Fred,

I don't live in the U.S., and I found a very good spiritual director and a very good priest for regular confession. I really don't think that we in Poland are more spiritually open-minded than people in Belgium. I don't think you have to have a spiritual director who knows all about Jung, Keating, New Age, yoga etc. Just someone who will be willing to listen.

You've probably heard that before, but: perhaps, the process of inner healing for you might involve maintaining one stable relationship, be it therapeutic or spiritual, for 2-3 years for a start? No matter what you'll feel and think about this person during this time. Does it sound reasonable to you?

I have also another thought - there can be an intellectual fast - abstinence from all spiritual books, articles, youtube videos etc. Jesus considered fasting in general to be very powerful. What do you think about that? For a month or several months abstinence from reading? I did this always during my Zen retreats - for a month I didn't give my intellect anything to process, no reading at all. Might be a good experience.

Mt: Hi--Did you read anything at all during the "intellectual fast" periods? Would you read the Bible, or fiction works and poetry?...things that are more evocative of devotion rather than new or challenging and in need of processing or critical reflection?

My best wishes to you and your wife.

I've been reading quite alot for the past two months here and elsewhere. It's been very, very good for me. But now I notice my inner dialogue is competing with my inner rich silence and inner appreciation of plain old life and creation. I wonder if I've over-loaded myself with too much new, half lived-out information.

Dear Fred: I forgot to say I have been praying for you. I'm an artist, too. And after considering what Mt said, and what I think Phil, w.c., and others have said before, I'm thinking I will dive back into being more of a keenly, appreciatively sensing artist/ spiritual animal for this gorgeous autumn season.

Fred,a mentor/friend gave me copies of the profiles for the ISFP personality type (from MBTI) many years ago, and as it fit me well, it really helped me not be ashamed that I'm both a spiritual being and wonderfully sensing physical one, too. Before, I was half embarrassed at my appreciation of creaturely, sensual pleasures...it didn't seem very spiritual that I'm deeply drawn into things such as a soft fabric, when spiritual people were "supposed" to be able to be ascetics.

Are you at all familiar with the MBTI profiles? According to them, most artists are ISFP's...it comes with the territory. The ISFP profiles from two books, Please Understand Me and Type Talk are available on the internet. If they fit you, it may help free you up to think less and enjoy what you already have more, instead of feeling you need to be an intellectual to use your gifts. I'm very intelligent but I feel no need to be an intellectual, and that's a relief for me. That's me, though, and maybe not you.

My prayers for you will continue, Fred, whatever you decide is good for you.

Thanks to you all, dEar friends... You are ALL compassionate persons, it is good to hear you.

Yes, Phil, good discernment advices. I think I am in F.

Yes, Mt. an intellectual fasting is what I try to do now. It has been far enough. I think the Lord is speaking most clearly to me about that.
But it will not be easy...

Yes,Ariël,I understand exactly what you say.
I have been struggling with this issue of ascetism versus sensuality (agapè verus eros?).
I am member of a lay community of 'hermits' (hm), but I am more a Chesterton type of person...
I don't know this MPTII/ISFP typologies/profiles. More about it here?

Yes, JB who sent me privately this message (and my reply):

That discernment process Phil posted (on the next page) seems very right-headed? And you seem to have found a virtual community of "compassionate witnesses" which can help augment your other community participations? With all you've done on so many fronts for so many years, even as you seek earnestly for healing and practice a longsuffering practice of waiting, perhaps the greatest consolation indeed may come through such as http://www.ccel.org/ccel/decaussade/abandonment.html or
http://www.tanbooks.com/index....page/product_id/218/

I say this because you seem to have a devotional inclination to such classical literature and it may resonate moreso with your temperament type?

Enough peace for this moment, is my prayer for you
And the next may take care of itself ... for there is only this moment
pax, Fred
jb

Dear John,

You are a very compassionate person. Thanks for that! I pondered a lot over Phil's post. In the week-end I was with my parents and my father was so busy and critical about so many things and then I feel this father wound and not being able to react spontaneously...
Yesterday evening I was in such a terrible pain and felt so exhausted and struggling again with the idea of yet another therapy (traumatology?), but you confirm me now that at this moment I have (to try) to relax as much as possible and give everything in His' Hands.
It is not easy to see the sacrament of the present moment and find the Will of the Father in it, when in such pains.
Something which I am quite restless about is my bad memory. I don't remember anything of my youth, which is a frightening thing. Second, I feel that the world around increassingly seems to loose it's attraction. Do you recognize this yourself as part of the purification process as John of the Cross describes it?

