Very good catch, Derek. It's just amazing how versatile Thomistic anthropology is for validating and accounting for an incredible variety of phenomena.

quote:

I also tended to think of it in terms of the Anima at the start of the encounter, but am inclined, as the experience deepens, to consider it a soul connection. It has such an everyday relational quality to it besides the high energy stuff.

Stephen, I'm not sure what you mean by "soul connection," here. A connection with something of your own soul, or that of another? Living contact with the Anima can certainly feel like contact with another female being, albeit from another dimension (true for women and their Animus contacts, as well). When I have strong Anima dreams, the female representation and energy sometimes stays with me for days, and it can feel very much like the inner resonance of contact with another woman, especially when the context has been loving. These are REAL encounters leaving REAL impressions in the psyche. I'd be hesitant to attribute them to another living person, however, especially some kind of Twin Flame Soulmate. The metaphysics and anthropology behind most of those teachings about Twin Flame are based on misguided assumptions, imo. E.g., that we are male and female does imply some kind of splitting of a male/female human spiritual soul. Gender is an attribute of biology, not spirit, and yet the genetics of a man do include the complement he received from his mother, and this could be sufficient for explaining why the psyche represents female energy to a male psyche.

I don't know if you purused the links I posted above, but there are warnings from Jung about getting to intentionally involved with the Anima. Like everything else in the psyche, she is somewhat bi-polar, manifesting at one time as an attractive friend or lover, but others as the wicked witch of the west. She is both Shakti and Kali in Hindu mythology; Athena and Aprhodites in Greek mythology, etc. She is definitely not an adequate partner for the Ego, but is, ideally, a guide to other aspects of the unconscious. Not meaning to sound preachy, here, I hope. Pop's post above makes a very good point, to which Jung would agree.

It might help if I say I believe my soul had a pre existence before incarnation. Ever since I was a child I've dreamed about this and had memories of pre existence. Nothing I can do to change that. My understanding is that the soul then, without gender as you say, splits and incarnates as male and female, and that the twin flame idea is a reunion. Now I'm not sure about this. The idea of a soul splitting to incarnate still seems a little strange. However there are other possibilities as to what soul connection might mean if one is open to the idea of pre existence.

As regards the experience I'm having, I believe it's a connection with another living being. Whether or not she's part of my own soul as it was before incarnation doesn't really matter. The connection is real. There are just too many personal details I've learned about this woman, too many coincidences, and the sense of another living being experiencing sensation in union with me is palpable. Now Jung might say I'm inventing these details or am prone to imaginary flights and sensation based on unusual energies and unconscious memories at least, but I'm not buying that. Everything else in my life points to balance, grounding and genuine growth. I hope that doesn't sound conceited. As you know, Phil, strange interpersonal connections have been a strong factor in my k awakening and spiritual development, and this has the same atmosphere as those, distinct from archetypal manifestation or evidence of spiritual beings, both of which I've also experienced to quite a degree.

Let me say I have no desire to challenge people's beliefs here at SP, or contend with anyone about doctrine or anthropology. I hope I'm simply presenting things as I experience them. And I value the suggestion/analysis you and Derek are making (even if I'm quick to dismiss it). Nor are my earth bound senses clouded by a miasma of baser mystical phenomena, as old pop's quote might imply (or am I being paranoid again, Poppington?) I'm burning with the love of my Creator and devoted to his Son.

The whole experience these past two years has given me a great deal of insight into my own spiritual nature, as well as psychological and sexual grounding. It seems to balance the masculine and feminine in me. Again I hope I don't sound proud. Yet my ego feels no attachment or imbalance, simply affection for a beloved whose life expresses that of the truly Beloved. I think too there are precedents for this type of spiritual love in history and literature which speak to my experience.

At any rate, time will tell because things are bound to develop (or degenerate ) as they usually do in life. I hope the topic is at least interesting to people, although you must forgive my self focus. It might be nice to broaden it out a little, or perhaps others might feel like sharing on similar grounds.

Stephen, please feel free to continue to share your experiences. It's not always clear where you are doing just that or sharing an interpretation, however. Your quote below is an example of what I mean, here.

quote:

It might help if I say I believe my soul had a pre existence before incarnation. Ever since I was a child I've dreamed about this and had memories of pre existence. Nothing I can do to change that. My understanding is that the soul then, without gender as you say, splits and incarnates as male and female, and that the twin flame idea is a reunion. Now I'm not sure about this.

I have highlighted words that make it difficult to sort out the raw data of experience from your interpretation.

quote:

As regards the experience I'm having, I believe it's a connection with another living being. Whether or not she's part of my own soul as it was before incarnation doesn't really matter. The connection is real. There are just too many personal details I've learned about this woman, too many coincidences, and the sense of another living being experiencing sensation in union with me is palpable.

