quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
... It does seem that there is a kind of morality and guidance implicit in unitive experiences,

In contrast to non-dual states of enlightenment, whose bearer may or may not give a rip about morality (depending on their personality/ values formation) or defines morality to suit their own narcissism.

Merton is just great on this topic, and fun to read as well.

Glad you enjoyed the quote, Shasha.

I listened to an interesting talk today given by Deacon Sabatino Carnazzo of the Institute of Catholic Culture.

He was discussing the Catholic teaching on Salvation. He made the point that in Catholicism the emphasis regarding salvation is that God shares His Divine Life with us and that we are incorporated into Christ in a very real way - being His Body.

He kept emphasizing the radical nature of this as people often hear it, but don't really grapple with the metaphysical implications.

If we are truly becoming One with Christ, and sharing in the Divine Nature - Then there is a real sense in which we are being incorporated into the very Life of the Trinity.

It got me thinking...that perhaps certain forms of nonduality are exactly this...perceiving creation with the very mind of Christ. If we are seeing reality with the mind of Christ then it makes sense that we would see 'All things' united in Him.

Col 1:17 - 20: 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Could be, Jacques. On the first page of posts on this discussion, I posted the following, which includes the possibility (#3) you mention, here. The core of the post follows:

quote:

1. Our observational, witnessing consciousness is really the divine, and when we can silence the mind, we discover that this is who we really are. "That are thou." In the light of this realization, all the forms we see about us seem dreamlike and delusional as they are contingent and transitional.

2. Our observational, witnessing consciousness is indeed spiritual, but it is "natural" in the sense that it is a potential intrinsic to our human nature. Our reflective consciousness and its engagement with "duality" is also spiritual in its scope of operation (e.g., higher math, philosophy, theology, arts, music, etc.), but for some reason people don't think this is as pure a manifestation of spirit as our non-reflecting awareness. As spirit, our consciousness is open to the cosmos, and can be formed through certain practices to perceive and appreciate its deep connection with all creatures.
- I have no problem calling this a "natural" experience, and it's what Jim Arraj had in mind regarding some types of enlightenment. Granted, however, we do not experience anything unless God creates us, sustains us in creation, etc. -- but that doesn't count.

3. It could be an example of cosmic Christic mysticism. By this I mean to say that the operation of our human spiritual consciousness is infused with graces that enable us to see-with the divine -- as though the divine uses our human consciousness as an eye or organ through which the divine perceives the creation being manifest. This is different from #2 in that we are affirming a human spiritual consciousness that is being augmented by grace in such manner as to participate in some manner in the divine's own knowing and loving. Classical theology and spirituality would call this a supernatural experience and not merely a natural one.

4. It could also be that our human consciousness is being augmented by demonic influence in such manner that the oneness perceived is meant to seduce one into believing that he or she really is divine ("ye shall be as gods"), and that individuation and/or growth in a personal relationship with God (which is "dualistic") is to be avoided in favor of this "better portion." Shasha and others have described that this was how they felt after rather spectacular experiences of oneness.

As I noted on that post in further comment, the only option I reject out-of-hand is #1.

I suppose why I found it so interesting is that based on this understanding of nonduality it would seem that nondual states could be quite normative for those who fully grasp the significance of divinization and submit/surrender to the process.

Nonduality can truly be claimed as an authentic Christian experience rather than something borrowed from the East or even something common to all people.

I know that's what many of you have been saying all along, but I've been more prone to emphasizing number 2 above.

Jacques,

Re your post comment: 26 Sep 10:43 AM

“If we are seeing reality with the mind of Christ then it makes sense that we would see 'All things' united in Him.”

I would tweak your comment (and perhaps your understanding) a bit, Jacques – since it originated from a discussion of the Catholic understanding of salvation.

