Hi Shanti,

I wanted to say a couple of things to you. First, I have enjoyed your posts. You exhibit a depth of thoughtfulness that is rare to see these days..thank you!

Also I wanted to comment on this statement of yours.
As for those beautiful sunsets....I had somewhat of a union with god once looking at a beautiful sunset, and then I also had a little dose of human-dimension reality when I realized that some of the really great sunsets I've seen were more beautiful because of the pollution in the air.

I think that's really wonderful. Even though the pollution was there you still saw the beauty of the sunset...which may even exhibit the character of God that allows us to see beauty through the dark times. Seeing beyond the obvious obstacle or fog to the truth of the beauty is a wonderful thing. Thanks again!

Terri

Boy, oh boy! and Girl, oh girl! does it ever take courage to share depthful personal experiences that serve to illustrate the difference between healthy and unhealthy guilt! I am deeply moved, Terri, Shanti and others. I truly, truly am. I am really feeling ya as my college kids say.

However, I'm not going to reciprocate just yet but I did want to introduce another distinction that is often made between one type of guilt and/or fear and another; that is the existential versus the neurotic.

I will say this much, though, on the personal level; the following reflection is part of a much larger reflection that was born of significant suffering (how else does poetry get inspired?).

Proceeding Through Darkness to Light

to awake each morning and ask
"what does life demand of me ?" might be the path to growth, now-here , while
to awake each morning and ask
"what can i demand of life ?" is a path to nowhere

and the psychological pain which we experience along the way may be constructive or useless and the pain may be existential or neurotic

and so we ask ourselves
is my guilt or fear or anxiety constructive, existential, life-giving or otherwise?

and if it is otherwise, we must ask ourselves:

how would i act if i did not have this guilt or fear or anxiety ?

and then we should proceed to act that way ...

think of yourself in a movie theatre, in the front row, with a TRAIN bearing
down

and feel the adrenaline rush and the fight or flight emotions and

think of yourself as either merely gripping the armrest or running from the theatre

or think of yourself on the railroad tracks, ON the tracks, with a TRAIN coming and feel the adrenaline rush and the flight or fight emotions and

think of yourself as merely gripping the rails in fright or running from those tracks

and you'll have, at least, an imperfect notion of the existential versus neurotic ...

and then you'll glimpse the type of healing, wholeness and holiness Jesus offers
for manifold existential versus neurotic episodes in our lives ...the Lord is my
shepherd i shall not fear ...

+++ +++ +++

From Rachel's Hope - on defense mechanisms

quote:

Guilt is sometimes looked at as an emotion that we want to "stamp out." Religious and moral upbringing is often accused of "laying too much guilt on us." While there certainly is unhealthy or neurotic guilt, there is concurrently healthy (existential) guilt. An example of existential guilt sounds like this: "I have executed an act that violates my way of believing and living. I have gone against my inner-truth. I have done something wrong." This produces tension where the psyche or personality is not in harmony with itself or its environment. This is to be separated from neurotic or false guilt when a person is feeling guilty over something that is truly not of his/her doing. Existential or healthy guilt occurs when a person can accept the fact that he/she has gone against his/her moral conscience and needs to do something to make amends.

from a more heady consideration, but powerful:

quote:

... phenomena of anxiety and existential guilt; a phenomenology of anxienty along Heideggerian lines reveals this fundamental mood to be a most basic human experience that discloses Being-towards-death. The finiteness revealed in this experience is not to be viewed negatively, since it also calls attention to the open realm of significant choices to be made. In a person's life, these possibilities to choose from are so vast, however, that there always remains something that human being owes to his existence. This is part of the experience of existential guilt ...

And, saving the best for last , I commend to you In the Midst of Winter by Louise Hageman, O.P. , the most readable and concise resource I have ever come across regarding the possibility of an authentic response to suffering.

Do we ever need a peace that the world canNOT give? That's one reason a personal relationship with Jesus still gets serious consideration nowadays, that is to say in yet another millenium. Also, He alone has the words of eternal life. Accordingly, to whom else can we go?

pax Christi, in more ways than one
jb

Thanks for the compliment, Terri.

