Hi Clare,

Good to hear from you again!
I don't know whether this scenar is also efficient re. emotional issues, but i am feeling changes in my life.
At the presentation of this scenar I have learned to know a fine, beautiful, intelligent en religious woman who is older than me but very charming. She is very strong but has chronic pain since 40 years! Things are going fast but there is this man who is kind of a tyran and a house has to be sold...
I pray to God for help.
At the same time it gives such a good feeling after being alone since 1994!

Fred

Hi again Fred---

My camera's CF memory card isn't compatible with my computer, so I don't use it on the internet. I was just photographing autumn leaves and some magnificent old beech and American tuliptrees I came across while hiking.

Hi all friends.I am new here.I'm student of doctorate in sociology of religion and i would like to be among you in the forum.I have some idea sociologic in relation between religion and society but little by little.Please be friends with me.

Hi FW---I'll be interested in hearing your ideas.

Greetings, Fred, and welcome to the forum.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Hi all.I do not rush and i prefer to be reader but it seems that you are waiting for me.Ok,i start with these sentences :

<< Formularizing of behavior by religious experiences >>

1- Religious experience as a psychic and emotional reward stimulate individual to repeat it for regaining such rewards.

2- Religious experience ability to produce such rewards frequently, will conditioning the man to re operate previous actions related to the experience.


3- The actions as religious practices (in view of the man) are primary regulations of religious behaviors.

4- In the long time, the religious experiences increasingly will regularize religious behavior of the man. In other words the rewards will be related to more regularize religious behaviors.

5- religious behavioral regulations (religious experience approach) are parts of the social interaction between man and God.


Please,talk with me about these sentences.Are you agree with me?

Fred, I'm on the road for a few days and will get back to you later. Perhaps some of the others will respond.

Some of the sentences are awkwardly worded for a doctoral student project. I get a sense that English is not your first language, is that correct? We might have to ask for clarifications at times just to be sure we understand you. Hang in there with it.

Peace, Phil

Tanks Phil.It's right.English is not my first language and also my sentences are in sociologic terms and i have some problem for writing this type of ideas mor facile.Excuse me.

Hi Fred:

Could you please tell me what religious belief system you are following?

It would be helpful if you could give me an example of what you
mean by religious experience & an example of a reward. Is it the same as mystical experience?

Knowing these things will be helpful for me to respond to your questions.

Thanks so much.

"1- Religious experience as a psychic and emotional reward stimulate individual to repeat it for regaining such rewards.

2- Religious experience ability to produce such rewards frequently, will conditioning the man to re operate previous actions related to the experience.


3- The actions as religious practices (in view of the man) are primary regulations of religious behaviors.

4- In the long time, the religious experiences increasingly will regularize religious behavior of the man. In other words the rewards will be related to more regularize religious behaviors.

5- religious behavioral regulations (religious experience approach) are parts of the social interaction between man and God.


Please,talk with me about these sentences.Are you agree with me?[/QUOTE]

Fred--

I have questions similar to Mary Sue's. My particular question is to ask you to describe what you mean by "religious experience": do you mean a different state of consciousness ("enlightenment", for example, or unity consciousness)?

Or do you mean what Faustina is referring to, I think, as God's grace?

I have some field experience (as a layperson) using animal behavior science--specifically, mostly "operant conditioning"--with horses and dogs, and the wording of your ideas reminded me of operant conditioning principles. Is that what you have in mind?

Hi Mary,Hi Faustina,Hi Ariel

I am glad for your reactions.

For Mary :

1- Personally, I believe on mysticism. That's right, religious experience is mystical experience .But in sciences socials, all of personal experiences between humans and supernatural phenomena are "religious experiences."

2- Reward means very good and very useful things (biologic or social or economic or....) that the human receives immediately in everyday life. About religious experience (mystical experience in your mind), these rewards are very different of other rewards in everyday life. These are things that the human suppose that these are as coming from God or Jesus (directly and suddenly) .for example, all of the experiences of Saint Augustine and Saint Teresa and ……


I see religious experience and rewards similar to William James in his book (The Variety of religious experiences) .I'm very serious in religious practices and I am an example for my ideas in this topic.



For Faustina :

Your answers are theological and they are not sociologic.