There's more "I believe" along with your reasons, which is natural, as we're all prone to want to understand our experiences. I guess I'm not clear whether you think this is a real, flesh-and-blood woman alive somewhere in the world, or a dis-incarnate one? If the former, then there are a variety of ways to account for the experience. Same goes for the dis-incarnate encounter. As you say, the accounting part might not be so important to you, but "Twin Flame" seems the way you've made sense of it.

As you say, it may take some time to see how things shake out. Please do keep us posted.

Understood, Phil, although coming to the Twin Flame interpretation feels like part of the experience - "it rocked me to my core" when it came to me and deepened the relationship. Understanding something has a way of profoundly affecting it. Very hard not to seek interpretation. Experience and understanding are...twins.

I've considered other interpretations though, most of which left me cold or confused. This one fits. Definitely a living woman, that should be clear. By all means, anyone feel free to offer alternative explanations. I'll try to be open.

Samson, my friend: (Aiyee. It’s me….)

You write:

“coming to the Twin Flame interpretation feels like part of the experience - "it rocked me to my core" when it came to me and deepened the relationship. Understanding something has a way of profoundly affecting it. Very hard not to seek interpretation. Experience and understanding are...twins.”

Not meaning to inhibit your sharing of experiences, nor to denigrate them in any way I do nevertheless disagree with the Twin Flame interpretation of reality (an understanding that is not solely yours nor of your initiation I realize). I sincerely agree with your words (bolded above) that understanding something has a way of profoundly affecting it.

Therefore, with that in mind (and lol, my ever-ready axe of Divine Revelation that you complain I wield tirelessly and narrowly) let me explain my man-on-the-street basis for disagreement with Twin Flame understanding. Hopefully you will consider it. Hopefully that consideration will bless you.

The soul does not split at incarnation. Its pre-incarnate existence, as you’ve termed it, already incorporates gender. When God stated before you were knit in your mother’s womb “Let there be Samson Stephen” He had authored your gender in the issuance of that logos.

I offer you as scriptural evidence for consideration, the passages in Judges concerning the genesis and conception of Samson (non-Stephen) as found in Judges 13: 3-14

Judges 13: 7 –‘he said to me, “You will be with child and will bear a son. So take neither wine nor strong drink, and eat nothing unclean. For the boy shall be consecrated to God from the womb until the day of his death.”

Prior to his incarnation and any splitting upon incarnation, God had predetermined Samson as male. Samson was to be male in body and therefore male in soul. There was no splitting of soul that occurred.upon conception. The same is true of Samson Stephen.

I offer to you as well, without substantial delving into scripture and/or Thomistic theology, the narration concerning the birth of John the Baptist in Luke 1: 11-17.

I offer to you the narration concerning the birth of Jesus in Luke 1: 31-35.

There is a wonderful book titled The Human Soul by Abbott Vonier that readers might enjoy.

Those are my dibs for your consideration, Stephen. Like you say, understanding something has a profound way of affecting our experience and can rock one to the core.

From my rocker (not off my rocker),
Poppington the axe (and friend of young oysters)

p.s. Yes, there’s room for a rocker in my little box that I spring out of now and again --. leave it to Divine Providence to have so equipped me.

p.p.s. I hope you do not take my clowning around as mean-spirited. I assure you it is not.

Dear pop,

My heart burst with love for you when I read this, and I'm writing with a real poignancy in my heart.

I appreciate it, I really do. And I love the narratives you point me to. Always have. The child narratives in scripture are really beautiful. Oh and Psalm 139 which you allude to is truly wondrous!

I can't disagree with these narratives. There's great truth in them. My only question is, does it always have to be that way?

With love and joy,

Stephen

quote:

an outer relationship/ expression of the inner union

Yes, Mary Sue, I think you have it. The relationship is an expression of kundalini energy uniting with consciousness. My head is opening at the crown like a newly leafing tree and I ask Christ and the Holy Spirit in to sanctify it.

I enjoyed your sharing. Your own spiritual duality is very interesting. It's difficult to combine two paths but sometimes culturally necessary, or in my case a dual experience of tantra in the context of Christian faith.

This is a rare type of relationship as you say, but perhaps becoming more common as more people awaken. In a way the soul anthropology or the twin flame term doesn't matter. It is simply an outer expression of an inner union. Lovely. Thank you

You might look into Shamonic relationships.Shamanic marriage????. Not exactly sure what it is called but have read about such things. I was thinking you were talking about someone in another country that you e-mailed ect. It dawned on me that you may not mean that type of relationship.

Stephen,

You ask: Is it always the case – as scripture indicates it was for Samson, John the Baptist and Jesus?