Greetings in Christ,
Fred

Hi again, Fred--I hate to add another thing to your reading , but since several things you've mentioned about yourself made me think of the ISFP in the MBTI types/tendencies, and since they've helped me feel more understood, here's more information. It's all light, quick reading.

You can find threads here on the MBTI types, using the "FIND" box on the upper left of the SP General Discussion Forums page. At a minimum, JB's "Shalom Place Classifieds" is worth reading for a laugh! In the other thread from some years ago, jk1962 said some very good things about learning to enjoy life despite all the suffering around us and sometimes in us.

To find the ISFP profile from Please Understand Me, you can google "ISFP breach with language" and that should bring up sites showing the section of the actual book. For Type Talk, googling "ISFP Sees Much But Shares Little" will work.

For myself, the Please Understand Me portrait was the biggest help, as I've tended to get immersed in artwork since I was a kid, and, well, you may know, that can make your brain kind of quirky. (I have a friend who affectionately calls me "Q" for quirky, but people tell me it's an endearing kind of weirdness. I trust them on the "endearing" part, since I don't see the "weirdness" part--I think everything I do is perfectly logical. )

Anyway, I want to say something else later. I'll be back.

Hi again--Fred, Here's a part of Please Understand Me:

"This artisan concretization somehow keeps the ISFP more closely in touch with the very real. While the ISTP is attuned to the tool, so to speak, the ISFP is attuned to color, line, texture, shading--touch, motion, seeing, and hearing in harmony...This insistence on the senses being so closely attuned to reality can, in some ISFPs, occasion a breach with language, and language becomes a barrier to smooth interpersonal relations."

What interests me here is that "breach with language" thing. I used to be easily embarrassed when I was younger that sometimes when I was doing artwork, riding a horse, or doing almost anything I really enjoyed, my ability to speak went off-line. Then I read a poem by D.H. Lawrence, "The White Horse":

"The youth walks up to the white horse to put its halter on
and the horse looks at him in silence
They are so silent they are in another world."

I thought, probably for the first time, "Oh, he gets it." Then, as I said, a friend later gave me the ISFP profile and again I felt less alone--somebody understands this, and if I ever hear, "What's the matter? Cat got your tongue???" again, I'm not going to take it personally.

Lastly, I came realize this is a present from God. There's thread here about "Come To Your Senses", a book I haven't read, but which I'm guessing may be about this sort of "breach with language" that floods out any inner dialogue with a rich, keen silence.

Yes, I do have a point to this post that I'm wanting to make.

Unbidden, it seems, the memory of an important (to me) friend who was killed in a car accident some years ago, keeps coming up and I was crying alot for several weeks. I was hurt and scared about losing other people. My prayers were flipping between gut-wrenching tears and arguments. Much of it is real pain; some of it was turning into melodrama, though. And it seemed I couldn't move past it at all.

Last week, though, I was sleeping outside--I live in the country--and when I started to cry, I just decided to be quiet instead and listen to the night sounds. I let myself be drawn to simply hearing what was around me. And then I decided to listen to what my heart really felt about my friend's death, rather than letting my thoughts tell me what to feel.

I was amazed, when I was really quiet and paying attention to my heart, giving it space to speak, that I felt a very real, very strong, unfabricated "Thank You" to God that my friend is completely safe with Him. It still hurts, and it kind of sucks for me, and I'm still not happy about this loss. But I never would have guessed that my heart really has a deeper faith, and more real peace, than my mind.

So my point is, that for me and presumably some other people, tuning into quietness by using my senses as a bridge can be a gift from God. The senses are just a bridge, though, I think, not the destination in themselves; where I go after I cross is up to me.

Fred, I had to go outside to my horses, but I wanted to add this, from Type Talk's ISFP profile:

"As Perceivers, ISFP children march to a somewhat different drummer...They want very much to please but often go about it in such a way that the person to be pleased--parent, teacher, sibling, and so on--becomes impatient, even exasperated. The message the sensitive ISFP gets from these individuals is: 'You never seem to do anything right!' "

What you said about the time you spent with your father recently made me wonder if some of that occured between him and you when you were growing up.

Dear friends,

Today the pain is really unbearable!
I don't know what to do anymore...
There will be a neurological examination November 4. Please pray for me.

Greetings,
Fred

Glad to hear you're having that exam, Fred.

Invite God into your suffering and ask the Lord Jesus to show you how to carry this cross.

