Great exchange above, Mt. and Stephen! I think the last sentence in your post above is a good summary of the matter, Stephen.

I just want to say that I am following the conversation and finding it helpful. I spent time yesterday discussing duality with my professor who is contextual Cherokee Christian. For him the issue is dualism vs. holism and he considers himself a panentheist. He is a good balance for me in this journey. He is suspect of evolutionary spiritualities and any thing that produces "I am God" as a conclusion. In his thinking Jesus came to make us real human beings in the best sense of what that means. I have found my time around native American ceremonies (both Christian and traditional) produces a relaxed but profound sense of the sacred that is never pretentious and always leaves room for humor.

quote:

. It's not so much that there's no distinction between myself and the chair I sit in, or me and you, but that my self feeds into the collective mind of my family, my town, my country etc, and these group minds feed back into me. And so at different levels, as family, as countrymen, as human beings, we all connect with each other and with our immediate and distant environment. This is how I see unity and interconnectedness working. I don't quite know what philosophical or theological ideas can be drawn from this but it seems to be a metaphysical reality for me at least, and I'd argue that there is a growing awareness of this reality on the planet right now.

i couldn't agree more Stephen.... it may seem to contradict the post i wrote the other day on the 'one voice' thread... but what you have written above , it is also my experience as well.. and i do not see it as a contradiction.

everything exists in profound relationship.. yet i am 'distinct' as is everything / everyone else..there is a 'felt' sense that this awareness is accelerating on the planet among us..for me it is more a by product Of Love, rather than something i focus on .. it simply goes along with the territory of the changes that are happening on the earth and within us at this time... it is like an enhancement of sorts.. nothing we did or 'do' to obtain it..

i see it all as God's grace... opening us more deeply to our interconnection with each other and Him..

I think holism is a good word to describe this, ek. We should ditch duality vs non duality and concentrate on exploring holism .

Christine,

Like you, I'm really interested in how this is working out through the planet right now, and am concerned with the practical ways of living with it in Christ, rather than focussing on too much philosophy...although a little bit of philosophy can be quite stimulating at times .

I also like "holism" better

But when you, Stephen, write about a "group mind", a "species mind" or some universal, cosmic mind, I have a problem with that, because for me the mind means a person and a person means a free agent, responsible for his/her decisions. So philosophically - but also - very realistically! which is what philosophy should be about - what you say would present a grave problem, at least for a Christian thinker.

Philosophers of late antiquity (very holistic! ) were convinced that there is a soul of the whole universe, as well as the soul of all plants and all animals, and that there is also a common, universal mind of all intelligent beings. Plotinus would see individual minds as participating, distinct yet united with those universal, intelligent fields of energy. Is it close to what you think?

Because I think it is impossible to harmonize this with Christian outlook, where the mind is always a mind of someone and this someone is a sort of fundamental reality, because God seems to love more distinct human persons than the planet, the universe etc.

I'd rather see holism differently. It is love which makes individuals "a body" or, as ST. Paul says, "one person in Christ" (Ga 3:28). The Church is like a person (the Bride), but not an actual person. It is because in the Holy Spirit we love God together and desire the same thing: Kingdom of Heaven. Love makes us experience "holism", experience interconnectedness of the minds, but love does not easily dismiss individual boundaries and differences, because love respects freedom.

So I guess that the experience of holism you describe can be understood, in Christian terms in two ways.

1. It is a natural experience of our own soul. Our soul is an image of God, so it is not in our body like a ghost in a box. Because we all ARE, and plants also ARE, and animals ARE, and the whole cosmos IS, we all share in the same Source of Is-ness: God. And because we all ARE, we are true, we are good, we are beautiful etc. A beautiful holism of existence, so to speak. And enlightenment is an experience that we are coming from the common Source, even though we do not know the Source in a personal way.

