This is a topic that comes up often during spiritual direction. People wonder what the God-dimension of their experience is.

Sometimes they've no doubt about it, as God's presence is almost tangible. Most of the time, however, their sense of God is as "in the background," and difficult to describe.

How would you describe the God-dimension of your experiences?

I'll be joining in the discussions soon, but how about someone start us off.

Ok Phil... I'll bite.

You called ever so softly
In the wind rustled leaves,
Doves cry and loon call,
Morning birdsung matins
And sunset splendor.

You kissed me in the waters
Of the sea and the raindrops
Dancing on the pavement;
In dewdroped dawns
And on snow covered mountains.

I held you in my hand
As I was held in yours
One day in perfect freedom.
You released me to fly free
To you among the roses.

In pine forests we walked
Stream side, singing
With angels and saints
A silent song heard
Only by the deer.

I gazed on you
In silence;
Hand held eyes
Meeting eyes in
Perfect harmony.

I met you in your city
Walking among your people
Guiding and being guided,
Comforting and taking comfort
As we raised our voices in thanksgiving.

You led me into the desert
Teaching of plenty in nothingness,
Majesty in poverty,
Holy suffering; sacred and
Life affirming pain.

You emptied me of myself
And then filled me with blessings
Innumerable, indescribable,
Killing me only to raise me
To new life in you.

Peace,
Wanda

That's really nice, Wanda!

What struck me was the "You" in your verses. I suppose it's this sense of a living before a "You" that is a big part of the God-dimension of your experience. Perhaps you'd like to say something about that? I hope so.

Here are some of the things that I believe point to a God-dimension of my experience. I also use these to help spiritual directees identify their own.

Serenity. I think the God-dimension is a serenity which the world cannot take away--a peace which surpasses all understanding. This serenity sustains our souls, preventing us from becoming totally consumed by anxiety and preoccupation. I believe this serenity is Christ's own peace, which we are privileged to participate in as one of the fruits of his death, resurrection, and ascension. One can know the serenity without this kind of belief, so I'm not saying that only Christians can have it. The serenity is already there, to be enjoyed by those who stop disturbing themselves and cast their hearts and minds into its sustenance.

Will-to-love. Might as well add the will-to-goodness as well. Here I'm talking about a level of willingess deep within--deeper than our own personal desires and preferences--which seems to simply be "there." I believe this flow of agape is the Holy Spirit, won for the human race by Christ, and flowing through the heart of creation to renew creation in Christ. Again, one can accees this "willingness" without the belief I've shared; Buddhists call it compassion, for example.

Transcendence. No matter what we have or have realized, it always seems that there is "something more" to be realized. Human consciousness has a horizon which, no matter how far we travel on the journey, seems to stretch ahead, calling us onward and upward. We can stop for awhile and enjoy where we are, and that's OK. Still, the horizon beckons, and unless we get overly caught up in the "cares of the world," our awareness of this horizon can always be known. I believe this points to God the Father, the unmanifest One and Creator of the universe. One can know the horizon without this belief, but the belief has given me a way to relate to the One Who is always saying, "Friend, come up higher."

Awareness. This one might surprise many, for it's not often discussed in Christian spirituality, but I've come to believe that awareness itself belongs to God. This is not to deny the experiences of personal awareness and subjectivity, but the awareness by means of which we know this does not belong to us. It is God's own knowing in us, which enables our own self-understanding in God. One may come to the experience of the non-personal or transpersonal dimension of awareness outside of Christianity and theism, so my words about God say more about how I understand the experience, than that experience itself.

I'll stop here to see what reactions some of you might have, and what other kinds of experiences you might like to list. I didn't repeat Wanda's affirmation of living before a "You" or "Thou" because I think she said it so very well.

