I have also heard the Trinity explained as water/ice/steam

All the same thing in different form.

For those who might be interested in a deeper reflection on the meaning of the Trinity in Christian spirituality, click here for a discussion we once had on this topic (it's still an open topic, btw).

Since Jesus was the word of God, and was there in the beginning. Did he then beome the Christ after his ascension into heaven?

What I am asking is if he changed at all after his time on Earth. Did he become something other than what he was in beginning?

There appears to be references in the Old Testament as to the comming of the messiah but no divine communication from him.

Christ spoke to Paul on the Damascus road after his ascension. Why is there no other communication from him prior to his birth?

The way I understand it, Eric, is that the human soul of Jesus wasn't given until his conception, at which time he became the Christ, or annointed of God. The communication we have from the Word, or Second Person of the Trinity, prior to His incarnation in Christ, is via creation, which was created through Him. You might also say, however, that all revelation of God prior to the Incarnation includes the Word.

Makes sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. Since the New testament makes a mention of Christ as the creator, then maybe it was him in the Garden of Eden?

I wonder if Jesus was not given his human soul until conception; is that what makes him have a seperate personality of the Father now? Or a better way to re-phrase that is does he still have his human soul now that he returned to heaven?

Eric, where do you find mention of Christ as the creator in the NT? I'm curious what passages you're referencing,here.

The teaching on the Trinity affirms that the Persons are indeed individual while sharing fully in divinity, so that would have been the case with the Logos/Second Person even before His incarnation as Jesus. In response to your last question, yes, the teaching is that Jesus' human soul is in heaven. The Incarnation of the Son entailed God taking human nature into Himself through the human soul of Jesus. Because of the underlying metaphysical unity of the human race, Jesus connects us with the life of the Trinity in a most intimate manner.

See http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/creed2.html#HOW and other sections on Christ in the Catechism. There's some very rich reflection there.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Let me know if I have interpreted these wrong. I was thinking they were in reference to Jesus.

I also was googling and came across this site:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3804.asp

The author seems to think that Christ is the creator also.

This is a new thought for me. I have always believed that the creator aspect of God came from the Father.


"The communication we have from the Word, or Second Person of the Trinity, prior to His incarnation in Christ, is via creation, which was created through Him"


Are you referring to Christ being the word of God when he was speaking creation into existence?

I generally prefer to use the term Christ in reference to Jesus rather than the pre-existing Logos, so maybe that's the confusion. But, yes, the Word or Logos was obviously involved in the creation. Not Jesus Christ, however, except insofar as the Word who became Incarnate in Him was creating prior to Jesus' conception.

I understand what you are saying.

The terminology can get confusing for me at times.

If you look at it from creation to salvation you can see the huge role of Christ. There apparently is a well thought out plan in effect. I do however understand the topic now of the Mystical Body of Christ.

I hope I haven't strayed too far from the topic.

Phil, as you put it correctly in the audio Christ is available for everybody both implicitly and explicitly. However, we have to accept him as our saviour at conscious level. One must willingly enter into the spirit of Christ. Otherwise he can't help us because of the universal law of free will. If we continue to reject him he can't force us to accept him.

Grace:

Not to pre-empt Phil's response, but acceptance of Christ via the Holy Spirit's movement throughout cultures and worlds may occur to some extent when people embrace the Divine in another form. I never stumbled upon this through my experience of Buddhism or Hinduism like I do now as a Christian, but I was also out of place culturally when practicing those faiths/meditations. OTOH, I did meet two or three grace-filled devotees/teachers, and in their presence experienced a peace similar to that bestowed by the Holy Spirit. I'm not completely confident of this, but it makes sense that God would operate in this way.

quote:

Originally posted by Grace:
[qb] Phil, as you put it correctly in the audio Christ is available for everybody both implicitly and explicitly. However, we have to accept him as our saviour at conscious level. One must willingly enter into the spirit of Christ. Otherwise he can't help us because of the universal law of free will. If we continue to reject him he can't force us to accept him. [/qb]

Grace, if you push this point too hard, you end up asserting that only Christians with explicit faith can be saved, and that's not what the Catholic Church teaches (I fall back on the wisdom of my Tradition in such matters). Your point is worded a little more carefully, however, but even so, it doesn't follow that not accepting him on a conscious level translates to rejecting him. Mt. 25: 31-46 makes it quite clear that some will be surprised to discover that they have known Christ all along through the exercise of charity that is a hallmark of at least implicit faith and the action of the Holy Spirit.

There are millions of people who will never have an opportunity for conscious, explicit faith in Christ, and millions more who have had this spoiled for them through some kind of abuse or bad example from a minister or other Christians. Nevertheless, the sacred humanity of the risen Christ touches those lives, and in the inner sanctuary of their conscience, they are met by the Holy Spirit, Who works to guide them in the ways ov love, peace, and justice.

Hence: Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who strive to live a good life, thanks to His grace.
(Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, 16).

That's my resource for the teaching on implicit faith (along with Mt. 25). Fwiw (info for all who read this), the documents of such a Council as Vatican II are considered to be the most authoritative expression of Church teaching, as they come from a gathering of all the bishops and cardinals in union with the pope. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit calls the Church to such gatherings at pivotal moments in history and guides the deliberations to bring forth greater clarity concerning the Christian mysteries. I know, of course, that non-Catholics don't necessarily accept this, but they would be hard-pressed to refute the wisdom expressed in the Council documents.

You guys make my head spin, sometimes. :-)

Katy

Phil, it is not my intention to provoke by my post above. What I want to point out is if somebody touches by Holy Spirit and if the person continue to be guided by Spirit, it is inevitable to experience the energy of Christ. Experiencing the energy of Christ is a very tangible thing.

Having said that I would also like to mention what Jesus said. If we don't give it another interpretation Jesus was so explicit in saying that "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14: 6). Simply by having faith and believing that Jesus is the way and the life we can receive the Holy Spirit and enter into the energy of Christ. So, I have difficulty to see Holy Spirit separated from Christ.

w.c, if people embrace another form of divine it is possible that they reflect a peace similar to that bestowed by the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, we are not sure what they experience is Holy Spirit. The existence of Holy Spirit in ones life indicates the presence of Christ. As I mentioned above the presence of Christ is not hidden, it is tangible. If you have it, you know it. There is no faking it.

Grace:

These people I'm referring to were exhibiting, quite clearly, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. What more can a person ask of someone whose religious faith leads them to this end?