2. It is an experience of the Holy Spirit, given by grace. The unity of the Church is thanks to this one Spirit who dwells within us and makes us love the same Good. But St. Paul suggested that the whole creation is desiring salvation, speaking as if the whole cosmos was a living being, longing for God. I guess we can understand this as a suggestion that because humanity is so connected with animals, plants, the whole planet and the universe, our unity in the Church is somehow also a unity of everything in the Church or in its Head-Jesus.
This is a holism of love. I sense that this is what you are describing, Stephen, but I'd like to see it as a "ecclesial", supernatural interconnectedness rather than as those circles of minds you wrote about.

I guess those two experiences can be combined (when Phil talks about the cosmic Christ I have a feeling that he describes both metaphysical and ecclesial holism in a single experience). St. Francis of Assisi also seemed to experience to some degree both of these dimensions. See his Canticle of the Sun:

"Be praised, my Lord, through our sister Mother Earth, who feeds us and rules us, and produces various fruits with colored flowers and herbs."

I also think about the hymn from Daniel's book which is in the breviary, where all creation praises God together. There is a sense of unity, even though all those beings, living and not living, intelligent and unintelligent, are enumerated one by one.

Does it make sense to you?

Hi Mt,

I haven't read any Plotinus so I can't really say whether we mean the same thing, but from what you suggest, it sounds similar.

I'm not sure how these ideas are incompatible with Christian thought. The Church seems to me to be an example of group mind and Christ loves the Church. Also, God loves the world, and Christ died for the sins of the world, both its individual participants and, I'd suggest, as a collective whole. It might be said that I love my family, its collective energy, as well as individual members. This is close to what you mean by holism, I think, and no different from what I mean, with the exception that I see it as a metaphysical reality, beyond the constraint of love, in that individual mind can be breached, fractured, caught up in a negative sweep, surrendered, if you like, to group mind, but never wholly lost to it. I might say that the experience of group mind has elements of both light and shade. It can be a joyous surrender to group/cosmic energy (while never losing that individual centre of will), or a negative breakdown of individual consciousness, such as schizophrenics might experience, where elements of group mind or cosmic mind are felt as fracture. Does abuse in families somehow prevent the possibilty of group or family mind?

Is it really mind that makes us free agents anyway? Is it not rather will, so that what makes us individual is how we react/respond/interact with group mind and the individual minds of others. This involves both individual and collective responsibility and opens up the possibilty of one person sharing the karma (for want of a better word) of a family or nation - think Ghandi, and, ultimatley, Christ, bearing the sin of the world. My personhood is my own free will in relationship with everything else that is. How can there possibly be a separation? It participates in Isness with everything else.

I'm getting these ideas from reading a little - Jung's idea of the collective unconscious informs them, I think - but more so from experience, where in my own life, boundaries have been breached beyond my will but also consensually, as I participate in aspects of family mind etc, sense the mood of the nation, experience zietgiest. It just seems like a very natural thing, a holistic experience of energy, and, to my thinking, isn't incompatible with Christian thinking which only has to stretch itself beyond God's love for individuals to a realisation of God's love for nations (Israel, for example), and ultimately the universe, the creation as a whole.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: samson,

I reread your opening posts Phil. This term nondual is kinda interesting as well as kinda confusing
for me. Many different ways this expression is used.

Nondual would suggest to me not 2 but 1. Yet usually
what i'm hearing is nondual is really not 1 (unity) but 2 (dualistic). Someone is aware of experiencing something.

In Taoism there is a
saying goes something like if one has experienced the Tao, they can not speak of it. My understanding of this is that it can
never be talked about because it is beyond all human
ways of knowing, understanding,experiencing. This i understand
as unity/nondual. Not a place one lives from but may be given the
grace to experience at times.

A RC contemplative spiritual director mentioned to me that in silent prayer sometimes she would return to awareness of God gasping
for breathe. She was afraid she might not come back & die . I think i mentioned this once before but don't believe it was in the area of nonduality.

After learning a few things in the East this is an experience of what i understand as nondual. To me this Christian was so absorbed in God that she went to a state of love & absorption in God that she could not speak about. One may seem dead to others during this time. Anything other than this i have known as dualistic.