In summary:

Your answers are, a little, emotionally with the reasons that are just theological. All of people know what religion is and what are rules of God and what is a religious life. But one person that is religious, he lives like one that is not religious (with many differences).Life style of one prophet or one that is in union with God, are very different than life style of other people. Why?! I believe that it is from being of "religious experience" and "rewards". God elects many people for these types of experiences and he will be in relationship direct with them.



For Ariel:

Thanks. You have understood exactly my idea principal in above. It strats exactly with "operant conditioning principles" but in the next steps, it changes formal and typically.


Please continue but little by little please!

Fred---

Little by little is good. I will think more about what you're saying and add my thoughts little by little.

I will say, though, that I think I partly agree with what I believe you are saying, and partly disagree...but that's why talking things over and sharing experience is good.

My friends

For continuing :

I have read one message in "A Daily Spiritual Seed " today :

MESSAGE OF THE DAY

If God be our God, He will give us peace in trouble. When there is
a storm without, He will make peace within. The world can create
trouble in peace, but God can create peace in trouble.
- Thomas Watson


Please read again the message with my note:

If God be our God, He will give us peace in trouble. << I: all of people (religious or no religious) can situate in peace in their troubles. If peace be with "awards" that they are very different than other rewards and other actions of the people, it will be coming from God. In other word, "if God be our God, He will give us peace (entirely different) in trouble ".

Fred W---I'm still thinking over what I think you're saying in several posts. Here is a question relating to an earlier post: Can you tell me at which step your thinking goes in a different direction from "standard" operant conditioning principles? Your English is fine--I just want to be sure I understand what you mean.

Ariel

In primary step, God is "one source"("one mechanic phenomena" like "a matter") that has relationships with the man and "standard operant conditioning principles" is dominant on this type of relation.

In secondary step, God is not just one source for giving the rewards .it is also "one person similar to the man" that react with him like other people that they are in relationship together (in all of dimensions of one social relation between two person. .for example, two friends that they have "near relation " or two person that they are in love).In other word, "God shows himself to him more clear than before". I believe that, it is the manner of God for showing himself to other. I believe that, in this step also operant conditioning principles is dominant but it constitutes the rewards that they are multidimensional. Remember, this rewards are supernatural and they have very different affects than the rewards in other sources.

In primary step, The man is one person that has one personality constitute many characters and God is one source for giving special regards .But in the next steps, little by little, The man will change (in emotion, in mind, in action, in social relation, in religious practices,…) and God will change (in character and in level of effect on the man).

In mysticism, there are very different terms and words for calling these steps but i believe that they are not important.


Final step is "union with God". Guess, which type of relation and which type of experience is in this step?! I see religion always, in this viewpoint.


It is very mistake that individual see religion and God constitutes many commands and many of rules that just they will increase problems and expenses of the individual without attain to rewards or solutions for receiving rewards immediately. Are you agreeing with me?

Hi Fred W---

I just got home tonight, and I will think about this more and reply later. But yes, I agree with some of this but need to think more.

"God shows himself to him more clear than before"---very true, and a nice description of relationship. I think this can be seen in how God in the Old Testament begins at a level of "blessings and curses"=clear cut rewards and disciplines, (often material rewards), for obedience, because that's what the people understand at that point. But the direction He was always aiming for, then and now, is true relationship---"showing himself to us more clear than before"...a more mysterious, messy, wonderful and painful thing that goes beyond formula.

Dear friends,

I am very very troubled again.
Phil, Clare and Katy, where are you...?

Some explanation.
I was feeling somehow better through psycho-energetic work and recently I have been diagnosed with http://www.energetic-medicine.net/Quantec.htmla and it was extraordinary what came out.
This therapist adviced me to take http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemmotherapy, go for http://www.scenar-revenko.ru/en/ and see a shaman healer who she knows.
I don't know very much about shamanism (I always thought about sorcery or occultism), so my question was whether it is safe to consult a shaman. A Catholic professor/anthropologist of the university of Louvain wrote a good and positive book about it and then I found this appealing series of texts: http://soundandsilence.wordpre...the-shamanic-shadow/
I also had contact with http://www.intuitionmedicine.com/academy/founder.htm =) http://www.intuitionmedicine.com/academy/boh.htm
a wonderful book, but not Christian.
I have made an appointment with this shaman woman on December 6, but today I received these messages:

Fred
I am unfamiliar with these alternative therapies so it’s difficult to make an informed comment. I’d recommend that, as with all alternative therapies, it’s important to explore how entangled they are with alternative spiritualities and whether there’s any possibility of untangling them.
Since you mention Shamanism, know this. Shamanism involves the consultation of spirits, rather than God, a practice normally condemned in the scriptures, so personally I’d tread very carefully there. There’s at least one example of God using a Shaman prophetically, in Balaam, but it’s important to note that God didn’t endorse his Shamanic practice at any point. Thinking wider, even when Moses encountered the magicians of Phaeroh’s court, the question wasn’t over whether their ways worked or not, but whether they were idolatrous. So, even should the therapy have some effectiveness there’s some spiritual issues here.
But how sure are you even of its effectiveness? The Quantec diagnosis itself seems pretty ‘out there’. When I come across something like that I normally ask myself, if it’s so effective why aren’t more using it? I expect you’re fairly desperate for healing but I’d counsel you to be guided by the scriptures, by prayer and by trusted Christian leaders as you look for healing.

Dear Fred,
I am sorry to hear that you have this chronic pain since so many years. Now I understand why you are searching in so many directions. If it is psycho-emotional pain, I strongly believe that Christ can heal it. In fact he can heal any sort of pain, but emotional pain is very closely connected to our spiritual, inner life, so it should go away easier once you trust yourself completely into His hands. I don't know about your situation, but I can remember that 24 years ago I was in a big distress caused by a broken relationship, and I was instantly healed through prayer.
As about alternative medicine, 15 years ago my wife and I were looking for healing in alternative medicine as she was very sick and about to have a kidney removed. But each time, before we tried one of these methods, we prayed that it won't have negative spiritual side-effects, since all these branches of alternative medicine are linked to spirituality and often with occult spirituality. And she never got healed, had her kidney removed, and is still well now, after 15 years.
Therefore my opinion is that energetic medicine is too risky. It may provide healing, but in exchange give spiritual after-effects, mainly the loss of faith and embracing a syncretistic religion that poses as open-minded Christianity. I saw the Quantec device and I don't trust it. The idea that 'biophotons merge into a collective global consciousness' is neither science, nor religion. It's just an impressive formula to convince patients. So that device is either a hoax, or it is really the assisting healer that channels the information about your real disease. Did they give you an accurate diagnosis? The same with that of the traditional doctor?
A herbal treatment such as as Gemmotherapy is something different and may be of effective help, as it uses natural remedies. But from here to shamanism is a huge distance. Shamanism is a form of contacting spirits, which pretend to take your soul, or enter into your body and heal you. I think that what really happens in a Shamanic trance is that they contact demons, and it is these demons that really heal you, not the shaman. It may sound very stupid, but demons are very real and can camouflage themselves in very nice outfits. So I cannot imagine how a Christian (unless he is one of the 'enlightened ones') could recommend shamanistic healing.
I don't know how this applies to you, but what you surely need is a group of Christian friends who could encourage you, and stay with you in prayer, as well as a good priest, that would really care, but not one that would lead you into more esotericism. There may be healing there, but the price is huge. The price is your soul. There is a dark world out here, and it is very dangerous. In exchange for healing they want to take your soul captive and make you one more 'enlightened' follower of esotericism. But the real Christ will be far away from you once you step into this area. I have seen many curious 'Christians' stepping into such things, who never came out.
God bless you,

I replied:
Dear,
I am seriously troubled by your reply....
It seems that I am finding myself in a paradigm shift about a lot of spiritual issues.
Of course I understand what you mean, but why should his whole energy medicine stuff be wrong?
What about Hildegard von Bingen, Marsilio Ficino and many others in our tradition who were open to anything.
What about someone like KG von Dürckheim in our time?
And what about the many-sided interests of a Thomas Merton, Bede Griffiths, David Steindl-Rast... ?
I have certain problems with the Church of today and I find many good things in alternative circuits.
I have suffered more than I can say and why would I not look for healing as good as I can?
Why do we Westerners go to doctors and find that the Western medical model is the only possible? I think that the Church has always incorporated what was good in other traditions. ...
It is becoming all so difficult for me...
I am reading a wonderful book about energy healing:
http://www.intuitionmedicine.com/academy/founder.htm =) http://www.intuitionmedicine.com/academy/boh.htm
Everyone should read it!