Prayers, Phil

Thanks, Phil.
To the opinion of Peter K. this exam means nothing and is't necessary. I have put a lot of energy in corresponding with him. His breath therapy is totally different from f.e. rebirthing, pranayama, holotropic therapy...and is not known in the Anglosaxon world.
Hetty Draayer was really a visionary, but I feel that the instructions are too wordy an intensive for me. It only makes me more nervous yet, as you already said Phil. But there are few things or none at all that seem to help these days! I ordered this book a long time ago
an it has now arrived http://www.namastepublishing.com/brown.asp

Greetings,
Fred

Jesus, now I notice at his website that connected breathing is part of the process!!!

Fred

Namaste Publishing is the company Eckhart's publisher, Connie Kellough, set up to put out his books.

The book you refer to uses all sorts of exotic terminology, but what it all comes down to in the end doesn't sound any different from the ordinary contemplative practice of silent prayer, "waiting upon the Lord."

And yes, I would avoid the connected breathing he recommends, as I understand it can be dangerous.

Dear friends,
After some sessions of connected breathing on Friday and Saturday, yesterday I had lots of pain. I agree with Phil and Derek? It is certainly not for me.
I had a long talk with some friends yesterday and I expressed the intention to keep things as simple as possible from now on.
As you say, Derek, there isn't 'anything new under the sun'!
Right now, I am praying a novena http://www.medjugorje-online.c...abce3df701cdbcbcd42b
http://www.mariedenazareth.com/3036.0.html?&L=1 and I ask for the intercession of our Flemish father Damiaan who will be canonized next week-end in Rome. I more and more feel I only find rest in rosary prayer... As if God tells me to stay away from all worldly wisdom!
Is there someone over there who wishes to pray with me and my friends?

PAX,
Fred

Interesting about the connected breathing. That is what I did with a certified breath therapist who studied under Judith Kravitz, the founder of Transformation Breathing, (connected breathing) and author of "Breathe Deep, Laugh Loudly". I have to say connected breathing has helped me more than almost any other natural therapy.

Fred, was the breath therapist certified under Judith Kravitz? Just curious.

Katy

I came upon something quite interesting!
J.-Y Leloup, an orthodox theologian in his excellent book on desert spirituality

http://www.amazon.com/Being-St...dition/dp/0809141779

http://www.jeanyvesleloup.com/...ype_txt=0&ref_txt=60

says this of one of the 'logismoi' (passions, thoughts), namely ANGER:

"Orgè is usually translated as 'anger' or 'impatience'. In Hebrew it is qesôr'appaim, which literally means shortness of breath. Anger causes us to lose our breath. We have shallow breath. We suffocate as if possessed...
Anger moreover weaks havoc upon the liver and excites the production of bile..."

Very revealing to me, since I (admit) seem to wrestle above all with this impatience, anger, lack of forgiveness...(toward my father, who is quite unpredictable, cursed me and made me afraid of him?). Please pray to Holy Spirit to help me to forgive him!!!

"...But what are the remedies for the unjust anger that alienates? First, PARDON. ... NEXT, LEARNING TO PROLONG THE BREATH (!)... This might seem sheer common sense, but is also a spiritual exercise. In the language of the Bible, to express the idea that God is PATIENT one says 'GOD HAS BIG NOSTRILS' - a physical image that expresses God's calm and PATIENCE..."

FRED

what I'm about to say might come as a nuisance to Kundalini enthusiasts out there who are intrigued by the power, health, truth, wisdom and emergence of "the self" that Kundalini might offers. Kundalini is not the work of the Holy Spirit. The two could even be seen as opposite forces, although both seem to share psychic, love, and wisdom elements (maybe more). In fact the approach to each is strikingly different. The Holy Spirit is or at least symbolizes the spirit of god and is received by constant prayer and the surrender to God. In other words it implies receiving from above with humility. Kundalini does not involve God. It requires a lot of curiosity and a burning desire to be special, stronger, free of lies, false images, to be a god. (I don't doubt that most of us have the same desire). In my opinion Kundalini feeds on these insecurities. It feeds on our greed and on our self rejection and hate. Not surprisingly, once Kundalini is awakened it can have devastating and lasting effects on our psyches and bodies unleashing tremendous fear and hate in the process. It has no regard to our values, identity, and our right to not be perfect. Some might argue that this is actually good and that this is what spirituality is for. It rids us from our ego based identities, the source of all our suffering. Sure seems great! On paper at least! No one is denying the shortcomings of our conditioned reality. But it is important to make peace with ourselves, and have courage to live this life with our imperfections or conditioned reality. Only true love gives us the patience and wisdom to change the things we can and embrace the rest, slowly building positive momentum that carries us confidently forward. Think of this relationship with yourselves as the relationship great parents have with their child. They love him and let him be a child for a very long time. This is also how God supposedly treats us.

