ramakrishna says about mind in general, and I tend to agree (and Ramakrishna had no problems with Christianity having realized Vedanta, Tantra, Christianity, Islam: all resolved in the same Nirvikalpa.
________________________________________
Ramakrishna:

23.) To explain God after merely reading the scriptures is like explaining to a person the city of Banaras after seeing it only in a map.

24.) Grantha (Book) always does not mean a Holy Scripture, but often it comes to mean 'Granthi' or a knot. If a man does not read it with an intense desire to know the Truth and renouncing all the vanity, the mere reading of books only gives rise to pedantry, presumptions, egoism, etc., which will be an encumbrance on his mind like so many knots.

25.) Para Vidya i.e. higher knowledge is that by which we know God. All else, scriptures, philosophy, logic, grammar, etc. only burden and puzzle the mind. The Granthas (books) are sometimes Granthis (knots). They are good only when they lead to the higher knowledge.

________________________________________________

St Francis discouraged the reading of books, besides scripture and his rule (the original not the edited version) allowed only scripture. Nothing by theologians, etc. Brother Elias was an instrument in changing this, but Francis wasn't so fond of this brother, as I recollect.

And Ramakrishna was the sweetest devotee of God, not belonging to "Enlightenment" tradition (nor adverse to it) and not belonging to a purely bhatkti tradition, either (nor adverse to it). He was both a bhakta and jnani.