Greetings in Christ,
Fred

JESUSCHRIST!!!!

Ariel and friends

I think that it is enough, I'm not interested for continuing the debate alone or just with one person. It will not be useful.

Bye to all

Hi Fred W---I'm sorry that we haven't been of more help. I hope it didn't seem like a "debate" to you.

Dear Fred W.

Thanks for stopping in, and sorry you left disappointed.

One of your responses in an exchange above was the following:

quote:

Your answers are, a little, emotionally with the reasons that are just theological. All of people know what religion is and what are rules of God and what is a religious life. But one person that is religious, he lives like one that is not religious (with many differences).Life style of one prophet or one that is in union with God, are very different than life style of other people. Why?! I believe that it is from being of "religious experience" and "rewards". God elects many people for these types of experiences and he will be in relationship direct with them.

When I read this, my thought was that you were really wanting people to give the answers you hoped for. Besides, your questions and statements are very awkwardly stated in English, so it's difficult to know what you're really asking about.
- E.g., 3- The actions as religious practices (in view of the man) are primary regulations of religious behaviors.
I'm not sure what that really means.

It seems your point is that religious experiences are transformative and rewarding, and, as such, they serve to reinforce and encourage the kinds of behaviors that a religion emphasizes. That works for me.

Dear Fred (no W.),

Sorry to hear that you're having the energy/pain struggles along the lines you've shared about in the past. It seemed you were doing better for awhile.

quote:

I don't know very much about shamanism (I always thought about sorcery or occultism), so my question was whether it is safe to consult a shaman.

The guiding question for discernment for a Christian is "how does this influence your relationship with Christ?" Does it help? Hinder? Neutral? We've had this discussion before . . . several times.

Are there mystical systems besides what we find in Christianity that offer deep, transformative experiences? Of course there are. It doesn't follow that Christians ought to investigate them and get involved in them. You mentioned Hildegard and others, stating they "were open to anything." I don't think so . . . not in the sense you seem to be implying. Hard to imagine Hildegard going to a shaman to see what that was like. And Merton and the others you mention were also thoroughly grounded in the Christian tradition, and investigated mystical pathways in other world religions. Shamanism is a whole other ballgame.

quote:

. . . what you surely need is a group of Christian friends who could encourage you, and stay with you in prayer, as well as a good priest, that would really care, but not one that would lead you into more esotericism.

I think your correspondee gave you very good counsel.

Dear Phil,

Thanks for sharing. I understand what you mean and indeed we spoke about all this before.
I just notice that this shaman stuff is part of the healing center where scenar is being used, which gradually helps me to cope with pain. God's ways are not our ways. I agree about Merton, Hildegard. But you knowbeter than me that Catholicism throughout history incorporated a whole strand of esotericism.
I sometimes think that the Church speaks dubble-tongued. Interreligious dialogue and other spirtitual practices are being stimulated and at the same time people like de Mello get 'notifications' and so on.
There are Christians practicing yoga and reiki and... Who can say where the boarder line is of what is allowed and what not? I am amazed about the reasearch that is being done in the field of energy medicine. What is wrong with making use of it, as long as we are faithful to Christ?
So I'll pray and see what to do following my own consciousness.
Thanks again
PAX,
Fred

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...m/francescadegrandA/ ???

Fred

Ok friends. Some times, I will write things here and I will not be in expecting for discussion.

But for answering to phil:

No,I did not really want people to give the answers i hoped for. I just proposed we situate out of theological discussions for having more freedom in thinking about religious ideas .But its right,I used sociologic terms and it was wrong in the forum.

I am not disappointed and we began well and i know that friends had found my principle idea.

Thanks to Ariel and to faustina and mary.

quote:

Originally posted by Fred:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...m/francescadegrandA/ ???

Fred

I think the author was into neopaganism before he became a Christian. I actually bought his later title, The Big Book of Christian Mysticism: The Essential Guide to Contemplative Spirituality, but it was so underwhelming it wasn't even worth a mention on my blog.