<<I think the God-dimension is a serenity which the world cannot take away--a peace which surpasses all understanding. This serenity sustains our souls, preventing us from becoming totally consumed by anxiety and preoccupation. The serenity is already there, to be enjoyed by those who stop disturbing themselves and cast their hearts and minds into its sustenance.>>

Hi Phil,

While I agree that the serenity is there, to be enjoyed by those who stop disturbing themselves, I think that MANY PEOPLE are disturbing themselves MOST OF THE TIME. And unless they are willing to do some inner work of some kind, they will continue to disturb themselves. I guess I don't see how joining the Catholic Church, going through the RCIA process, and then attending Mass and receiving the sacraments will have any affect on the way that most people habitually go through life disturbing themselves.

I guess I don't see very many people enjoying this serenity. How come???

More on your post later. Good discussion starter!!

Anne

Anne, doing all those "religious" kinds of things you mention are good, but in the absence of a spirituality which deals with one's inner life, attachments, beliefs, intentions, etc., it doesn't have much effect.

Those kinds of "exoteric" practices are meant to form a kind of receptivity to God. The communal apsects also do communicate God's Spirit in a tangible way to many as well--it's maybe how they first get the idea that there really is a loving God. And the teachings help the mind to begin to be open to new ideas about God and the inner life.

But you're right, if that's all that one does, then one doesn't get to taste very deeply of the peace which Christ promised us.

<<Anne, doing all those "religious" kinds of things you mention are good, but in the absence of a spirituality which deals with one's inner life, attachments, beliefs, intentions, etc., it doesn't have much effect.>>

Yes, so why DOESN'T the church do anything to guide people in the direction of that sort of spirituality? (In my opinion, it doesn't.) I don't know any lay people who have spiritual directors. NONE. I only see the church directing people to get more involved in some sort of serving capacity (poor, elderly, etc.) or to get more involved in liturgies (choir, greeter, lector, etc.) or to contribute more financially.

I don't see the church directing people towards a spirituality of any kind. For example....you may be told not to gossip, that gossiping is a sin, but you are never challenged to ask yourself WHY you gossip. It's been my experience, that if you get a lot of "stuff" straightened out inside yourself, you won't NEED to gossip.

Anne

<<Awareness. This one might surprise many, for it's not often discussed in Christian spirituality, but I've come to believe that awareness itself belongs to God. This is not to deny the experiences of personal awareness and subjectivity, but the awareness by means of which we know this does not belong to us. It is God's own knowing in us, which enables our own self-understanding in God.>>

Phil, could you explain this a bit more. Give an example perhaps? I'm not clear just what you mean by awareness. Awareness of what?

Anne

I agree that spirituality isn't always as emphasized in the common activities of Church life as much as it should be. Faith is, of course, and so it's just a short step to stress ongoing faith development as the spiritual journey. Some Church leaders themselves need to be more conscious of this; it's not necessarily that they're holding anything back.

quote:

Phil, could you explain this a bit more. Give an example perhaps? I'm not clear just what you mean by awareness. Awareness of what?

Ahh, that's a trick question, isn't it?

I mean simply awareness, which is hardly ever known "as such" by most people. Usually it's as you put it: "Awareness-of." So the best I can do here is say "Awareness of Awareness," if that makes any sense.

-------------------

The examples given above are more or less contemplative kinds of experiences of the God-dimension of experience, and so they might not be all that easy for some to understand or relate to.

Here's another one that I think is much more common, and that is how Faith itself colors one's experience. Wanda mentioned this sense of a "You" or "Thou" Whom one lives before, and that is a definite fruit of faith. There are other examples, I'm sure, such as how faith contributes a sense of meaning and direction to one's life. What I'm suggesting is that Faith is a kind of experience of God; it's not just our own believing, but God holding us in a stance of believing.

Makes sense?

Hi Phil,

To answer your question - or try anyhow: "What struck me was the "You" in your verses. I suppose it's this sense of a living before a "You" that is a big part of the God-dimension of your experience."