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
Hi,

Recently, I've watched this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-Q9ql0Pqo0

...But I really think that he shouldn't speak like that. First of all, it is, of course, Bernadette Roberts' "theology": first you want to be united to God, but then you "realize" that there is no God and no you, just oneness, which is the peak of Christian journey. ...What he says can't be shared with the rest of the Church and is not a part of Catholic or Christian tradition, mystical or not. ...


I guess I'm a bit sad when I think about it. Metaphysical experience of God is beautiful and should have its rightful place in the Church's experience, but not in the place of a personal relationship with God.

I have felt the same way, Mt. As I see it, maybe too crudely, is that what Fr. Keating is implying is that there is no need for Christ, other than as an orienting tool or stepping stone to Eastern enlightenment/ non-duality.

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:
... Not a place one lives from but may be given the grace to experience at times....

To me this Christian was so absorbed in God that she went to a state of love & absorption in God that she could not speak about. One may seem dead to others during this time. Anything other than this i have known as dualistic.

If it's "not a place one lives from," than what good is it to oneself or the world? And so, how would that be a "grace"?

As to the latter reflection, I just read in St. T of A that she had experiences, for some periods of time, of wanting to die to be relieved of life on Earth so as to be more united with God. And St. Paul too spoke of the intense desire to be with God such that death is preferred to life lived in his current body on Earth. However, neither of these mystics are suggesting or seem to be even remotely implying that death would cause their individual personhood to disappear. Furthermore, if you believe St. Paul, those who are in Christ are destined to obtain Glorified Bodies. So whether in this body or another, we're stuck with being a kind of 'somebody.'

My own non-dual experience has added some valuable qualities to my life but it is not the end of the conversation. I am finding the things in my Christian faith that can balance that experience and make me a compassionate human being. This is my personal reflection from this week.

A letter to my best friend.

Jesus I need to be secure in you. It’s not enough to find peace in a concept… God is love… and that is an awesome concept. It’s not enough to be secure in a powerful feeling… I am connected… I am one with all… I am a part of the universal mind. I need a concept and a power with a name and a face, one who understands me completely.

I need this because I am human. I need this because every moment of transcendent bliss and empowerment eventually gives way to a moment of brokenness where I need the divine other more than the divine unity. Sometimes I just need a friend, and Jesus you have always been the best friend I have ever had. My Christian triumphalism may have been filled with rotting ego and dead mans bones, but my Christian brokenness has been filled with many moments of tender acceptance from a friend who always embraced me without the least judgment.

Jesus you taught me a path of union with the divine through intercession. Not a unity with power and perfection, but a unity with brokenness and humanity. Not a meditation into blissful light but a meditation into the prison cells of those bound by injustice and into the institutions filled with those broken in body and mind, deemed useless by society. I had forgotten that this too is an experience of divine union.

Jesus I am proud to be your friend. Your way is so misunderstood even by those of us who attempt to follow. It has been terrifying to journey so far from what I thought were the safe shores. I am so happy to encounter you here and see once again how amazing you are. Your humility and kindness are medicine to my heart.

I can appreciate the many ways people connect to the divine and find meaning and community. I consider all who seek peace and tolerance in our weary world my brothers in arms. Everyone must choose a path or no path. I am finding in my convoluted journey that I still want to follow Jesus.

Now ...... I can LIKE THAT!

Well said.

I'd like to share a little about where I'm coming from in relation to this holism/oneness, if that's ok. But first, let me say something I thought of yesterday concerning the idea of individuality and personhood.

It crossed my mind that the body sustains the experience of duality while we're here on earth, and that lack of awareness of the body goes further by sustaining an illusion of separateness. Bringing awareness to the body makes it easier to appreciate the subtle connections in our selves between thought, emotion and the body, and between each other, increasing awareness of group energy, interpersonal energy, planetary energy, the fluidity and interpenetration of mind, while never quite letting go of that distinct personal experience. Like Shasha, I was led to think of the glorious body and how it might be even more fluid, pourous, absorbing greater blocks of energy, allowing us to transcend barriers of time and substance, connecting us to collective mind in deeper and more profound ways, again while never losing that distinct spark of the experiencer. There may even be an experience of unity with the whole, an experience of self as everything (but still the experiencer) which the body of glory can accomodate with remarkable ease, and which may proceed or be part of the experience of divine union. Ok enough of these ramblings...

