A. General reflections. 11 min., 28 sec. Real Audio.

A. Deeper reflections. 11 min., 49 sec. Real Audio.

- - - - -

What are your questions, comments, reflections? What resources do you recommend?

That sounds very gnostic to me, Phil. I have read much about this. About humanity becomming part of the Trinity with Christ becomming the first to do so. Is this what you are hinting at?

There is much I have read about Elijah and Elisha later re-incarnating as John the Baptist and Jesus. Only the roles are reversed. The student becomes the master.

There is much biblical scripture that can really hint at this. But it is very skew. Not to mention heresy.

I'm not sure what you mean by gnostic, Eric. Our place in the Trinity through Christ is sound doctrine, as is the teaching on spiritual transformation -- theosis, deification. This isn't saying that we're really divine beings nor that we possess a secret gnosis; it's a work of grace.

There must be a part of Christianity that I don't understand. Through Christ are we joined to the Trinity also? Thus making us Demi-Gods? I always thought we are more or less children of God and always will be. But I guess children must grow up some day.

For a moment what you were saying I thought had some gnostic thinking to it. Because they state that we can join the Trinity through our own effort. I have never recieved any teaching in fundamental Christianity that ever taught we will become part of the Trinity.

I think you're recognizing the importance of how we theologize about Christ and the difference it makes.

Through the incarnation, Jesus connects the human race to the Word, or Second Person of the Trinity, in a new and much more profoundly intimate manner than existed before. As the incarnation of the Word, Jesus brings humanity into the life of the Trinity itself. We, too, through our union with him through faith, participate in the life of the Trinity, expecially through the gift of the Holy Spirit. This doesn't make us demi-gods, however, only adopted children of God. We are still human beings with individual human souls, only the soul itslef becomes transformed by the Spirit into a likeness of Christ. This transformation process -- of shedding the old humanity and putting on the new, in Christ -- is the spiritual journey.

Nothing gnostic or unorthodox about any of this, Eric. It's all there in Paul's letters and was further explicated by the early Fathers of the Church.

So then if we are adopted children of God then what? What happens after all of creation comes to an end? What does it all mean?

I have read this impressive interpretation of the Trinity by Father Leonard Feeney. I think Father Feeney is enlightened.

If you get a chance to read it let me know what your thoughts are.

http://www.catholicism.org/pages/butlertrinity.htm

Eric, what did you like about the essay? It's quite long and I haven't the time to critique it. Besides, Fr. Feeney was excommunicated by the Church for some of his views.
- http://www.answers.com/topic/leonard-feeney
That doesn't mean he's out in left field on the Trinity, only that I'd probably go for another resource on this topic.

So then if we are adopted children of God then what? What happens after all of creation comes to an end? What does it all mean?

That's a pretty broad question. Care to narrow it down a bit.

Interesting history on Fr. Feeney.

He goes into the analogy of the the Trinity being THINKER, THOUGHT AND THINKING.

That the thought(Christ) of the thinker(Father) is a thought that was begotten. That the Father's thoughts are so pure that he can hold onto the thought for eternity. Unlike us humans who have stray thoughts. God can hold a perfect thought without distraction.

The mutual love between the thinker and the thought manifest the "thinking"(Holy Spirit).

I have never heard it quite explained that way. Some of his thoughts remind me of Deepak Chopra.

That's really not a bad analogy, when you get right down to it. It's consonant with the ancient notion of the Son as the Word.

We are created in God's image, so why not a trinity?

We are "a little lower than the angels" and much lower than God. Nevertheless, we are called children
and freinds. Now that's Generosity and Amazing Grace!

I have heard that angels wish to have a human body that way they can serve God and show their love even more.

I personally think we are a little higher than the angels. How easy they must have it without temptation. They do appear to have free will. But God's existence is a given for them. They need not develop faith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

http://www.virtualchurch.org/jk_angel.htm

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/angels.html

Aquinas said that angels preceded all of the worlds religious traditions. This site includes some angels from Muslim, Hebrew and Pagan religions.

http://www.angelicartistry.com/archangels.htm

(I gather that she has had some trouble with overzealous Christians removing some of the angels
from her website)

Recently reread Billy Graham's book Angels; God's Secret Agents, which is a pretty interesting read.

Phil's labor of love on this Christian Mysteries
segment of shalomplace has been a G-dsend to me, and I have been through it a couple of times.

thank you Phil and eric,

mm <*))))><

Thanks for the links on angels, Michael. Good stuff! And glad to hear that someone has actually made use of this forum. Sometimes I've wondered . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Eric:
[qb] Interesting history on Fr. Feeney.

He goes into the analogy of the the Trinity being THINKER, THOUGHT AND THINKING.

That the thought(Christ) of the thinker(Father) is a thought that was begotten. That the Father's thoughts are so pure that he can hold onto the thought for eternity. Unlike us humans who have stray thoughts. God can hold a perfect thought without distraction.

The mutual love between the thinker and the thought manifest the "thinking"(Holy Spirit).
[/qb]

It occurred to me this morning that we might note other triads.

Lover - Beloved - Loving
See-er - Seen - Seeing
Unmanifest - Manifest - Manifesting
Father - Son - Family Spirit
etc.

When it comes to the Persons of the Trinity, it's essential to hold that they all share equally in the divine attributes. I.e., the Word / Beloved partakes fully in the life of the Father and isn't just a passive expression thereof. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. Catholic theology holds that the Son and Spirit "proceed from the Father," but they do so eternally and not in any sort of linear sense of time.