It is not so much a living before as a living with. I grew up with the understanding- was taught as a child that God is truly everywhere... not only in church and maybe that has something to do with my "experience" of God... maybe made it a little easier to "see" him everywhere..... as a part of all creation.... as close as the air I breathe. So for me God is personal... intimate... and yet, I know that I cannot "own" him or "control" him.... any more than I can own or control the wind or the seasons.
God will be what God will be... and that is what makes the relationship so incredible sometimes.... so almost unbelievable.

All of your pointers... peace, will-to love, transcendence, and an awareness that we do not instigate are a part of my experience - flow from my experience but I would like to add one more.... transformation. Anyone care to speak to that?

Peace,
Wanda

I've been thinking a lot about this topic and the listing you gave, Phil, and the responses to it so far.

I guess, for me, all the things you listed tie into another thread about "Why Christianity". To me, all of those things ARE found in Christianity.
And are a part of the God dimension.

I particularly like the Awareness you mention. In my Christian walk, this probably defines, for me, more of the God dimension than any of the others. I used to have a T-shirt that said "In the beginning, God"..of course being the beginning of the first sentences of Genesis. God "is". How can we define His presence? I'm not sure we can...and isn't that the place that really is the God dimension? It's like being in touch with something, someone, someplace that defies description in our feeble human terms..yet is so completely tangible and touchable so as to be almost like another "skin" we live in.

This is a good topic and one that promotes a lot of thought and seeking...thanks!

Many blessings,
Terri

Wow...this is a good topic.
Ann - you ask awareness of what... and that is just the problem that the church has struggled with forever I think.... defining God... trying to define, explain what cannot be defined or explained but perhaps only experienced. Terri really hit the nail on the head for me:

"It's like being in touch with something, someone, someplace that defies description in our feeble human terms..yet is so completely tangible and touchable so as to be almost like another "skin" we live in."

I would have to add an awareness of something that is so much more than we are.... that is in charge... and this awareness brings - for me anyhow, the serenity... the peace.

For me the serenity that Phil spoke of is more than a quieting of the mind... although that is a big part of it. For me it is more of a feeling of security... of letting go... a freedom.

Anne... I may be a bit backward but I did not come to this awareness in the church.. it was the awareness that brought be back to the church and let me "see" his presence there. I agree the church often does a poor job of fostering spirituality... and I agree with Phil that it isn't something that's held back... it's there in the liturgy, the music, the tradition but not something that is pointed out often... but then getting people to church on Sunday for an hour is rough..and pastors/priests have little time between all of the other duties/functions maybe to give to this... which is why I really feel that the laity needs trained and used for more than they are now. But that's another topic.

Peace,
Wanda

For me the serenity that Phil spoke of is more than a quieting of the mind... although that is a big part of it. For me it is more of a feeling of security... of letting go... a freedom.

OH...amen to that! It's like being able to take a big breath of air...relaxation...dependence on Him. Being able to look at all the "stuff" going on around me and truly knowing deep inside my spirit person that this really IS temporal. You said a mouthful there!!

Thanks and God bless,
Terri

Amen to all of the affirmations of this thread. It is a depthful topic. Although I have not contributed to it, I have turned over the ideas and experiences expressed in your posts, meditatively and prayerfully, each day. Some points that have been raised seem intertwined with the other thread wherein we discussed the creative tension between catechesis and evangelization, between doctrine and experience.

As I prepare to do the Spiritual Exercises on my upcoming Ignatian retreat, and toward the end of helping us all understand how the God-dimension unfolds in our lives, I commend to you this website, to which a friend referred me for the first time, just today: Apostleship of Prayer - Spirituality, as run by Fr. Rick Malloy, SJ.

The one thought that has remained with me in my consideration of this thread has to do with spiritual formation. I know there has been more emphasis on prayer and experience and evangelization in catechesis nowadays and I believe that is good. And I agree that maybe more could be done to increase people's awareness of the various avenues of spirituality. There is an additional ingredient I want to consider below.

I want to share one dynamic that I have been very much in touch with in my "experience of the God dimension" and see if others of you discern the same pattern in your lives or in the lives of others you have known. I will use an agricultural analogy (so, Terri, make corrections ).

