beautiful tuck.. thank you! love christine
Christine, I may be saveable, and if I am, it is because of people like you
you are love
I'm not sure where you get this distinction but IMO it seems arbitrary. Deciding on a consensus vocabulary could take a whole new thread, but would only be useful if this comes up a lot.
Actions that are referred to as "magic" typically make use of natural laws, the processes of which are usually hidden (i.e. occult) from conscious awareness. The initiator, i.e. the "magician," who by his very nature is unusual or atypical, has an awareness of these processes that most people do not. Certain forms of energy manipulation fall into this category, mostly depending on intent and the application of personal will. One's idea of what does and does not constitute "magic" will typically change and evolve, with the line always moving further away as one becomes more aware of processes which until that present time had been "hidden" from his view or knowledge.
So! It wasn’t a SWITCHEROO then? It was that ole Strawman Fallacy! Hmmph.
I had never heard of that fallacy. Honestly. I wasn’t trying consciously to be sneaky. (Comes naturally I guess – being sneaky).
“As iron sharpens iron, so man sharpens his fellow man.” Prov 27:17. You are stropping me to a fine edge, Shasha. Thanks.
Be it snowballs or stropping, the women of SP are ever doing a number on me. Sheesh!
Why do I come here? Am I machochistic?
OK, then, let’s continue:
“you’re over-reacting, methinks. And you’ve slipped into “straw man fallacy” type reactions.”
“But you [Pop-pop] changed it to:
Do you really think that everytime a self-led, not God-led Christian or a neurotic person, or whatever, prays for you that you are susceptible to being damaged by their prayers?
Every time, Pops?”
OK. Allow me to slip out of my strawman fallacy then: I now change the question and the “Every time, Pops?” hyperbole you point out.
Here: Do you really think that *any* time a self-led, not God-led Christian or a neurotic person, or whatever, prays for you that you are susceptible to being damaged by their prayers? ………………………….. LOL …… Hmmph that reads kind of funky too. … (I’m trying to squeeze the hyperbole out but I’m having a hard time). … … And, I can’t say *ever* because I know you believe one can do harm. You’ve said that.
Hmmph. OK. I drop that question, then, and everything to do with it, since as you’ve written: it was “a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version” of your position. Let’s retain your statement.
(You know, I am finding it hard NOT to be a strawman…. my headpiece filled with straw and all. Alas!)
You then wrote:
“And you further jump to this conclusion and hyperbole:
If you grant me that the majority of people's prayers are probably not Spirit-led but are imperfect and 'soulish' to some degree or in the main, then our Popes and Bishops who are the recipients of the prayers of millions are receiving quite a lot of negative energy transmission. Eh?
Gimme a break……. Do you really think that I believe our imperfect prayers will harm the Pope and Bishops?
Do you really believe That?! Because that’s what you’re implying that I'm saying”.
Shasha. I was in no way implying that you believe imperfect prayers will harm Popes and Bishops. There was nothing personal in my statement. I was trying to point out something that to me (a strawman’s strawman) wasn’t hyperbole -- in my mind. So, let me drop that Bishops & Popes question [give you a break] and propose a similar question but in a different regard -- one that has less strawman fallacy (I hope).
My ex told me she prays for Mel Gibson sometimes. She feels sorry for him. She believes ‘his life is unraveling’. She is saddened by that. (His picture was on TV news and that’s what occasioned her telling me). This is true. Not a fabrication of mine.
OK. Ready? Do you believe that my ex’s prayers for Mel (perhaps soulish?) could harm him? Is this within your concept of possibly transmitted soulish energy that might accompany her prayers?
Extending the question a bit more but not unreasonably (not hyperbole I wouldn’t think): since Mel is a movie star and it is conceivable there are others (thousands -- maybe more) watching TV who might also have sympathetic sentiments of concern – and some of whom might have even more soulish energy sentiments (due to heavy crushes perhaps) – does your concept of negative energy transmission indicate that a lot of harm may be impacting upon Mel? Can he be in jeopardy in any way?
It seems to me that your concept implies that. [Did I again pull a SWITCHEROO here?] It seems to me, based on what you have said you don’t think this kind of prayer is a good thing.