Now imagine parents who think their child is dumb, nonsensical, and funny looking. They constantly ridicule him, prove him wrong, and demonstrate to him how physically and sexually dominant they are. (Funny eh?) This is how kundalini treats its fans (the more insecure ones of course). It is actually how you treat yourselves.
You forget who you are and instead you get absorbed by the evolved bug free final version of yourselves, giving way to anyone or anything that promises you a nice little shortcut.
For readers with Christian backgrounds, this is confirmed in the bible. The wise serpent promises man to become as wise and powerful as god, and gets its way by feeding on man’s greed and insecurities. In the new testament Christ himself is tested by Satan where he is promised the entire material world…of course Jesus has authority over all earthly powers. There are also other references on the devil being cast dawn to the earth by God. (very similar to kundalini serpent that lies dormant in the lowest chakra and once awakened starts making its way up with all its knowledge, wisdom and power)
Now back to reality! Similar to the child in the first example, we all realize how we ought to be but we let go and allow ourselves to slowly gravitate to that image or ideal. This is due to the accepting love present in our lives. We also (maybe more realistically since love kinda lacks in this world) owe that to our busy and hectic lives which leave us lacking insight and away from this entire mind boggling spiritual realm. For those of us who are closer to our dark side, more aware of our fears and conditioning, or criticizing ourselves negatively into insecurity... I have a song for you: ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE (The Beatles) LOL no seriously that all you need folks!
Now some of you more eager fans who find it very hard to let go might coincidentally have a light bulb go off in your heads.

It is clear to you now that the bible writers and the church maliciously kept this secret away from us for ages! Well, once you get a glimpse of the kundalini energy movement you might realize a little too late what fuels it: fear and hate (I think these two emotions underlie all other negative ones), in other words the opposites of love. You can also call them the evil in us. The price you end up paying is you freedom, ironically. You become a slave of the serpent, who again has no regard for you.
Its not the force that is to blame, "just the hunger and greed supplying the ugly drive"... another great song for you guys: "Londinium by Archive

Whatever you decide is right for your development and advancement in life, be patient and slowly research your way into. It’s all about building momentum. And remember to always look for ways to bring more love (some people call it Christ or the holy spirit, I'm one of them) into your lives by surrounding yourselves with the right people, understanding the "wrong people", and most importantly by loving yourselves, the basic version offered for free.

To clarify, by "kundalini energy movement" I am not referring to an organization or sect (although there are ones, some of which genuinely believe this to be the path to liberation, unaware or in denial of their unending enslavement to earth, becoming like a tree, sort of). I am instead referring to the awakening process and the literal movement of energy... All the best

driver, it would probably do you some good to read a bit on the kundalini forum how we've approached this issue. There are no "kundalini enthusiasts" here, and there has been a strong discouragement given to seeking to activate this process as an end in itself.

I'm a bit cynical about anyone who pops up on a forum with the intent on setting everyone straight without even knowing where we're coming from. You're on a very short leash, here, at this point.

Dear friends,

I wonder who knows:

http://www.scenar-revenko.ru/en/about/revenko.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB6ilr_NXkw

and

http://www.energetic-medicine.net/Quantec.html

This is also an interesting article:

http://theamt.com/addressing_c...by_dr_larry_nims.htm =)

http://articles.mercola.com/si...002/01/09/bsff3.aspx

In any case, it helps me with my chronic pain.

PAX,
Fred

Just saying hi, Fred. I'm still reading Bhajanananda's article you posted on another thread...I'll look at these later.

Hi back, dear Ariel!

Everything allright here in l'Arche Bruges!
How are you doing?
It is 11 p.m. I am going to sleep now.
Later more as Phil asked me.
Look at this scenar therapy!

http://www.scenar-therapy.com/...s/irena_kossovskaia/

Fred

I'm doing quite well, Foreign Friend Fred. Autumn has been beautiful in my area, so I've been doing alot of hiking, taking photographs, and planting trees and more blueberry bushes. ---Alien Amiga Ariel (That's alien as in from another country.)

Dear Ariel,

Can I see the photographs here?
Belgium had a lot of water these last days. It's a disaster in the middle of the country, but not at the coast side where I am living.

Fred

Hi Fred,

Nice to see you here again. I own a Scenar ( known here as a Pain Genie ) and I bought it to keep with the rest of our first aid supplies in our medicine chest here at home.

I first experienced it with my own naturopath when I had an ear infection which was very painful. I was so impressed at the immediate relief from pain, I went to an evening demonstration of the scenar some months later, and subsequently bought one six months ago.

Am still learning about it's properties, and thank you for the links.

Blessings.