To a large extent, my early formation by parents or catechists involved the planting of the seed, an instilling of the Word within me. Clearly, there were very formative experiential aspects gifted me by family and church, but my emphasis here is on the seed planting, that is, the teaching and doctrine.

My experience has been that these early seed plantings, for the most part, lay dormant. They can remain dormant for a very, very long time, even, without losing their vitality. Sure, a few sprout and even take hold, but the biggest part of the "crop" remains seed.

In this seed stage, there's not much that takes place in the way of germination until that dormancy is broken and the very ground of my existence is turned over. The dormancy is broken by experiencing life's bitter cold and its alternating periods of incredible darkness and brilliant blinding light. The ground is broken by pain and suffering and oppression. Life's circumstances, things that we can never plan, appear to providentially play a very large role in our spiritual transformation. It is almost as if our people, our family and church, can contribute to our formation and even reformation, but that our transformation ultimately requires such heat and cold, acidity and alkalinity, and darkness and light, as can only be obtained by factors, like life's stormy weather, as are outside of our control (except insofar as we bumble and stumble our way into such situations ).

Now, to a certain extent, we can find a squall, a hurricane, a blizzard or tornado, even, simply by getting involved with other people --- raising a family, working a job, going to school, joining this or that ministry The dormancy of the seed seems to get broken in the wonderful turmoil of human relationships, in the turbulence resulting from the encounter of that high pressure system of our own needs with the low pressure system of others' needs. I really question how much transformation and seed germination can take place without the self-transcendence that gets imposed on us, forced on us by our encounter with those whom we most find a bother, most consider insignificant, most experience as too very needy.

The God dimension of my experience has been planted in the seed of my formation, in the fairest of weather and most delightful of spring and autumn days. The God dimension of my experience has broken its dormancy and germinated during the bitter cold of winter or the scorching days of summer. It has taken root only in community and has led to some measure of growth and transformation by circumstances that have been largely out of my control.

To some extent, I believe that few feel called to move from the exoteric practices to the more esoteric practices and experiences. Life seems to quite naturally provide all the nurturance of our seed that any of us can tolerate. I remain curious, though, and I know some of you do, too. Can I dig deeper? Can I reach higher?

What spirituality might I pursue, from this day forward, that will break the dormancy of the Word planted in my heart yet ungerminated? What circumstances might I willingly place myself in, mindful of my own temperament and charisms, that might take me out of my comfort zone and break open the ground of my life, that might increase His harvest and give the greatest possible glory to God (AMDG)?

My dormancy was broken in sibling interactions growing up, in girlfriend struggles, in disillusionments provided by academic and work careers, in peer and retreat and music ministry difficulties, in marriage and parenting challenges, in struggles with angst and death, in threats to reputation, in excessive pursuits of profit or pleasure --- in other words, in just the run-of-the-mill, living in America, sort of way. The only real growth spurts, for me, seemed to have come after being rained on. The memories of the planting days, of those who generously spread the seed and planted the Word in me, are like rays of sunlight gifting me with a rainbow's promise of new growth after every storm.

Isaiah 55
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
12 You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree, and instead of briers the myrtle will grow. This will be for the Lord 's renown,
for an everlasting sign, which will not be destroyed."

The Word will not remain a tacit dimension of existence, does not realize its end in nonenergetic causation, is not destined to be mere logical or formal cause --- but IS made flesh and DWELLS among us. The Word's dormancy is broken and blessed by the very Creation, which blesses us even as it breaks us, in an eternal fugue of pattern and paradox, of greater revelation and deeper mystery, in Corpus Christi. Howzat for experience, challenge and choice?

One Saint Catherine (Sienna or Genoa, I forget) is said to have asked Jesus why so much suffering was necessary for our transformation and He reportedly replied: "If there was a better way I would have thought of it long ago". In my life, there has been no better way.