Anyway, as for me, I definitely disagree with your concept of soulish energy transmission of harm to the recipient of one’s intercessory prayers.
Moving on to your real world examples:
Example 1: Nicely written. I see what you want to convey by her prayers not being sourced in God’s will. Yet, what you describe is simply that. There is no support in this example that harm came to the recipient of her prayers. Though there is support for the effects of prayer (prayer energy is your point) being manifest in the happenstances of synchronicity. And that’s something I will ponder.
Example 2: Nicely written again. Interesting. Something for me also to take out to the Ponderosa. Thank you. There is support for the effects of prayer (prayer energy) being manifest in the happenstances. Still -- pregnancy is not harm.
Example 3: I don’t like this one at all, Shasha. I’m glad that you didn’t write it. I won’t bother reading Prince’s book then.
This example though, does not address praying FOR others. This example does not speak to intercessory prayer, per se. It is an example of ‘praying down judgment’. And I don’t see that it even demonstrates the spiritual energy you mention in your first two examples.
Re: Prince’s reference to James 3:15: Here I will list verses 3:13 -15 so you have the context for verse 15.
13. If one of you is wise and understanding, let him show this in practice through humility filled with good sense. 14. Should you instead nurse bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, at least refrain from arrogant and false claims against the truth. 15> Wisdom like this does not come from above. It is earthbound, a kind of animal, even devilish, cunning.
For Prince to state verse 15 in support of his conclusion that: “The power working through such prayers is earthly, soulish, demonic.” is a poorly founded statement. (IMO).
Relative to concluding that the two miscarriages were a consequence of this gang’s prayers – that’s a stretch not a ‘credible diagnosis’. That’s a ‘reading in’ of what one wants to believe. That a woman has two consecutive miscarriages is no extraordinary thing. To conclude that their praying was the cause for the miscarriages is in no way validated by such a claim. (IMO). It is not “the only credible diagnosis” as Prince maintains.
Relative to the ‘calling down of judgment’ by that group of men – that was a terrible thing to engage in. That was essentially cursing. That was sinful. God would not honor such prayer. (IMO) Personally I hate such declared-Christian behavior. What a terrible witness. It’s no different than Sharia law. (IMO) Kind of interesting that God would have the woman take the hit in their thinking. She was not an ordained minister. She had the least culpability of any of the characters in the story -- except for the fetus of course! God sure knows how to answer prayer!?? Just think -- those guys are still on some church’s pastoral team -- and believing in the proven power of their prayers! Scarey.
And Prince evidently believes that was the power of their prayer – albeit abusive power. But I don’t think so. Sorry.
Anyway. Thanks. Example two is something to mull over. And we have drawn closer in understanding each other.
I just didn’t like ‘praying *for* others’ to be inhibited by ‘energy transfer’ fears. It is written that one can judge a thing by its fruits. This post extraction was evidence, I thought, of such fear-fruits (inhibitions) being manifested due to the concept of energy transfer:
If we are not clear about ourselves, *best we not pray*. If we feel a "compulsion" to pray for the other, *best we not pray* for them...'cuz we're likely *giving them our own stuff*. Even if we do go ahead and pray, saying something to the effect of, "God, I don't know what is best for __________, so your grace and guidance be with them," but are still at the time holding onto some emotion or compulsion to pray, we may (still) be *doing more harm* than good. So, if we cannot be completely clear and detached (that'll take some work, eh?), it is *best we NOT pray*.
That’s what I meant by troubling to me.
BTW, if I see Mel at my ex’s house – that will really be something. I’ll definitely let you know about it. I’ll scan his autograph or send you a jpeg. Maybe even start some starlet prayers myself.
I looked up some stories of Grigio and Don Bosco--thanks, I enjoyed them. Bosco said Grigio wouldn't accept food in one story I read...now surely he was no ordinary dog!
I did figure out, too, to keep Sunnyboy with me at night outside. At all of 20 pounds, he would keep a coywolf/wolfyote busy munching for long enough for me to run safely into the house. (I'm kidding, Sunnyboy. I will always protect you from coywolves.)
Grigio lived for well over 30 years -- one account said 60 as I recall.