I'm probably no more thoughtful than the next person (the edit feature is always a good tool ), although I do try to be intentional in life.

Perhaps the beauty of a discussion board is that it can offer a place to "discuss" whereas day-to-day life often requires more immediacy. I have been poking around on this discussion board, and I find that there is a sense of respect here. There is space for statements of belief, questions, the working through of various issues, and who knows what else. It would be pretty hum-drum if we all just posted our manifestos and left it at that.

shanti the seeker

Hello jb,

Yes, indeed, what does life demand of me? Or as I have often said to myself: This is not the life I would have chosen, but it's the one I have, what am I going to do with it?

*

Jesus sat in the dark and lamented his fate (perhaps a needed release for what he was about to experience) and then he picked himself up and did what he knew he had to do.

I put a little asterisk between those two paragraphs because I had two separate thoughts related to the question, "What does life demand of me?" and I didn't want to set up the Jesus one as following out of my own.

shanti who can't always answer her own question

JB quoted:
From Rachel's Hope - on defense mechanisms

Guilt is sometimes looked at as an emotion that we want to "stamp out." Religious and moral upbringing is often accused of "laying too much guilt on us." While there certainly is unhealthy or neurotic guilt, there is concurrently healthy (existential) guilt. An example of existential guilt sounds like this: "I have executed an act that violates my way of believing and living. I have gone against my inner-truth. I have done something wrong." This produces tension where the psyche or personality is not in harmony with itself or its environment. This is to be separated from neurotic or false guilt when a person is feeling guilty over something that is truly not of his/her doing. Existential or healthy guilt occurs when a person can accept the fact that he/she has gone against his/her moral conscience and needs to do something to make amends.

I've read a lot about guilt....and much of what I've read does try to differentiate between this healthy and neurotic guilt. But...I still have trouble with it all. Though I certainly consider myself a sinner, I rarely feel that I "have executed an act that violates my way of believing and living...or goes against my inner truth."

But, still, I *might* feel guilty for lots of things. I *might* feel guilty for spending too much money on clothes or for eating too much chocolate. I *might* feel guilty for not keeping my house clean all the time. I *might* feel guilty for ordering a carry-out meal instead of cooking. I *might* feel guilty because my son smokes cigarettes. (After all, if I had done a better job raising him, he wouldn't smoke, would he?) I *might* feel guilty because my daughter didn't make the honor roll last quarter. (After all, if I had been a better mother, and kept after her, wouldn't she have kept up those Math and Spanish grades??) (Concrete examples of unhealthy guilt...Phil, do I get some brownie points??)

Should I go on??? (I'm not nearly as neurotic as I sound)

I suppose that I know the difference between healthy and unhealthy guilt...but that doesn't mean that I don't wallow in the unhealthy kind sometimes. I think I sometimes confuse feelings of guilt with feelings of inadequacy...of just plain "not measuring up." Make sense?

Still, I would never go to the confessional and say, "Bless me Father for I have sinned.....I ate two chocolate bars last week and didn't clean my house." (Wonder what the priest would say to that?)

I MIGHT confess that I was weak.....and ask for the grace to be stronger. I MIGHT confess that I was full of sinful pride, and ask for the grace to not compare myself to others. I MIGHT confess that I was gossipy and ask for the grace to not judge other people and their situations.

Anyway.....I've made a great deal of progress on this whole "guilt" thing, but still experience the unhealthy kind periodically.

Anne

Hey JB,

Gosh, I loved those quotes and the poetry!! And I read just the sample of that book?..man oh man...I think I may have to invest in that!

As for sharing such personal examples..it's a tribute to this forum that I feel comfortable enough to do that. Other bulletin boards I'm on get the "clinical" Terri

Thanks for all the goodies!

Anne, I think that we can all relate to what you were saying about having a hard time telling the difference....but it sounds like you're making lots of progress. I know you've posted on other threads about dealing with guilt and it's nice to see you stating that you're learning. Guilt can be a destroyer for sure.

Blessings,
Terri