I will remember y'all in prayer on retreat.

pax tibi,
jb

JB! Oh my goodness...you've really been getting in spiritual mode for this retreat haven't you? This post was incredible! Thank you!

No corrections to make on the agricultural analogy and it is so right on. Everything you said, for me anyway, is how I see it. Each moment of each day holds..who knows what..that will "disturb" the ground and bring about germination.

I understand the desire to dig deeper and reach higher. Though I crave it, I have to admit that there's a tiny bit of fear in exactly what might come when I pray for that. I say tiny bit because I know that whatever comes, God already has it mapped out and will lead me, pull me, carry me, push me through it. I suppose there's something waiting for each of us that goes outside our comfort zone and takes us to a higher plane. I pray for it all the time...but at the same time pray for God to draw me closer to Him, conform me more and more.

God bless you and I can't wait to hear from you after the retreat. Gosh...I'm kinda envious!

Terri

Yes, I, too, have enjoyed the interactions on this thread, and the different kinds of insights offered. JB, that reflection on the seed and its growth was very fine. Have a good retreat.

-----------

I'll now add another pretty obvious factor, and let's see how it resonates with the others.

Contingency. By this, I mean the fact that we don't give ourselves existence, but that our life is something received, or given. Just to reflect a little on this most common of all experiences can provide another kind of experience of God as "implied-Source" of life and existence.

This is not a very big seed and it doesn't necessarily lead one to the knowledge of God as love or even Personal Presence, but for those who have faith, it's an ever-present reminder of the basic condition in which we find ourselves.

Hi all...

You know, just reading and reflecting on all of your posts has been a form of retreat for me.
Thank you all!

phil.... you spoke of contingency:
"By this, I mean the fact that we don't give ourselves existence, but that our life is something received, or given. Just to reflect a little on this most common of all experiences can provide another kind of experience of God as "implied-Source" of life and existence."

I think the experience of this is a big part of being able to experience serenity. As Terry said, "OH...amen to that! It's like being able to take a big breath ofair...relaxation...dependence on Him."

As long as we think we are in control we feel a need to control... to remake creation if you will.... instead of care for it.

Contingency for me implies an understanding of place... of our role/position/job in the order of things... in creation... both our importance and at the same time our irrelevance to it all.
What does everyone else think here?
Peace,
Wanda

Contingency. By this, I mean the fact that we don't give ourselves existence, but that our life is something received, or given. Just to reflect a little on this most common of all experiences can provide another kind of experience of God as "implied-Source" of life and existence.
This is not a very big seed and it doesn't necessarily lead one to the knowledge of God as love or even Personal Presence, but for those who have faith, it's an ever-present reminder of the basic condition in which we find ourselves.

Actually Phil, to me, this is one of the biggest seeds..for those who have faith. In understanding WHO is the giver of Life, we being to understand what grace is...what Sovereignty is....what sacrifice is...and what dependence is.

As Wanda said:
Contingency for me implies an understanding of place... of our role/position/job in the order of things... in creation... both our importance and at the same time our irrelevance to it all.

There is something major there...our importance..at the same time our irrelevance. That's a great statement. Being humble enough to know we're irrelevant while at the same time being assured of our importance to God.

Great stuff!
God bless,
Terri

Here's another one:

Conscience. Our basic sense of what's right and wrong in a particular situation. "Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that s/he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has laredy completed." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1778)

Obviously, conscience has to be formed, but so does faith, and the capacity to love, both of which help us awaken to the God-dimension of experience.

Conscience, here, is not simply the "Superego" of Freud and Jung, with its Parent-tapes of what we "should" or "shouldn't" do. It's our basic moral sensitivity, which opens us to moral guidance from Above.

"Conscience is a law of the mind; yes [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat, and a promises . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ." (John Henry Cardinal Newman)

This all makes sense to me as a Catholic, and doesn't necessarily end up endorsing Papism. I wonder how it sounds to others, especially non-Catholics? Is conscience, for you, a kind of encounter with God? Is even the guilt produced from going against conscience a part of the God-dimension of our experiences?

