quote:

Originally posted by Fred Walter:
But its right,I used sociologic terms and it was wrong in the forum.

Fred W---

That wasn't "wrong in the forum". Over the years I've often used my experience with animal behavior science--which is simply one tool to help me communicate with another species---to look at what God may be doing with us; looking at God's ways both in comparison and contrast to what I do in working with horses. And that's been an enlightening exercise for me...though I've come to see Him as doing something much, much bigger and more mysterious than using positive re-inforcement.

Also, I use conditioning to keep my associations positive regarding my favorite prayer spot, on a stone wall under a beech tree---I've sort of "trained" myself to preserve that spot as inviting and stress-free.

Ariel and friends

The five sentences that I had written in this forum ,these had been my abstract for one international conference about religion in New Zealand in 2007 and it had been accepted for oral presentation but I could not participate in the conference because of my travel to Paris for education in doctorate. It means that these five sentences (my hypotheses in that paper) have been understandable for individuals in the conference!

Any way,I propose this question to think:


Question: Is religion useful if it can not to change perceptibly "our life"?

My answer: 1- It isn't useful if it can not to change sensibly "our everyday life".

2- Fundamental phenomenon in religion is "type of relationship between human and God" and this factor is determinative "for changing" and "for degree of changing of "our life.

3- All of teachs about religion can not be useful for the changing, if the fundamental factor not be sensible (including of "the immediate rewards ")

Hi Fred W.

I had also felt like you were looking for people
to give certain answers to your questions. I have been considering your statement of putting religious experiences into sociological ideas.

I'm not
very familiar with sociological beliefs. But it sounds to me like they propose that people only do things because of the rewards they receive or expect to recieve. I've been considering this.

I don't know that I can express it this way. There was an internal longing, for what, I didn't know for many years. Something had been lost & I had been searching for it.

Later I felt that it was YHWH/Jesus that was
drawing me near with Love. I guess I could call this a reward. Never considered this before. It is beyond the depth of any human love I had ever experienced but it was somehow familar.

I did not have a meaningful childhood religious background. But did find myself turning to the writings of St. John of The Cross.

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Walter:
No,I did not really want people to give the answers i hoped for. I just proposed we situate out of theological discussions for having more freedom in thinking about religious ideas .But its right,I used sociologic terms (cut)

Mary Sue, what a beautiful post.

Fred W---I would be interested in continuing this discussion--though bit by bit, as this is a busy time for me. I don't have any points to argue, just some questions and my own experience with God; and I'd like to hear more from you. And also, since with my background I find it helpful to look at things in terms similar to sociological ones as often as in theological ones, I'd be interested in hearing from others here.

Mary and Ariel

Modernity has been very helpful to make life easier than before, but "it has created "conditional relations" indiscoverable between us and the objects around us that it had been resulted to this reality that we can not receive God behaviors!

For testing of this idea (Idea: It has created "conditional relations" indiscoverable between us and the objects around us), it will be enough "to stopping all of our actions towards this object and that object for a while". We will find that we are in anger and depression. Even "thinking too much", it create conditional relationship between us and our thinking".

I believe that, Direct actions of God are understandable if we have not been surrounded by our relationships with this objects and that object. Voice of God is lower than other sounds. To hear Voice of God, other sounds should be low for a while.

Mary, I think that only "meaningful intense rewards" are undoubtedly from God and other experiences maybe are doubtful because they may only be psychological changes caused by this factor or that factor that are analyzed and diagnosed by the psychiatrists demand.

Mary, please write more your comments and your memories.

Ariel, Please write here your experiences with God.

I have created a new topic in this forum (Why religion?) and now my work in this place is finish. I invite you for sharing there.

HI Fred,

When my 'primal gates' opened up many years ago, I could find no one to accompany me who could 'be a container' other than a very fine woman who I went to for cranio sacral therapy. She was ( is ) a Shaman, and is a very fine person. I did some shamanic work with her over a period of a year, and it was fine, but I needed more and also something that would include my experience of christian mysticism.

Anyone can use a scenar and it should be separate from religious or spiritual beliefs. It's simply a device, just like acupuncture except more powerful.

Regarding Alberto Villoldo. I did a workshop with him about ten years ago. I didn't like his energy, and from my perspective, I think he is more interested in making a dollar than in making people well. Others might differ, but I trust my intuition, it hasn't let me down yet.

Blessings

Thanks so much Clare.

I planned to read some Volloldo today but really...my intuition said no... only for the covers of his books in Dutch that are so...

Many synchronistic things are happening in my life at this moment... dreams, images, words I hear, even colors...(through this quantec, scenar, gemmotherapy...) and I am seeing this shaman on December 6.

I don't know anymore why many Christians are so reluctant towards shamanism and sorts...
I read some Bourgeault, Smoley and about energy medicine (awesome!) and I like the universal wisdom tradition without wishing to forget about Jesus Christ of course.
Do you know http://www.psychicscience.org/daniels.aspx =) great book is http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-S...niels/dp/1845400224?
And this one: http://www.amazon.com/Awakenin...getics/dp/1591430844

I received this yesterday:

Fred,

Thanks for your note about shamanism. Yes, as a Christian, I have no problem accepting the fact that other peoples throughout the world have and practice different ways to heal. I grew up in a medical family of doctors in the midwest. I had my own set of medical problems and challenges growning up and as an adult, and have found wonderful people who are indigenous shamans who can heal others that don't even live in their communities or have their beliefs. Shamans use various methods to access info about a person ( soul loss, etc) and then use methods to help the person heal. Many shamans use traditional means to heal that honor the earth and nature. They don't expect payment and are ofter supported by their community.
Our conference invites shamans and healers each year to present at Conference and share their wisdom. For more info, check out our website: Shamanismconference.org
Linda Braga - Corresponding Sec.

It's not exactly Christian, but I've heard it said that the blocks to the flow of subtle energies, even more subtle than kundalini, is psychological material that is stored in particular centers of the body. So an embodied psychological work has the potential of unblocking the flow of energy in a safe and organic manner.

I think that wrestling with the passions can bring this about.