I answer: Yes. The three angelic visits that I provided in my post show that prior to the conception (and the incarnation as you term it) of those three men, God had predetermined them to be male.

God as creator had predetermined that. His “Let there be Samson, John the B.and Jesus” was the expression of his intention and plan as Creator. It was not the consequence of his foreknowledge as an Observer. He had a purpose and a plan for them from the outset. That plan for them was part of His plan for salvation. He hadn’t left their genesis up to some randomness within his permissive will. Those scriptures clearly indicate that their male existence was the Father’s intention -- was His direct will not his permissive will. He had hovered over the chaos of randomness and had then spoken his logos: “Let there be Samson, John the B. and Jesus.”

It is the same for all of us, for you and for me. “You haven’t chosen me, I have chosen you.”

Before you were born, before you were knit in your mother’s womb!

There was no chance involved in your or my gender – despite chromosomic possibility-space.

We are not who we are because of happenstance. We are who we are gender-wise and in many other regards as well -- by God’s decree. You exist by His “Let there be… Stephen!” God never said “Let there be a soul that could be a Stephen or a Stephanie, and I’ll work with whichever Stephen’s father’s sperm decides.”

(Anyway, if you think about it, being omniscient precludes His curiosity as to how things might turn out).

Are you with me, still? Do I make sense despite my man-on-the-street, voice-in-the-narrow box understanding – despite my non-progressive worldview? Does what I have written not ‘ring true’ with your understanding of God based upon Christian scripture? Must I pound? Hey, I am trying to beat my axe into a scalpel.

Now you may quote me Phil, who writes: “Gender is an attribute of biology, not spirit.” I disagree with him on that, it would seem. The human soul, its activating principle bears the gender attributes that attend its biology. I think he has erred there—being human and all. The COCC, which he typically and rightly calls upon, states: 365 -- “The unity of the soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the ‘form’ of the body.” and per 366 – “The church considers that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God – it is not ‘produced’ by the parents.” That would mean that it is not in any way split at its incarnation.

Therefore, dear Stephen, imo, you need to reconsider your understanding of your experience and accommodate the rejection of Twin Flame considerations. This is – as you attest yourself -- a profoundly important issue.
******************************************************************
That said, let’s move on a tad.

You had written: “As regards the experience I'm having, I believe it's a connection with another living being. Whether or not she's part of my own soul as it was before incarnation doesn't really matter. The connection is real. There are just too many personal details I've learned about this woman, too many coincidences, and the sense of another living being experiencing sensation in union with me is palpable.” (Bolding mine; and btw, she certainly could not have been part of your own soul! Here you are entering Derek’s faux pas in a sense. He now thinks of a cosmic self which is somewhat different than you – you have not gone quite as far in your variance, but nevertheless personal judgment and personal responsibility which are creedal in Christian understanding, obviate both double and cosmic souling.) We all have a unique soul and a unique gifting and unique responsibility against which we each will be personally not collectively nor doubly judged. Any other understanding, while tolerated for those not exposed to the gospel is not permissible within authentic Christianity.

On 4 Jan 13 @ 4:57 PM: re Phil’s related question – “I guess I'm not clear whether you think this is a real, flesh-and-blood woman alive somewhere in the world, or a dis-incarnate one?” You responded: “Definitely a living woman, that should be clear.” (Bolding mine)

On 4 Jan 13 @ 12::53 PM, you wrote: “I think too there are precedents for this type of spiritual love in history and literature which speak to my experience.” (Bolding mine)

In your initial post on this thread, you wrote: “I'm wondering if it's possible to consider the idea of a multidimensional Self.” and you also mention : “extensions of myself in various existences, places, timelines,” (Bolding mine)

The first experience is of a loving, sexual, distant soul contact with a female which has been going on for 2 years now and which is deeply spiritual and leading me into a more loving and heightened (awakened?) consciousness. (Bolding mine)

The second experience is of some pretty real, strange, bizarre, sometimes creepy, sometimes pleasant, ET contact, (Bolding mine)

Stephen, I am not a professional psychodile as are Phil and Shasha. I do not know the boundary between multidimensionality and multiple personality. I say this in love, my brother, you are at or near the threshold requiring deliverance from the hold that this deep spiritual sexual love with this female living being is evidently pulling you into, into its wake. Reject and renounce its/her hold on you now. Disavow its/her attraction – strong as it may be. Sweet as it may be. Only a decision of your will is required.. Ask Christ’s intervention and deliverance. He it is you burn for. That’s what you’ve ALREADY WRITTEN! Not she…HE! You have decided to follow Christ! Your love is for Him!
AMEN TO THAT! Let her go wherever she wants. You burn for Christ Jesus. That’s what you’ve already attested to. He alone is Lord. He alone is YOUR LORD! You have decided to follow Jesus.