God desires ‘All things’ to be united in Him. He doesn’t see that they are, nor should we – since they are not. That would amount to seeing falsely. If ‘All things’ were united in Him, there would be no need for repentance. Yet Christ called for repentance. Indeed, sin is a testament that ‘All things’ are not united in Him. God hates sin; He is not united to it.

Christ knew the hearts of men and that they were not all pure. Christ knew some would reject Him. Some did and do and will. Christ told his followers that they would be hated and persecuted. That kind of indicates that ‘All things’ are not united in Him and He knew that. He would have us see as He saw/sees.

In non-dual moments Christ might give us the understanding of his heart for ‘All things’ (via a rich experience of what HIS love for ‘All things’ is like) -- but what HIS love is for ‘All things’, is not the love that ‘All things’ necessarily have for Him. Men can and some indeed do ‘love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are wicked’.

The Holy Spirit exists in the interrelating, in the responding that is the medium by which love proceeds. If there is no responding going on, then you can know the Holy Spirit (despite the Father’s desires) is being excluded from the mix.

Non-dual moments are nice, they are a form of gusto, they can turbo-charge our emotions and spirit, they can inebriate (a role of the H.S.) but they must not shake loose our intellects (the H.S. is a spirit of truth as well). Non-dual moments must not shake loose our understanding of spiritual reality; of the truths that Divine Revelation provides us. All is not well. One day, yes, after the Second Coming, all shall be well – for those who have donned a proper wedding garment and have run the good race.

For those who have not, Christ tells us that all shall not be well.

In another sense though, All is well now for those who are in Christ and who remain in Christ -- provided they remain in Christ. But that is not the ‘all’ men within your ‘All things’. That is a subset. The members of the Body of Christ who remain in the body via obedience and the omission of serious sin, are a subset both of the Body of Christ and of the totality of humanity as well. God's desire is that ALL men become and remain members of His body -- that all men avail themselves maximally to the degree to which He informs and calls them.

Since love is a free gift, must be a free gift (response), God forces no one. Nevertheless, He has been and will continue to be rejected by some. He stated that in his mention of mass apostasy (as just one example) among many other scriptural texts.

Certainly, there is ample evidence that not all who have experienced non-dual moments have remained in Christ.

Enjoy your non-dual moments and the glimpses they provide, but be sober for the devil is prowling around like a lion and these days leading many to la-la land and not to the kingdom of God. He’s a trickster. Keep your armor on.

Pop-pop

Hi Pop-pop

Sorry, haven't had much time to reply. I meant my statement in a slightly different way and so I feel your reply is a little off base. I will try to re-phrase over the weekend and then perhaps we can continue the discussion.

Jacques If it hasn't already been said you may find some support in the belief of Deification (Greek theosis.

quote:

Originally posted by Jacques:
I suppose why I found it so interesting is that based on this understanding of nonduality it would seem that nondual states could be quite normative for those who fully grasp the significance of divinization and submit/surrender to the process.

Nonduality can truly be claimed as an authentic Christian experience rather than something borrowed from the East or even something common to all people.

I know that's what many of you have been saying all along, but I've been more prone to emphasizing number 2 above.

Oh, i see you already know alot about this
Jacques. I checked and see
there was some discussion on this back in
07.

Jacques,

I had considered as I wrote my post, that indeed you may have been intending a different and valid perspective in your wording. I could see how you might have been meaning what you wrote in a different context.

But I didn’t think it would hurt to post as I did, since I thought what I was writing might be worthwhile to other readers if not for you, and I figured you would handle its content well in any regard (as you have).

So you needn’t spend time writing a clarifying post – unless it pleases you to do so.

Pop-pop

Thanks Pop-pop, no worries then. I agreed with your post in terms of the fact that not all are united with Christ in relationship and that it seems that not all will be. No disagreement from me there

But on a metaphysical level all things are united to Christ as the ground of their being - and it is this vision of reality as dependent on God for it's existence that I was pointing to.

In the final analysis though it is all hypothetical to me since I've never had a non-dual experience.

Blessings.