My main point here is to say a little about how I came to this experience of holism. Occasionally, and for a number of years now, I sink into this ultra dark state of hell. It relates to a connection with a spiritual healer I was involved with years ago and basically exemplifies the darker, negative aspects of interconnectedness where the holistic compostition of nature is abused and exploited, a little like black magic. It involves a huge descent in a Godless state without life, hope, consolation. There is a sense of real evil, of a universe without God, a huge pit of darkness and nothing. It goes beyond clinical depression experientially in a number of ways I won't go into, and is really a total loss of any spiritual wellbeing. At first I'm able to go to the cross, and this is essential, because the experience is in truth an experience of the cross. I'm sharing Christ's sufferings. Then any consolation obtained from the cross disappears and I'm left in a total void. My process of recovery from these bouts however, is usually quick and involves three basic stages:

1. The first is like a regression to childhood, where I seek mother and fatherly comfort. At the end of the last attack I had a real craving to be back in the Gospel Hall of my childhood - that security, that comfort - to know that I'm safe with my parents and family where nothing can touch me.

2. The second stage is a desire to reconnect with God, to strengthen my Christian faith, read scripture, read about the saints, be with close Christian family.

3. The final stage, and here we come to the point, is a deepening of those holistic connections with my environment, an immersion, a dissolution almost, though not quite, of self in the energy around me, sky, trees, birds, insects perceived as one, as a whole, an experience of collective energy coming and going through this one experiencer. Interestingly these rather pleasant states come with a deep sense of gratitude, a need to worship, and a realisation of my poverty which in turn leads me straight to Christ and the cross again.

So what I'm trying to get to is just how much Christ is involved in, and how much I need him in my journey to and experience of this holism, from that initial identification with the cross in the dark night, to my relating to him in my creatureliness as I move deeper into holistic communion with collective energies/unitive energies, and ultimately union with the creative and divine intelligence in whom it all subsists.

I wonder if Father Keating doesn't have an experience of Christ which he can bring into His idea of "there is no other", which statement might, in the end be a way of describing how God is beyond all concept, all word, all idea, rather than a concession to eastern ideas of nothingness and illusion.

It's my believe too that this holistic universe isn't neutral and hence prey to all sorts of abuse like the horrors I experience, but is knit together in love, by love, and responds more energetically, effervescently to love. God is love and his universe, though broken and constantly in flux, responds to love because it recognises the imprint of its maker. Which is why I'm happy to accomodate the dualists, the non dualists, the holists, even those who really just don't know.

Sorry for the longish post. I should sign off now - go make myself a sandwich. Love you all!

Those are deep insights and musings that you share, Stephen. You've shared your journey with us for several years now, and it's heartening to hear of the healing and integration that you have come to experience. Your sharing reminds me of Paul's statement that "nothing can separate us from the love of God poured out in Jesus Christ." (Rm. 8:38-39). I have stood on that one many times. Not even our mistakes or sins (though we must repent of them)!

Jesus' own death and descent to Sheol indicates how deeply he has plumbed the depth of human experience and misery. There is simply nothing that lies outside of his reach. It seems, too, that he takes our wounds and the hells we have fallen into and uses this as a means of opening us to extraordinary depths of encounter with him. Of course, one has to be willing to go out to meet him there, and trust that something good is happening even when it seems that he has forgotten about us. The journey you've shared with us here and in your book gives testimony to this trust and willingness and the great truth of Rm. 8:28, that "for those who love God, all things conspire unto good."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shasha:

If it's "not a place one lives from," than what good is it to oneself or the world? And so, how would that be a "grace"?


Thank you Shasha

Yes, thank you i was aware of something in this but couldn't put
my finger on it. Didn't understood till yesterday. What i took away from Phil's earlier comment about this state is that this is a taste of death.
And this person had not yet become comfortable with that yet.