Some have entertained angels unawares scripture tells us. Grigio was a great guardian angel. We should all be so lucky to know our guardian angel's presence -- and so spectacularly.
"I can like that" -- as my toddler daughter used to say.
Paul I do not disagree with you. And I think that what you posted was very well said. I can see feel energy, so to me it is not magic. To me it is just using one's will and desire to manipulate energy. And just for the record, there are folks that are way better at it than I am because I do not want to be better at it. My goal is to walk with God, I have no desire to seek personal power. When it comes to things that effect other people I am inclined to put it into God's hands, sometimes with an aggressive attitude but I still put it in God's hands and His will be done. God does have a grasp of the bigger picture that I do not have.
Just out of curiosity guys, why would one invoke a saint when one can invoke God in the name of Jesus Christ?
I makes no sense to me.
Paul, and All,
Some follow-on thoughts relating to your comment below which stems from the ‘White Magic’ Thread and your post of 17 May 8:31 PM
“If you remember, Shasha's statement about Kristi's energy affecting her friend began from the point of a first-hand experience. That is, Kristi posted that her praying for someone led to a transmission of energy, the results of which she felt negatively impacted her. From this point, someone responding to that statement can either a: discredit the related first-hand experience (i.e. "That's not what really happened, you've misinterpreted your experience") or b: take it at face value and reply based on that premise.”
Actually, I took a third option in a PM I had sent to Kristi, and perhaps it’s worth bringing to the table here for everyone’s consideration. It could be called an option c: or option (a-prime) since it’s not so very far from your option a: -- but maybe far enough, maybe different enough.
That third option was to: not discredit her experience, but to discuss the possible other alternatives to her interpretation that might be applicable and valid as well. In this option there is no put-down, but a call to reconsider or at least postpone immediate conclusions. And so, let’s together see if there might be some value in reconsidering. And we can discuss them and their possible validity.
Here are a few extractions from a past PM to Kristi that address other alternatives for consideration:
“As far as I perceived, when you read your acquaintance’s email requesting prayer you had 3 possible options available to you:
1. Pray for her/him per their request -- (which you did in keeping with the golden rule, which anyone might have done and which is typically proper and sensible).
2. Ignore the request.
3. Deny the request and respond with some rationale relative to why you couldn’t or wouldn’t.
When you decided to pray (itself a good act), quite naturally you had no foreknowledge concerning what might evolve later during your day.
Whatever did evolve in your day may have been attributable to your praying or may not have been. But evidently you had a terrible day and still reel a bit from it all.
The hurts, the injustices, that you have been through over the course of your life is very significant and will take time and God’s continued grace to fully complete. What you experienced in your day that day may have been what might have bubbled up even without the praying you did – (praying which bore fruit based on subsequent email). There may well be a substantial amount of psychic pus (my conceptualizing words) that needs to be bled out over time since your psyche has been so infected and wounded as a result of what you’ve been through. Inner healing of memories takes a good deal of time. Our nature cannot handle fast healing of psychological hurts. Heck, the hurting took place over a good deal of your life. We are not switches that get flipped and zap we are instantly healed.
I do have some experience in trekking through the morass of swill that sometimes accompanies the simplest right act. What you trek through is introspection, doubts, heaviness, myriad thoughts about whether or not what you did is right or stupid or foolish; whether or not it was motivated by your false self or true self, whether or not you should risk doing whatever you did do again. You hear all the social wisdom that is skeptical or cynical of whatever you did.
The other reality that might (might) be in play of course is spiritual warfare. Evil has assailed you all your life – to varying intensities and at varying times. You are in the process of shucking it all off once and for all and receiving God’s healing and consolation. It could be perhaps that evil knows its time is short and that you are healing and God’s intervention in your life is being realized and is being noticed by others. It doesn’t want to witness your triumph. It doesn’t want to witness the extension of your triumph toward assistance to others either.
There is so much that is mystery.”
In summary then, there were two alternatives that I posited for consideration over and above her emotional travail that day having been a direct consequence of her responding to a prayer request: 1). the bubbling up from her unconscious what might well have bubbled up *even if she hadn’t prayed for another* that day. (Is this not a viable possibility?) I am no psychologist but to me it seems quite viable as a possibility, especially based upon what Kristi has been through and what is going on in her life as she comes to the Lord.