BE FREE MY BROTHER! And do not look back on your decision.

Axe,....Oyster lover,
Poppington

Pop,

I know you speak lovingly and I'm glad of that. I value it.

The first half of your post is fine. My poetic soul was carried away with the twin flame term because it spoke of a soulmate connection which this feels a lot like. I don't need to understand it in terms of a split soul. These things are full of mystery, fear and wonder as King David said. I'm happy to think of it as a soul connection from pre existence, with my own soul safely and individually wrapped by the Creator.

As for the multidimensional thing, please don't see it as incipient multiple personality syndrome or anything so psychoanalytically reductive. It just isn't.

Now...deliverance. One might as well ask to be delivered of kundalini. From the beginning of my k awakening, some 20 years ago, through strange connections and attempts at healing, I've always asked The Lord to deliver me from evil (even in its sweetest guises), and here too, as this experience began, I asked him to keep me. In fact he isn't working through deliverance but allowing me to move through things in order to grow. He is deepening my love for him and for my neighbour through this connection. It's simple. I cannot follow intellect or doctrine or anything else when experience is so beyond that type of understanding. I can only follow my heart. I am strong in this, pop. Adamant, not proud, or foolishly blase. I don't take well to calls of danger, danger when I feel intuitively and insightfully drawn to something, when spiritual love and growth and relationship with the Divine is so obviously the fruit.

Ultimately, if in 6 months time I report back that I've found this woman physically and am living with her happily ever after, we'll know. Or, if in 6 months I report back that I've been wandering the streets crying out for an imaginary succubus, we'll know.

Above all else, however, I'm glad to hear your voice.

Stephen,

“if in 6 months I report back that I've been wandering the streets crying out for an imaginary succubus, we'll know.”

Well my friend, what can I say to you then, except that (imo) you are already crying out for an imaginary succubus, one who has been cutting Samson’s hair for two years now – one who is the Walrus, Oyster, and not the living woman you believe her to be.

Except that I don’t know that you have six months to waste in more wandering. I kind of like the “Now is the acceptable time” framing of things.

You write that: “spiritual love and growth and relationship with the Divine is so obviously the fruit”. But I read of “extensions of myself in various existences, places, timelines,” and I read also of ET contacts now entering the picture.

How can I believe that this is good fruit? How can I believe that this momentum is growth and not dissolution?

You write that you burn with an ever increasing love for Jesus your Creator. But your Creator, Jesus – who was in the beginning with God and is God never taught of various existences, places and timelines that we live in – in reality (versus in our imagination). On the contrary.

Extensions of yourself? …one wounded self isn’t enough? Other universes that you also write about? ….one infinite universe isn’t enough?

How can I believe that your belief and your defense of your belief is viable growth—is integrating versus disintegrating?

I don’t see it Stephen.

Your intellect and will are the vehicles for your deliverance -- as you are aware. When imagination and feelings rule over intellect and will --- one moves into the realm of toast.

As you have written, understanding something has a way of profoundly affecting things..

Best wishes for a Happy New Year, Stephen (in this universe anyway). I won’t be pushing you and neither would the Lord. One walks as one chooses, that’s for sure.

Sincerely,
Poppington

You don't see it because you don't know me and yet you presume to make judgements about my spiritual health and the nature of my experience based on the minimal information I give you. Same old same old. And mind blowingly arrogant. In referring to the succubus I was throwing you a bone. I'm glad you took it. It confirmed my suspicions.

Your Christianity is medieval, pop. Science postulates infinite universes and multi dimensions. Remember Galileo? A holistic anthropology confirms the interconnectedness of all living beings and yet you blindly grab at medieval folklore. But mostly it's your arrogance, pop, mostly it's your arrogance.

You're right, let's nip it in the bud.

Samson,

You write that you are adamant. I believe you.

You write of a succubus. I believe you.

Anyway, after two years of sexual bonding with her I didn’t think you would readily cotton to the idea of divorce.

Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25 are reiterations, interestingly.
Perhaps the reiteration is inspired in its providing two opportunities for a reader to reflect on the import of its content. They state: “Sometimes a way seems right to a man, but the end of it leads to death!”

The Lord be with you.

Nipped in Jersey

Bliss,

To postulate means to assume something is true as a basis for discussion or in this case exploration, which is what you then go on to say science does.


Re.pop's last comment:

It seems I've been condemned to death.

What we have now is an example of the worst type of extremism masking itself as piety and concern. Judgement and condemnation rising out of ignorance. The false assumption of authority and understanding based on mere opinion.

How can we be expected to share things here if this is the response we get?

I'm thoroughly disgusted.