Is conscience, for you, a kind of encounter with God? Is even the guilt produced from going against conscience a part of the God-dimension of our experiences?

Hi Phil,
To answer those questions...yes and yes...lol Though I believe most of us are born with a basic sense of right and wrong, this sense can become skewed and subjective. For me, as a believer, God keeps my conscience "in check". I really think it can even be a basis for discernment. It's as though when I attempt to do something that deep down I know is against God, my conscience speaks to me empowered by the Holy Spirit. Not only weighing things against the idea of right and wrong...but against the reinforcing of right and wrong from a spiritual standpoint.
As for guilt, I believe it is a good thing most of the time. Granted, guilt can be taken to an extreme, but there's a reason we feel it. Sometimes that guilt is unfounded by the accuser of the brethren...the roaring lion who roams seeking to destroy those whom he may. However, on the other side of that is guilt that is divinely inspired to make us examine ourselves and our actions. By calling on God to show me the reason for the guilt, I am sometimes amazed at the answers.

Ultimately, I believe, that by looking to God in every aspect of our life, He shapes us....continuing to show us our faults and the changes needed along this path of being conformed to the image of Christ.

God bless,
Terri

I appreciate all posts in this thread, but feel that I resonate most with Wanda's statement that she feels God is within all creation. And nice, poem, too, Wanda.

I believe that there is something of the Divine in all creation, even that which I don't like or appreciate.

Acting on this belief has challenged many people down through the ages, however, the intent and the attempt at the spiritual discipline of recognizing the Divine within is important.

Praying for one's enemies comes under this heading, I believe. And if we go even further to include all of creation in our prayers, we are, in fact, acknowledging our connection to all of creation as well as God within us.

(This is not to say that I don't sometimes pray for a last-minute goal or some other positive outcome. )

shanti

Terri, I relate very much to your comments about conscience, guilt, and God forming us through our openness to guidance. It sounds like you've come to some sense of the difference between an unhealthy guilt which crushes the spirit, and a healthy guilt which moves one to change. The latter might even be considered part of the God-dimension of experience--part of our sense of God through conscience. Would you mind sharing a little how you distinguish between unhealthy and healthy guilt?

quote:

I believe that there is something of the Divine in all creation, even that which I don't like or appreciate.

I've heard many people share this through the years, shanti. What's that like for you? What is it about creation that suggests or communicates a God-dimension to you?

For me, creation is often the means by which I am transported to a sense of wonder, or an appreciation of beauty. Of course, there is also a kind of impersonal struggle for survival going on in all created things (including us), and this sometimes seems to negate my sense of God in creation. I know that this needs to be considered in the context of a "big picture"--of God bringing forth the creation through this struggle. My 9 years of biology in the universities left me with mixed judgments, here. It's easy enough to have a sense of God awakened by a beautiful sunset, or mountain range--a little harder when considering the Black Widow female killing her "husband" after mating with him. Ugh!

Ah, yes, conscience, the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.

I resonate with appeals to nature but so do Social Darwinists. The formation of conscience is quite the problematical consideration? N'est pas?

Nice discussion.

pax,
jb

shanti (not a biologist) here

I think how one sees the god-dimension in and/or through creation depends to some degree on whether one believes in a god-within or a god-without.

As for the black widow spider. Not pretty, for sure. If we look at the behavior with human expectations, we see nothing but a life of brutal one-night stands. But if we look at it from the perspective of black widow spider hard wiring, we see that the black widow spider is actually leading a perfect life (something I can't say for myself within my species ). In this respect, I see the god-dimension.

Since I can't go very far in a biologist mode, I'd like to bring the conversation back to human beings. I remember some wisdom my mother gave me when I was young. At the time I wasn't quite ready to accept her wisdom, but over the years I have come to understand what she was trying to teach me. We were discussing a despot of the times. I don't remember her exact words, so I have to go with the gist of what I remember and what I have come to understand.