And i've become aware of deeper issues of a fear of death within
myself over past couple week.

quote:

Meanwhile, let us remind ourselves that another, metaphysical, consciousness is still available to modern human beings. . . Underlying the subjective experience of the individual self there is an immediate experience of Being. This is totally different from an experience of self-consciousness. It is completely nonobjective. . . an immediate experience that goes beyond reflexive awareness.
- Thomas Merton, Zen and the Birds of Appetite

This is another great book on this topic, and the dialogue between Merton and the Zen master, D. T. Suzuki is most informative. But note that Merton is not talking about contemplation, here; what he is describing is precisely the non-reflecting awareness we have pointed to again and again on this board as a "natural" type of nondual consciousness.

What's your thoughts on Merton's intellectual move to the east towards the end of his life, Phil? The Asian Journals give an account of a deepening interest in Tibetan Buddhism. Was he beginning to blur the distinctions between non dual awareness and contemplation? Or was it more about the mechanics or techniques of meditation?

In Zen and the Birds of Appetite he lays out what he considers the distinctions between the kind of consciousness that Zen cultivates and contemplation. I think he was interested in the Eastern mystical traditions because he himself enjoyed Zen and found it complementary to his Christian mystical experiences, and because he admittedly felt more kinship with monks from other religious traditions than he did with non-monastic Christians.

His death is a most curious matter, however. I wonder if he was taken from us before he had ventured too far into making statements that the Church was not ready to hear?

Dom Aelred Graham's book, Zen Catholicism, is still (to me) the best book on relating Zen experience to Christianity. William Johnston's Christian Zen is also very good, as is Jim Arraj's God, Zen and the Intuition of Being.

quote:

Originally posted by ekearney:
...
A letter to my best friend.

...

That is really beautiful. Thank you for sharing it with me.

quote:

Originally posted by samson:
...
My main point here is to say a little about how I came to this experience of holism. Occasionally, and for a number of years now, I sink into this ultra dark state of hell. It relates to a connection with a spiritual healer I was involved with years ago and basically exemplifies the darker, negative aspects of interconnectedness where the holistic compostition of nature is abused and exploited, a little like black magic.
...

Stephen,

Or a lot like black magic?

First, let me say, I am so sorry to hear about your suffering. I know its better, and I echo Phil's hopeful message that Christ is sovereign throughout all of this, but it still sounds miserable, and it makes me sad for you. Second, I think we've talked about how some of this sounds like some kind of demonic oppression. It reminds me of a woman I met at Christian Healing Ministries who had similarly been involved with a 'spiritual healer.' She described feeling like she was in hell owing to contact with him through a series of energy 'treatments.' She said she got sicker and sicker and felt out of control and obsessed with him. In fact, she said she eventually learned that he had 'corded' her, something about establishing a supernatural cord between them through which he somehow was able to manipulate her energies. YUK! In fact, I suggested to her what I suggested to you years ago: that she write her testimony for others as a warning.

But who am I to talk? I had a similar experience with a guru years ago, in which I felt supernaturally chained to his energy. Maybe this is the tantra / occult stuff that erupts in a few places in your book. [I know you don't want to talk about it]. There's a lot of vampires out there, and they sing a nice tune about 'white healing light' and so forth. When I was energetically linked to this guru, I even experienced a bizarre sense that I was living on two planes of reality, simultaneously in my world and in his. So, yes, we are porous, inter-connected beings, and apparently stupidly so. Being spiritually inter-connected can be a huge liability. I mean, think of all the spiritual STDs out there, some of which may be incurable! So, yes, as you say: this holism is broken. Nothing necessarily holy about our holism even though there are spiritual delights and fancies, ripe for the picking. But I'd call all of these 'wilderness ecstasies,' which divert and stall and may destroy one's movement toward God.

Honestly, I have always been energy sensitive, which has some real down sides to it, even if I hadn't ventured into the occult. The super-good news is that since I began receiving the Lord through the Eucharist several times per week for about two years now, I feel heavily protected. I am much resistant to energy invasions. I have stronger spiritual boundaries, and I have been far less susceptible to demonic attacks. I just feel more solid, less confused, and more self-controlled than ever. I do attribute this to my eating the flesh of Jesus and drinking His Blood in Holy Communion. And I look forward to the day when, according to St. Catherine of Siena, even the demons fear the soul of one who is intimately united with Christ.