2). Spiritual warfare. This can occur whether or not one is praying for others, though certainly it might also be a consequence of praying for others at times.
Regarding alternative 1): Even without intense healing of memories / inner-healing *currently* being experienced in one’s life, Fr. Thomas Keating in his books on contemplative prayer addresses the bubbling up from one’s unconscious of psychic material that is a result of God’s action through contemplative prayer in bringing about healing and growth. Those of you who might have his book Intimacy With God can refer to his chapter 8 therein on the Psychology of Centering Prayer and peek at his diagrams 6 & 7.
Tuck, Gail just posted a great essay on praying to saints in the "Praying to Saints" thread.
Interesting, Tuck. I know the Father loves you and wants to protect you. I can see feel that...
I like what you said about your ethics concerning energy manipulation. It's too easy to get burned playing with energy, even if we don't mean any harm, and none of us are totally free of aggression anyway. Best to take the path of meekness, to remember we are sheep and desperately need the Shepherd.
Christ's peace to you and your family
You seem to have some fairly intimate knowledge of this. If you don't mind my asking, how did you come to be knowledgable about this topic? I know you said on the other thread that you feel energy in your body and can readily control it. Years ago I recall working out at the gym one day and I suddenly noticed I could make energy go up my body--at will. I'd pull my arms up to do a bicep curl with some hand weights and imagine/will the energy to go up with each repetition, and it just obeyed. I've had some very weird experiences of my thoughts / prayers causing things to happen that I really didn't intend, the near death, OBE experience I shared on the other thread being one of them, the first. That was spontaneous and by no means related to the 'occult' per se. But since then other things too that caused great harm to me, what I shared with Tuck about "getting burned."
For me, these experiences are generally too personal to share here, and maybe for you guys also, so I don't mean to pry and do respect caution around any discussion of this topic. At the same time, denying the reality of energy manipulation especially as it affects other people is not a helpful stance in todays 'new age wonderland.' The law of attraction and what's promoted in books like The Secret, for instance, obviously have a great deal of validity. So we can't merely dismiss them as 'the occult' and turn our face away. So as Christians I feel we need to know and talk effectively about Who God is beyond energy/thought power, beyond these natural/supernatural abilities that more and more people have access to as time goes on.
Here's a sample of what I think many people believe about thought power as it is confounded with prayer. It's written by a self-proclaimed 'Christian witch' ( ) but her position is more typical than not of many new-age folks for whom God = universe.
There are many debates regarding that differences between magick and prayer, but for me, as well as many other Christian Witches, magick and prayer are essentially the same thing in that the both attempt to achieve a result through energy work. To understand this you must understand how I view God and the universe. Magick involves directing energy in the universe to achieve a result. Prayer involves asking a higher power (in my case God) to achieve the result for you. In my case, I see God and the universe as one and the same. Therefore, whether I pray or conduct magick I am still utilizing the same energies.
Pop-pop, you are a gift to psychological healing and the understanding of God. Kudos to you Pop-pop things are going to get interesting .
The energy manipulation is no big deal. Anyone can learn it quickly and easily (within the first sitting). When I was a teenager I read a book about astral projection written by Robert Bruce. In addition to writing a whole bunch of new age nonsense, he also put together a very useful little manual called "NEW Energy Ways" which teaches the reader how to sense and control energy through what he termed "tactile imaging," essentially moving one's awareness around the body by imagining feelings. The manual takes you through making various imaginary action on all of the lesser chakras and energy centers around the body, culminating in a smooth "full body circuit" and eventually work on major chakras. This manual is free and is easily found through a Google search.
We can talk more about energy any time, but I believe your real question was about magic? I'm familiar with what some people call magic not because of any negative experience, but from my studying of Jewish mysticism, i.e. Kabbalah. I was involved in studying the names of angels in Hebrew and what they meant, and from there took on a multi-year group study of the Hebrew alphabet. This isn't magic per se, but is the symbolic "infrastructure" with which magical acts can be taken. That is to say, taking basic building blocks like the letters and rearranging them into words creates complex strings of symbolic meaning, and "sinking" those strings into the unconscious mind will eventually cause those symbols to seem to manifest themselves in a person's subjective life. This principle can be seen at work in mundane ways, such as if you're obsessing about a certain kind of car, that type of car might suddenly seem to turn up everywhere you go. It seems as if your thoughts are making the car appear, but really you've just increased your perceptual acuity for that specific car.