She said that we are all looking for love and wanting to give love, but that some of us fail to love and honor the good in ourselves and fail to love and honor the good in others *first,* consequently, the search for love becomes inauthentic and often ends up creating situations in which love itself cannot be honored and baser emotions are actually nourished more than the higher ones. Given that we were talking about a brutal dictator, it was a bit hard to imagine that he had any love within to honor, but I think I get her point now.

In essence, I believe that the god-dimention is within each human being and we chose how to go forward with that (in Christian terms, "free will"). We can honor that god-dimension or try to keep it out of our consciousness. We can also honor the god-dimension within someone else without having to agree with what he or she is going.

To this end, I try to pray for everyone. I'm making a big claim here, and I don't want people to think I'm such a wonderful person that I can actually feel love toward all of creation or that my prayers for everyone are the same, or that there aren't times when my prayer isn't simply "God please love this person because right now I just can't."

Or even that I don't have to wait a while and/or remind myself of my commitment to pray for all of creation. Some situations test even the most adored of our ideals.

As for those beautiful sunsets....I had somewhat of a union with god once looking at a beautiful sunset, and then I also had a little dose of human-dimension reality when I realized that some of the really great sunsets I've seen were more beautiful because of the pollution in the air.

shanti

Would you mind sharing a little how you distinguish between unhealthy and healthy guilt?

Hi Phil,
Well...I'll give her a go and see what comes out here...lol. I was trying to formulate in words what it is exactly that does allow me to distinguish between these two guilts. I think it's the inner reaction to it. If it's an unhealthy guilt, it feels dark and foreboding as though I need to fear it...or hide from it. Actually it can even manifest itself in a sense of "coldness" about my personal space...for lack of a better description. This coldness is not of God and I recognize it as the accuser. If it's a healthy guilt, it is more of a sorrow and pain for a wrong I've done. I have no need to hide from it or fear it...I have need to correct it, if possible. It's as though I sense a still small voice saying something like...now you know that wasn't very Christ-like, would your Lord reaaaaally behave like that? (be honest)...lol.

I guess to illustrate it I can use an example of something that happened recently. I have an online friend that is one of those people that just doesn't allow you to come real close...you know what I mean? I had begun to sort of shun this person because I was getting some vibes that I didn't like. After a time it was as though a deep sorrow suddenly stabbed my heart and I knew I had to go to this person and apologize for my actions because he is my brother in Christ and part of the body of Christ and when I misbehave toward someone who is my brother, then I am in essence doing it to Christ. Sooooo I asked forgiveness. Now this person had no clue that I'd been thinking these things, but in his graciousness, accepted my apology and granted forgiveness. This was a healthy guilt. Ironically it ended up with him baring a very real trauma he was experiencing spiritually, so my personal belief is that God used that instance to open a door for bearing up each other's burdens.

An example of unhealthy guilt would be a frame of mind I got in about yet another friend. Thinking to myself what a fool I'd been because I'd trusted this person and had actually considered that they were a loving friend when I should be focusing everything on Christ. This person hadn't done a THING to warrant my thoughts like that...it was just a frame of mind brought on, I believe, because the spiritual closeness I have with this person results in amazing conversations and experiences with the Holy Spirit. I knew in pretty quick order that this frame of mind was an effort to bring my thoughts to a fabricated notion of being less than worthy of this person's friendship....dark, forboding and making me fearful of that relationship. Feeling guilty that I'd somehow placed stock in a friendship and that I was also somehow taking away from God by doing so. This was a guilt that I threw out the window because I recognized it as a rock placed in the road to hinder a true and spiritual gift from God through the friendship of this person.

Hmm well this turned out rather lengthy, but it's hard to put in just a couple words exactly what I'm trying to convey. And to be honest, it is sometimes not always easy to distinguish between the two types of guilt at first. However, I believe that as time goes on, God will direct us in this if indeed we are seeking to move past self and self's guidance...to God and God's guidance.

That'll teach ya to ask!!!...LOL!