Peace,
your big sister,

Shash

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
...
His death is a most curious matter, however. I wonder if he was taken from us before he had ventured too far into making statements that the Church was not ready to hear?
...

What do you mean by "not ready to hear?"

Thanks for your care and concern, Shasha, I appreciate it, although I do think you miss the point of my story a little.

I actually think the holism is holy and is part of my healing. The ties of the occultist grow weaker as my appreciation and experience of interconnectedness develop, which is why I'm drawn to the cosmic Christ throughout this beautifully holistic universe. The black magic is an abuse of what actually is, but what actually is responds with love and healing in a slow process of deliverance, diminishing the magic, the energies of which are not compatible with a holism whose loving source is God supreme. It's like the relationship between parent and child. One individual parent can abuse a child but this doesn't make the whole parent/child relationship bad in general. On the contrary, the natural beauty of the relationship is about loving connection. So there is great beauty and love in interconnectedness, which is not spoiled by one bad (interconnected) apple. In fact, I see it as a great work of God that this can be appreciated and enjoyed despite the dark element. It's important to see the darkness as Sheol, as the cross, to accept it and allow God to use it as a way of dealing with the old man, so that the new man can rise up with Christ and be part of the holistic universe He is in the process of redeeming.

I probably will write about it at some point, indeed I have done in poetry, but I get the sense the story isn't finished yet, so I'll wait till then.

Ok we've probably reached a bit of an impasse with this, Shasha, so I'll not say much more.

quote:

Originally posted by samson:
... although I do think you miss the point of my story a little.
...

That's what my little brothers say too: "Shash, you just don't get it!!"

I did hear your point here Stephen, but I'm focussing, perhaps too crudely, on more of the fallen while you are seeing God's love that underlies and upholds creation.

It's my believe too that this holistic universe isn't neutral and hence prey to all sorts of abuse like the horrors I experience, but is knit together in love, by love, and responds more energetically, effervescently to love. God is love and his universe, though broken and constantly in flux, responds to love because it recognises the imprint of its maker.

I guess too that what we call beautiful and define as love is relative .

And I'm wondering if I fail to see the love and beauty in which I'm immersed for the beauty of where I'm going. ?

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
...
His death is a most curious matter, however. I wonder if he was taken from us before he had ventured too far into making statements that the Church was not ready to hear?
...

What do you mean by "not ready to hear?"

Merton was considered something of a "spiritual giant" whose writings had inspired others to be open to the Christian contemplative tradition and also social justice issues. The late 60s were yet a very early period in interreligious dialogue, and many were already complaining that he was a tad too enthusiastic about Zen and Buddhism, in particular. I never read anything from him that blurs the difference between these traditions and Christian spirituality, but surely many would have taken his involvements as a signal that it made little difference if one were a Buddhist or a Christian -- that all roads lead to Home.

quote:

I actually think the holism is holy and is part of my healing. The ties of the occultist grow weaker. . .

I understand, Stephen, and have noted much the same myself (though I do not have the occultist scars that you've suffered from). It does seem that there is a kind of morality and guidance implicit in unitive experiences, as one comes to sense when one is "pulling away" or "going off on one's own." Usually, this is about some kind of selfish or willful endeavor, only one has a direct, experiential sense of this taking place, which is a little different from the usual kinds of convictions of conscience or Superego.

I'm pasting this in from today's Daily Spiritual Seed because it's another concise point of discernment re: non-dual consciousness and the mystical graces that God gives in true contemplation.

Meanwhile, let us remind ourselves that another, metaphysical, consciousness is still available to modern human beings. . . Underlying the subjective experience of the individual self there is an immediate experience of Being. This is totally different from an experience of self-consciousness. It is completely nonobjective. . . an immediate experience that goes beyond reflexive awareness.
- Thomas Merton, Zen and the Birds of Appetite

(Note that Merton is not equating this with contemplation, but, rather affirming a level of awareness and freedom that is part of our human nature.)