This is how most real, effective magic works. One creates a symbol that symbolizes a particular goal, and through meditation and/or ritual or other means sinks that symbol into the mind. This process acts to "prime" the unconscious to increase perceptual acuity for goal-related opportunities and events, which leads us to stumble into the manifestation of our goal without really trying. Where this gets truly "magical" is if we consider that the Self is involved in this process on a spiritual level, transcending space and time and attracting these opportunities into our path. This is not "white" magic or "black" magic or really magic at all. It simply is, and works based on principles and spiritual and natural dynamics that God created and put in place, the same as the laws of physics IMO.
I'm focusing on symbols here rather than energy simply because one way we might transfer energy accidentally (possibly giving but also likely taking) is by projecting some archetype or symbolic person who lives in our mind on to another person about whom we are intensely thinking or praying. Again, the efficiency of the act will depend on the intensity of our focus as well as the accuracy and similarity between the image in our minds and the person on whom we have overlaid/projected it.
How does this all relate to prayer? I think the difference is that with prayer, we are mainly passive, though I believe God uses the same principles that I've laid out here, along with many others that I don't know about. I wouldn't take too seriously someone who calls herself a "Christian witch," as she likely doesn't know what that means (I don't either). People with only vague ideas about who God is, and his relationship to "the universe" are typically very bad at anything resembling magic because they lack the fortitude and will to set clear goals and follow through with them. They're usually just deluding themselves, but luckily God still loves them anyway.
Anyway, I don't want to hijack the whole thread, but if anything I've said doesn't make sense or is unclear let me know and I'll try to clarify. And also for the record this is just a piece of my personal understanding of the issue, and I have no papal infallability to claim on the subject.
Paul, much of what you're describing above about how "magic" works resonates with Jung's writings on synchronicity. I also agree that God can and does use that dynamic, as it's in the natural order of things, though more on a metaphysical than psychological or biological level. I've often thought that to hold another in prayer, or to attend to them in prayer, goes beyond this natural level, as it invites God into the kinds of bonds we create with our minds and intentions, or which we are already in the grip of. Who knows but that God might even be the One to give us the idea to do so in the first place?
Anyway, very good post, and thank you for sharing of your experience.
You might enjoy Jim Arraj's reflections on some of this.
What is funny about waking up the energy centers is that they are all suppose to be awake and on in the first place in order to maintain body health.
And having them awake and on really slows down the aging process or stop the aging process completely. When one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit these energy centers automatically wake up and are on. Somewhere Jesus mentioned that those that follow Him shall never taste death. There might have been a physical reason for Him saying that.
Only God can truly teach one about God, no human being ever can. Jesus said, "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me and I am in you."
This places the Holy Presence inside of us if we allow ourselves to be indwelt by the Holy Presence. From there the Holy Presence of God can directly share His experience with us and we are walking with God.
oh and this overtime you become what you channel. Personally I do not consider involving God in things as magic, so I am probably off topic here.
Thanks for the link, Phil, I enjoyed the essay. Something I found while studying the Aleph-beit is that I agree with Jung about a lot of things. The bit about "meaning" being the medium through which the inner and outer worlds are connected was a big breakthrough for me at the time. The Jewish mystics thought of the letters of the aleph-beit as the building blocks of creation (makes sense, as God spoke the world into existence), and one of the things they meant by that is that they represent the psychic structure or framework through which this inner/outer connection happens. I won't get into it too much here, but to give an example, the first letter, Aleph, means "one," or singularity, and then second letter, Beit, means 2, or duality. Beit also means "house," which leads to the idea of "inner" and "outer," and the separation between the two. The third letter, Gimel, is 3, and is said to represent "the rich man giving to the poor man," and so we can see the beginning here of creation flowing from inside to outside. The further we go down the line of letters, the more complex and nuanced it becomes, but the lesson ultimately is that what happens in the world of *action* begins in the world before thought.
I agree wholeheartedly that prayer involving the Holy Spirit goes beyond what we can do naturally, and this is true because of Christ. I also believe that God chooses to use us in most cases to be channels for the manifestation of His will, through prayer in the Holy Spirit as well as through more "natural" means. Though it seems like he'd have a much easier time of it if he'd just do it himself
Just for fun Paul, explain why this fellow can do what he can do.
Either you claim that he is subconsciously creating a reality or that the whole thing is a hokes or there is something else involved?
He has actually agreed to be studied by medical science and India is just the beginning.
If one's subconscious mind can create that reality, then where do we all go from there?
I know how he is doing what he is doing and yes he is a Hindu and yes he is actually real.
No clue, Tuck.
I didn't mean to come off as if I were being confrontational or that I'm trying to explain away divine intervention, because I'm not. Do I think most things considered magic have reasonable metaphysical explanations behind them (to most people these explanations wouldn't carry any weight anyway)? Yes, I do, though I don't claim to know what all of them are. And I can't even say it will be profitable in all cases to even attempt to figure them out. What I CAN say is that human beings have immense creative powers that lie beneath the unconscious mind, because we are made in the image of God.
That said, this guy seems to have something special going on, though I don't know exactly how useful of a gift it is, except for the incredible savings of not having a grocery bill and the potential to make an awesome astronaut.
other great mystics in their christian walk have also not eaten or drank anything for years.. Teresa Newman ( within the Catholic tradition) also did not eat or drink anything for over 30 years.. other than the Most Holy Eucharist. she also was given the grace of the stigmata...
amazing to see such grace given to people , regardless what religion they attend .....
as far as how useful this gift is.... i would say that folks like this man and Teresa Newman, live on Divine nourishment... i don't think they are to concerned about savings on the grocery bill
Sorry to be so vague, terse, fragmented here when I said:
"But you're SO RIGHT. Let's keep an eye on the fruit...not the forbidden kind."
I was referring to your comment in your last post: "It is written that we can judge a thing by it's fruit." You pointed out that warnings about energy transfers through soulish prayers (inadvertant white magic, I'm calling it) would serve to inhibit good Christians from praying. [And I did acknowledge that your post produced good fruit for me as I became aware of a possible scheme of satan to scar me/us from praying, if I were to carry my concerns too far or lead others to do so]
You see bad fruit. You provided a quote from a poster who said something like: better off not to pray at all if you're mixed up about them, etc., citing that as fear-fruit. I actually considered it a reasonable response, a discerning one...?
Derek Prince [I know you don't like him but he does have a lot of field experience that we don't and gave his life as Christ's servant in ministry] shares that he does not launch into praying, intercessory, for somebody unless he is sure within his heart that he has a sufficient degree of gratitude for them. Very interesting. Wise, methinks. Brilliant. Not fearful in a neurotic, obsessive way.
In a private conversation with a very highly respected leader in charismatic healing prayer, this person shared that somebody asked her if they could pray for her as one of her intercessors and she thought, "No thanks, I don't want all your junk." Both she and Prince are Spirit-filled, charismatic people who have 30 plus years experience with healing prayer. They know something about energy transfer through prayer.
I don't have a clue about the fate of Mel Gibson, but I do know many are grateful for what's he's done and pray for his healing. I'm glad to know people pray for him with concern and love.
Anyway, I agree with the principal of judging something by it's fruit, that's why I said you're SO RIGHT, in all caps because I was saying it emphatically. I feel you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY, excellent point made: let's keep an eye on the fruit of my ill-fated "white magic" comment.
The "forbidden fruit" piece was a joke. You know, the Garden of Eden fruit? Obviously not effective as a joke, as you queried me privately about what the heck was I talkin' about...forgot to add the
Is that clear now?
No, I don't think it's the same thing. This man reported being blessed by the goddess, which changed him thereafter. She is a whole other spiritual being doing the feeding than in the case of the Christian mystics.
In my crash course on goddess worship, I learned that her ecstasy is such that people who get hooked on her feedings have no use for the mundane world.
My own experience agrees with this. And nor would I esteem the 30 year foodless yogi!
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